When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

[Colt]

But aren't you presuming the gospel accounts of what Jews at the time thought to be accurate? If the gospels are suspect then why think that their version of what Jews at the time said or thought is any less suspect?

The entire Bible is suspect and flawed, written and rewritten by imperfect holy men with various agendas over the ages. But that's all we had to work with at least up until the Urantia Book revelation which is the source of my theology.

Today when Jewish opponents to Jesus as Messiah state their objections, they use the same Torah that was in existence in the times of Jesus. Can we assume that the expectations of a "coming Messiah or Moshiach" were based on the same requirements that are currently used in opposition to Jesus?

 

[101G]

That would suggest that Shiloh was appointed, or predestined to that office. So we could ask the question, when?

Good point, and good question. answer, Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

the term seed here is singular, but it's Spiritual in nature. let's look at the definition,
H2233 זֶרַע zera` (zeh'-rah) n-m.
1. seed.
2. (figuratively) fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity.
[from H2232]
KJV: X carnally, child, fruitful, seed(-time), sowing- time.
Root(s): H2232

my source for this definition is the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

Notice, the KIV can translate this "SEED", as "child" but also notice the word before it,,,, "carnally" meaning of the flesh. but it's of the Woman and not the Man/male, because the seed in the man is passed down in Generations. now with the sin NATURE, the man seed is no good, (spiritually). so, by the Woman the sin NATURE is not inherited. this is why in Jeremiah God said Jeremiah 31:22 "How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man." and this is backed up in Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

see it now? a Child is "BORN" just as seed states in Genesis 3:15, "carnally, child, this woman to bare a .... "CHILD/FLESH is not known, (or have sex of a man). ..... scripture, Luke 1:26 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth," Luke 1:27 "To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary." (NOTICE, IT SAID A, A, A, virgin, AND THEN IDENTIFIES HER, MARY, AS "THE" virgin, the right one for this task). Luke 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Luke 1:29 "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be." Luke 1:30 "And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God." Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS." Luke 1:32 "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:" Luke 1:33 "And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Luke 1:34 "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (BINGO THERE IT IS). Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Mary, the surrogate mother, who is a virgin is having a "CHILD" without the sperm of a man. this is of God, again, Spiritual in Nature

and this is BACKED up in Isaiah 9:6 again, NOTICE the breakdown. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

there it is that "CHILD"/SEED, of a woman Genesis 3:15, is Born of God, and NOT man ...... the ONLY BGEGOTTEN of the Father. notice a "CHILD" is born, but the Son is GIVEN, .... the Son not Born. but the Flesh, CARNAL, of Genesis 3:15 is what the Son came in. for the Son is not of this world. supportive scripture, John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." IF HE'S NOT OF THIS WORLD THEN HE'S NOT BORN IN THIS WORLD. this is why as I said the SEED is Spiritual in NATURE. and all who is of God, is "BORN AGAIN" is in Christ Jesus, Galatians 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."

now, let's see why this seed is so important of the Woman. 2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." (WHY?), 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; (THE FALLEN IMAGE "MAN". HAS FALLEN, BABLYON HAS FALLEN, FALLEN), behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:18 "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;"

this is why the "SEED" one, is so important, reconciliation. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

God own ARM, his SEED in Flesh, born of a Woman, without a man.

so nPeace is CORRECT, and on the money. for this is how Jacob, KNEW, and USED the term "shiloh".

101G.

 

[rosends]

The entire Bible is suspect and flawed, written and rewritten by imperfect holy men with various agendas over the ages. But that's all we had to work with at least up until the Urantia Book revelation which is the source of my theology.

Today when Jewish opponents to Jesus as Messiah state their objections, they use the same Torah that was in existence in the times of Jesus. Can we assume that the expectations of a "coming Messiah or Moshiach" were based on the same requirements that are currently used in opposition to Jesus?

sure but not through the lens of the gospels. If you want to consider the Jewish ideas, it should be through authentic Jewish sources, not based on the assumption that the gospel version of how people used those sources is right.

 

[Colt]

sure but not through the lens of the gospels. If you want to consider the Jewish ideas, it should be through authentic Jewish sources, not based on the assumption that the gospel version of how people used those sources is right.

Lets just assume that there was a Jesus person, that he was a spiritual teacher and was regarded by his followers as the promised Messiah. What sources would we use apart from the Gospels to ascertain what the concept of a Messianic figure would have been at that time? Setting aside the incongruence of the NT Gospels, what were the Jewish people looking for in that day?

