When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

[Shaul]

I find Jesus forewarns us about the chaff weed/tares and the wheat growing together until the Harvest Time.
The weed/tares are the ones Jesus is referring to at Matthew 7:21-23; 13:38
That does Not mean wheat Christians discredit Jesus by their actions and examples.

Care to provide an example of a Christian you think lives a life that brings credit to Jesus?

 

[Shaul]

.... any thoughts about the anointed one of Daniel 9:24-27

Which anointed one? There are clearly two.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

.... any thoughts about the anointed one of Daniel 9:24-27

Yes. See the video below where I show what the Hebrew/Aramaic of Daniel actually says.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Today when Jewish opponents to Jesus as Messiah state their objections

FYI, there are no "Jewish opponents to jesus" either the historical one(s) or the mythological concept. The only reason that jesus even comes up for the vast majority of non-jesus beleiving Jews is because of Christian missionary activity to convert Jews to jesus belief.

If Christian missionary activity to convert Jews didn't exist jesus would not even be a talking point for most Jews.

i.e. like I mentioned before jesus is not relevant for us Jews and it is the existance of Christian missionaries to convert Jews that force us to even talk about it. (historically or mythologically)

 

[Colt]

You just don't seem to get it. Let me put it this way. The Jews don't have a "Messiah", they have a moshiach. Because "Messiah" and moshiach are fundamentally different things.

I get it, you are playing word games despite the fact that many Jews use the term Jewish Messiah when they describe what they expect him to be as contrasted with what Jesus did or did not do.

 

[Colt]

Malarky. "Jewish activists"[sic] aren't trying to discredit Jesus. Jews have no desire to discredit Jesus. Jews just stand by Torah. If that is a problem for Christians, that is their problem. Jews have no need to discredit Jesus. Christians themselves discredit Jesus by their actions and examples.

Today it’s more of a defense against Christian missionaries. In the times of Christ on earth it was the effort to stop Jesus’ public teaching.

 

[Colt]

FYI, there are no "Jewish opponents to jesus" either the historical one(s) or the mythological concept. The only reason that jesus even comes up for the vast majority of non-jesus beleiving Jews is because of Christian missionary activity to convert Jews to jesus belief.

If Christian missionary activity to convert Jews didn't exist jesus would not even be a talking point for most Jews.

i.e. like I mentioned before jesus is not relevant for us Jews and it is the existance of Christian missionaries to convert Jews that force us to even talk about it. (historically or mythologically)

When the Sanhedrin put Jesus through a trumped up trial and rushed to have Pilate carry out an unjust execution, they thought that they were getting rid of the Jesus problem. It had really only just begun. It was tragic but predicted.

 

[Colt]

I find the Law of the Land (of Eden) was if you eat from the one forbidden tree you will die.
Out of all the trees all over Earth only one single tree was off limits.
It was as if God put up a No trespassing sign on just one particular tree.
The un-named fruit was Not poison but the breaking of the Law is what carried with it the death penalty.
Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life on Earth as long as they did Not break that one-and-only Law.
Satan worked through Adam and Eve, and God works through His Son Jesus.
Satan introduced sin into Eden and Adam choose to deliberately follow Satan leading to death in the world.
On the other hand, we are innocent of what fallen father Adam did and that is why God is working through Jesus to undo 'enemy death' for us - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

What makes more sense to me is the teaching that these 2 very important, educated adults (son and daughter of God) that "suddenly appear" in history, knew what the will of God was concerning how they were to proceed with their administration. The evil one, who had already fallen, managed to outflank the pair and lead them into default. Eve's sin had biological consequences to her descendants among the people of the earth, the pains of childbirth.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

When the Sanhedrin put Jesus through a trumped up trial and rushed to have Pilate carry out an unjust execution, they thought that they were getting rid of the Jesus problem. It had really only just begun. It was tragic but predicted.

What you have quoted is the claim that the NT authors constructred in Greek with no evidence that any of them were there to see the legal proceedings they supposidly claim happened. There is no evidence that such an event happened, let alone their unsourced version of it. Besides, they wrote in Greek about an event that would have had to historically taken place in Hebrew. Thus, furthering the reality that they made the story up for political reasons.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The following may of interest.