 

[rosends]

Lets just assume that there was a Jesus person, that he was a spiritual teacher and was regarded by his followers as the promised Messiah. What sources would we use apart from the Gospels to ascertain what the concept of a Messianic figure would have been at that time? Setting aside the incongruence of the NT Gospels, what were the Jewish people looking for in that day?

I don't have to grant any of that as it only comes to muddy the waters. How about sticking only to the Talmud and medrashic texts?

 

[Colt]

I don't have to grant any of that as it only comes to muddy the waters. How about sticking only to the Talmud and medrashic texts?

Sure, what were the expectations of a coming Messiah in Israel around 2023 years ago?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

*** I have conceded that Christians forced Jesus into some OT scriptures that had not previously been considered messianic. These Jewish followers of Jesus naturally sought to justify their conversion to the Jesus movement by pointing to OT scripture in order to buttress their decision. They didn't need to do that, Jesus didn't use the scripture to establish his authority.

Thus, all of that is something that Christians have to wrestle with and settle with among themselves.

We Torath Mosheh Jews have a directive to stay far out of it.

 

[nPeace]

Galatians requires a hyper-literal understanding of the word seed. Here's the verse:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.​

Who's seed? It's Eve's seed. That's literally what it says.

Resectfully, referring me to Revelations is changing the subject, and switching to a different author.

Here's what Paul says:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
​

Ummm He saith not seed of God neither, He saith seed of Eve.

​

Just about anyone can understand that "seed" is referring to her offspring, plural. Here it is on the JW website:

View attachment 70613

So, if Paul is going to be hyper-literal about the word "seed" he also needs to be hyper-literal about who's seed that is. It's Eve's seed literally. Thus Christ is not the son of God without adding to or changing the story.

It's perfectly fine to go non-literal with the prophecy, but then the entire prophecy needs to allow a non-literal approach which means, the seed of Eve could be the progeny of Eve, not just one person.

Not necessarily.
The seed is so mentioned, as the Christ, or Messiah is primary focus.
Hence the prophecy says, "he will bruise you in the head; you will bruise him in the heel".

Both the Messiah, and the chief enemy - Satan, are key players, but the prophecy is not locked exclusively on those, as is explained in later scriptures.

We have to remember... or rather, we should give consideration to the understanding that if the scriptures are from God, then we do not get everything from one book.
God always progressively reveals things... especially what is refered to in scripture as the "sacred secret", or mystery.
That was not revealed until later.

Even the serpents identity was not revealed until later.
Though many people do not accept the entire Bible, nor see it as one harmonious book, there is a reason I do.
It proves to be. 2 Timothy 3:16

Galatians 3:29 reveals that the seed is not just one, but the reason Paul mentions one, is because the father gave the kingdom to the Messiah. God appointed him to it, but others were foreordained to be part of that kingdom - the seed.
Ephesians 1:5; Luke 22:28-30

Throughout generations God was making this known though... not that anyone understood it.

(Exodus 19:5-6) 5 Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ . . .

Revelation 5:10 ...and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

It would be quite a long night, to have to go through all the scripture, so I will just provide the details.

The nation of Israel was to produce the kings and priest.
Jesus came looking for the "lost sheep" (Matthew 15:24) and the fruit that went with that. He found none.

Thus the kingdom was taken away from the nation of Israel, and given to a nation producing fruit. (Matthew 23:37, 38)
(Matthew 21:43)

What nation was that? Spiritual Israel - made up of both Jews and Gentiles who were faithful. (Galatians 6:16) (Romans 9:6)

So the seed of Abraham, are really, those who will rule as kings and priest, who will crush the head of the serpent.
Daniel 7:27; Daniel 7:22; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:29; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 7:1-4; Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:4-6

Revelation 12 identifies the players in the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.

 

[nPeace]

Because the fragmented narrative concerning the descendants of Eves 2 different blood lines battling it out over the ages has nothing to do with the foreshadowing of the Jewish Messiah.

"Eves 2 different blood lines battling it out over the ages"? What do you mean?

 

[rosends]

Sure, what were the expectations of a coming Messiah in Israel around 2023 years ago?

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108400/jewish/The-End-of-Days.htm

 

[Colt]

"Eves 2 different blood lines battling it out over the ages"? What do you mean?

In my theology the conflict was between Adam and Eves pure line children (her seed) versus the descendants of Cains real father (his seed). Adam and Eve arrived on a very old, previously evolved, populated and fallen earth. The "sin" of Eve was mating with a Nodite. In short she was convinced by the "crafty beast" that such a union would help the situation on earth. When the other tribes loyal to the garden discovered what had happened they were enraged! War raged for ages! In a sense the conflict still goes on today at the "mouth of the garden", Syria.

 

[nPeace]

In my theology the conflict was between Adam and Eves pure line children (her seed) versus the descendants of Cains real father (his seed). Adam and Eve arrived on a very old, previously evolved, populated and fallen earth. The "sin" of Eve was mating with a Nodite. In short she was convinced by the "crafty beast" that such a union would help the situation on earth. When the other tribes loyal to the garden discovered what had happened they were enraged! War raged for ages! In a sense the conflict still goes on today at the "mouth of the garden", Syria.

That explains it.
Sound like a script any carpenter might write.
Why do you accept it though?

 

[Colt]

That explains it.
Sound like a script any carpenter might write.
Why do you accept it though?

Makes sense to me all things considered. I never believed that eating an apple changed the world. By the time the Hebrew priests were creating their story of origins much of the original story from Mesopotamia was lost.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..................*** Have Jews traditionally interpreted Genesis 3:15 as a reference to the Messiah? What about Christians, where do you first see a specific reference to a Messiah in scripture?

Don't know about the Jews, but yes the 'first prophecy' (Gen. 3:15) Jesus proved to be that promised 'seed' (Messiah)
Jesus as Messiah will bruise (crush) Satan in the head, a death blow according to Hebrews 2:14 B.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............... I never believed that eating an apple changed the world..................

I find the Law of the Land (of Eden) was if you eat from the one forbidden tree you will die.
Out of all the trees all over Earth only one single tree was off limits.
It was as if God put up a No trespassing sign on just one particular tree.
The un-named fruit was Not poison but the breaking of the Law is what carried with it the death penalty.
Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life on Earth as long as they did Not break that one-and-only Law.
Satan worked through Adam and Eve, and God works through His Son Jesus.
Satan introduced sin into Eden and Adam choose to deliberately follow Satan leading to death in the world.
On the other hand, we are innocent of what fallen father Adam did and that is why God is working through Jesus to undo 'enemy death' for us - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................Do you mean some future king? Because kings were also anointed (and therefore, "messiahs"). Look in the biblical discussion of the anointing of kings like Saul or David.

Yes, I agree that Messiah (ma.shiahh) means anointed one.
Saul proved un-faithful, but David proved faithful.
Thus, through David's 'seed' would be the future coming Messiah - 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; Daniel 9:25-26

 

[Shaul]

The reason that there are no Jewish descendants today of the apostles is becuse Jesus as well as his followers were largely rejected by Jews and Judaism. Jesus was killed and so were his apostles mostly chased down and killed. A religion about Jesus found a more receptive audience among the Gentiles and Pagan adherents to the Mystery religions.

It's not surprising that the families of the apostles or early believers did not become Christians. Many were killed by the armies of Titus.


34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.36A man’s enemies will be the members

of his own household.

Today Jewish activists are still trying to discredit Jesus.

Malarky. "Jewish activists"[sic] aren't trying to discredit Jesus. Jews have no desire to discredit Jesus. Jews just stand by Torah. If that is a problem for Christians, that is their problem. Jews have no need to discredit Jesus. Christians themselves discredit Jesus by their actions and examples.

 

[Shaul]

I reiterate that the Jewish people living in the times of Jesus ALSO had specific expectations which they derived from those "implicit" references among the prophets which btw are open to wide interpretation. I assume it's the same source that Judaism uses today in the development of a moshiach messiah.

* The assumption (by his followers) that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah was false, his kingdom was spiritual not material Israel.

* The confusion of the Christian Messiah is further compounded by the development of a theology that Jesus would someday return to do what he failed to do (as Messiah or moshiach) the first go around.

* To date the concept of a moshiach or whatever was expected at the time of Jesus, before, during, after and up until today, remains MIA!

* It's possible that someone like Melchizedek returns in the role of Messiah while Jesus remains the Son of God in his rightful place in heaven.

You just don't seem to get it. Let me put it this way. The Jews don't have a "Messiah", they have a moshiach. Because "Messiah" and moshiach are fundamentally different things.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.............. Christians themselves discredit Jesus by their actions and examples.

I find Jesus forewarns us about the chaff weed/tares and the wheat growing together until the Harvest Time.
The weed/tares are the ones Jesus is referring to at Matthew 7:21-23; 13:38
That does Not mean wheat Christians discredit Jesus by their actions and examples.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You just don't seem to get it. Let me put it this way. The Jews don't have a "Messiah", they have a moshiach. Because "Messiah" and moshiach are fundamentally different things.

.... any thoughts about the anointed one of Daniel 9:24-27