Historical Problems in the Trial(s) & Crucifixion in the Gospels

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This is also interesting.

 

[Colt]

What you have quoted is the claim that the NT authors constructred in Greek with no evidence that any of them were there to see the legal proceedings they supposidly claim happened. There is no evidence that such an event happened, let alone their unsourced version of it. Besides, they wrote in Greek about an event that would have had to historically taken place in Hebrew. Thus, furthering the reality that they made the story up for political reasons.

Aramaic was the predominant language spoken in public during the times of Jesus. Hebrew made a resurgence as a common language later. So the Gospels were a translation from Aramaic into Greek.

In the same way that there are no historical witnesses to the wildly exaggerated claims of the Torah, neither do we have any for the NT. Secular history books mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures ironically vanished from history.

I think the Jews and atheists made up the story that Jesus never really existed for their own reasons. You've proven my point that you are STILL trying to get rid of Jesus! You were being disingenuous when you claimed the "live and let live" stuff.

 

[Colt]

This is also interesting.

Jesus left no writings lest they become the kind of "fetish" that the Hebrew scriptures became long after the entirely human origins of those writings.

The followers of Jesus seem to have assumed that the Son of God would soon return from heaven to fulfill the expectations of the Jewish Messiah. So there was some delay in the writings of the Gospel accounts. The gospels are not perfect, but all things considered, if someone were perpetuating a fraud then they would have done a much better job. Scribes appear to have remained true to what they inherited.

IMOP this addresses the common sence of scripture:

"Moses, in the addition of the second commandment to the ancient Dalamatian moral code, made an effort to control fetish worship among the Hebrews. He carefully directed that they should make no sort of image that might become consecrated as a fetish. He made it plain, "You shall not make a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters of the earth." While this commandment did much to retard art among the Jews, it did lessen fetish worship. But Moses was too wise to attempt suddenly to displace the olden fetishes, and he therefore consented to the putting of certain relics alongside the law in the combined war altar and religious shrine which was the ark.

Words eventually became fetishes, more especially those which were regarded as God's words; in this way the sacred books of many religions have become fetishistic prisons incarcerating the spiritual imagination of man. Moses' very effort against fetishes became a supreme fetish; his commandment was later used to stultify art and to retard the enjoyment and adoration of the beautiful.

In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties. Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round." UB 1955

 

[101G]

In my theology the conflict was between Adam and Eves pure line children (her seed) versus the descendants of Cains real father (his seed). Adam and Eve arrived on a very old, previously evolved, populated and fallen earth. The "sin" of Eve was mating with a Nodite. In short she was convinced by the "crafty beast" that such a union would help the situation on earth. When the other tribes loyal to the garden discovered what had happened they were enraged! War raged for ages! In a sense the conflict still goes on today at the "mouth of the garden", Syria.

GINOLJC, to all.
The bible doesn't agree that scenario. Adam and Eve had children in the garden before they had children outside the Garden, (see Genesis 3:16). the children that were born unto them before the Fall into sin was the righteous line, (the son of God, see chapter 6). the Children born unto them outside the Garden after the Fall is the unrighteous, or fallen line, from Adam and Eve.

and as Genesis 6 states, "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

these "sons of God" was the Offspring of Adam and Eve from within the Garden. before the Fall. the only difference between "sons of God, the righteous without sin, and the daughter of men, the unrighteous, with the stigma of sin" is their character, or the characteristics of the person. it has nothing to do with one sex/Gender, or their fleshly nature, but the identity of the way one acts. either in obedience to God, or not. supportive scripture, Matthew 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

John the Baptist called them, (the Pharisees and Sadducees, the RULER of the Jews) ..... Snakes. or serpents, vipers. were they slithering along on the ground? no, or did they have scaly skin? no. but they did have a fork tongue, not physically, but the metaphor indicated they lie, just like their daddy the devil. ..... LIED TO MOTHER EVEN IN THE GARDEN.

understand, not everyone of Adam decent sinned as he did, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

now, did one see it? if not, "who is the figure of him that was to come." who came? Shiloh, the Christ, the Messiah. WHY? to destroy the work of the devil. to eliminate sin and restore man back to God in Fellowship.

this is why the Lord Jesus said, "I come in the volume written of Me". and yes, there is volumes written of him in the OT scriptures, as we have aee in just a few example, but there is much more.

so, the influence of the devil/serpent was of a spiritual nature, (One's
character either in obedience to God or Not..... for the term "son", is metaphorically speaking of prominent moral characteristics, (see G5207, huios) this is why the title Son of Man is Given to the Lord Jesus. as a man in the LIKENESS of sinful Flesh, is his characteristics to ...... "OBEY", which is our EXAMPLE to follow.

a re-reading of this post is worthwhile for your edification, and also for bible clarity.

101G.

 

[Colt]

GINOLJC, to all.
The bible doesn't agree that scenario. Adam and Eve had children in the garden before they had children outside the Garden, (see Genesis 3:16). the children that were born unto them before the Fall into sin was the righteous line, (the son of God, see chapter 6). the Children born unto them outside the Garden after the Fall is the unrighteous, or fallen line, from Adam and Eve.

and as Genesis 6 states, "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

these "sons of God" was the Offspring of Adam and Eve from within the Garden. before the Fall. the only difference between "sons of God, the righteous without sin, and the daughter of men, the unrighteous, with the stigma of sin" is their character, or the characteristics of the person. it has nothing to do with one sex/Gender, or their fleshly nature, but the identity of the way one acts. either in obedience to God, or not. supportive scripture, Matthew 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

John the Baptist called them, (the Pharisees and Sadducees, the RULER of the Jews) ..... Snakes. or serpents, vipers. were they slithering along on the ground? no, or did they have scaly skin? no. but they did have a fork tongue, not physically, but the metaphor indicated they lie, just like their daddy the devil. ..... LIED TO MOTHER EVEN IN THE GARDEN.

understand, not everyone of Adam decent sinned as he did, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

now, did one see it? if not, "who is the figure of him that was to come." who came? Shiloh, the Christ, the Messiah. WHY? to destroy the work of the devil. to eliminate sin and restore man back to God in Fellowship.

this is why the Lord Jesus said, "I come in the volume written of Me". and yes, there is volumes written of him in the OT scriptures, as we have aee in just a few example, but there is much more.

so, the influence of the devil/serpent was of a spiritual nature, (One's
character either in obedience to God or Not..... for the term "son", is metaphorically speaking of prominent moral characteristics, (see G5207, huios) this is why the title Son of Man is Given to the Lord Jesus. as a man in the LIKENESS of sinful Flesh, is his characteristics to ...... "OBEY", which is our EXAMPLE to follow.

a re-reading of this post is worthwhile for your edification, and also for bible clarity.

101G.

I believe the "sons of God" who mated with the "daughters of men" were distinct individuals from heaven that had taken on human form as servants of the "Prince of this world" loooong before Adam arrived. The narratives were comingled when the Hebrews were creating their story of origins by appropriating existing Mesopotamian lore. The Hebrew authors of Genesis assumed that Adam was the first human therefor the world must have been created just prior.

In my theology life was created through the process of evolution. Humans are roughly 1,000,000 years old. The "crafty beast" was the original representative of God on earth. He was a Son of God who eventually joined the Lucifer rebellion which caused terrible havoc on earth. The disloyal staff members mated with the daughters of men in order to perpetuate their cause after loosing immortality. Adam and Eve were the 2nd rulers who came from heaven. In a short time they defaulted but repented, salvaging what they could before succumbing to natural death.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Jesus left no writings lest they become the kind of "fetish" that the Hebrew scriptures became long after the entirely human origins of those writings.

A few questions about your statement.

1. When did jesus state that he was leaving behind no writings so that they would not become a fetish?
2. According to your statement, who did jesus make such a statement to about why he himself would write nothing?
3. Why did he allow the gospel writers, whoever they were, to have any information for them to write about him? It appears that some people fetish the NT.
4. From whom and where did you get the information for your statement?

Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So the Gospels were a translation from Aramaic into Greek.

Really. Which type of Aramaic and where did you get your information that the Greek gospels are translations of from an Aramaic text? Also, what is the name of the persons/people who did the translating?

I think the Jews and atheists made up the story that Jesus never really existed for their own reasons. You've proven my point that you are STILL trying to get rid of Jesus! You were being disingenuous when you claimed the "live and let live" stuff.

Actually, it is bit more nuanced than what you wrote. The claim is that the historical jesus was not what is found in the NT writings. I.e. there was a historical person who inspired the jesus mythos and there is the jesus mythos run wild.

In terms of getting rid of jesus. Christians have him so his legend has not been gotten rid of. Besiders, according to what you wrote earlier the whole thing was not for Torath Mosheh Jews anyway, it was for non-Jewish pagans. Further, the NT it makes it clear that the early Christians wanted out of the Torah based Jewish community.

In terms of live and let live, because I am not trying to convince or convert and simply answering your question from the OP it is 100% live and let live. Is it possible that you were never asking a question at all but making a statement or a manifesto?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The followers of Jesus seem to have assumed that the Son of God would soon return from heaven to fulfill the expectations of the Jewish Messiah. So there was some delay in the writings of the Gospel accounts. The gospels are not perfect, but all things considered, if someone were perpetuating a fraud then they would have done a much better job. Scribes appear to have remained true to what they inherited.

Okay, so from what I understand from what you have written everything went according to their plan.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think the Jews and atheists made up the story that Jesus never really existed for their own reasons.

There is another way to look at it. Because the historical jesus didn't write anything he set events in motion for whatever his real intent was to be misunderstood and to not meet the standards that Yeshayahu wrote about when he stated:

Thus, it pays for Torath Mosheh Jews to stick to what Yeshayahu stated.

 

[Colt]

A few questions about your statement.

1. When did jesus state that he was leaving behind no writings so that they would not become a fetish?
2. According to your statement, who did jesus make such a statement to about why he himself would write nothing?
3. Why did he allow the gospel writers, whoever they were, to have any information for them to write about him? It appears that some people fetish the NT.
4. From whom and where did you get the information for your statement?

Thanks.

For one there is NO mention in the Gospels themselves of Jesus writing anything except in the sand. No such statement exists in the Gospels. Everything in the so-called red letters were people writing about Jesus. Neither is there any account of the apostles or real-time followers taking dictation. Gospel writers were relying upon recollection and eyewitness accounts. Those early manuscripts vanished from history.

I'm a student of the Urantia Book revelation of 1955. We have the entire story of Jesus as observed by celestial beings who were then present on earth. It contains a massive amount of material some of which supports the objections by our Jewish friends concerning Jesus as Messiah.

Extracts from the UB just prior to the beginning of his public work at 34 years old:

136:4.2 The first thing Jesus did, after thinking through the general plan of co-ordinating his program with John’s movement, was to review in his mind the instructions of Immanuel. Carefully he thought over the advice given him concerning his methods of labor, and that he was to leave no permanent writing on the planet. Never again did Jesus write on anything except sand. On his next visit to Nazareth, much to the sorrow of his brother Joseph, Jesus destroyed all of his writing that was preserved on the boards about the carpenter shop, and which hung upon the walls of the old home. And Jesus pondered well over Immanuel’s advice pertaining to his economic, social, and political attitude toward the world as he should find it.

137:2.9 They all remained overnight with Joseph in Jesus’ boyhood home. The associates of Jesus little understood why their new-found teacher was so concerned with completely destroying every vestige of his writing which remained about the home in the form of the ten commandments and other mottoes and sayings. But this proceeding, together with the fact that they never saw him subsequently write — except upon the dust or in the sand — made a deep impression upon their minds. *

"Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records."

The Times of Michael's Bestowal