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When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?
- Thread starter Colt
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@rosends , @Ehav4Ever "יִרְאֶה־לּ֥וֹ הַשֶּׂ֛ה לְעֹלָ֖ה" "will see to it the lamb to [the] burnt-offering"?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Okay, so who did the translating? Also, was there a reason they preserved all of their Greek translations while writing nothing in Aramaic or at leas not preserving the Aramaic at the level they did with the Greek?
Also, according to your insight, which type of Aramaic were they translating from?
One voclaized like this:
or that is vocalized like this?
Who did the translating? How could anyone know?
The consensus among scholars is that Jesus spoke a Galilean dialect. A Judean dialect would have been common in Jerusalem.at the times of Jesus.
What language did Abram speak? What form of Hebrew did Moses speak? Who did the translating for Moses? Who translated Abrams words into which Hebrew?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. With your research in mind consider this from my source of thinking about all of this.Since I don't have a concept of religion I follow nothing with hooks, lines, or sinkers attached. The same way that you don't accept a religion hook, line, and sink. Similar to you I don't accept anyting. Similar to you I take a topic or issue and investigate it the using the scientific method. Then I revisit and retest it over and over again non-stop for years. If need be I go and learn a new language or travel to a new place to verify the facts.
I think we can both agree no one should accept anything that calls itself or styles itself as a religion.
Background, Jesus is now 15, his father Joseph had died in a construction accident which left Jesus the head of a large family. His mother was still pregnant with the eighth child when Joseph died.
126:3.5 (1389.8) This year Jesus was much troubled with confused thinking. Family responsibility had quite effectively removed all thought of immediately carrying out any plan for responding to the Jerusalem visitation directing him to “be about his Father’s business.” Jesus rightly reasoned that the watchcare of his earthly father’s family must take precedence of all duties; that the support of his family must become his first obligation.
126:3.6 (1390.1) In the course of this year Jesus found a passage in the so-called Book of Enoch which influenced him in the later adoption of the term “Son of Man” as a designation for his bestowal mission on Urantia. He had thoroughly considered the idea of the Jewish Messiah and was firmly convinced that he was not to be that Messiah. He longed to help his father’s people, but he never expected to lead Jewish armies in overthrowing the foreign domination of Palestine. He knew he would never sit on the throne of David at Jerusalem. Neither did he believe that his mission was that of a spiritual deliverer or moral teacher solely to the Jewish people. In no sense, therefore, could his life mission be the fulfillment of the intense longings and supposed Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures; at least, not as the Jews understood these predictions of the prophets. Likewise he was certain he was never to appear as the Son of Man depicted by the Prophet Daniel.
126:3.7 (1390.2) But when the time came for him to go forth as a world teacher, what would he call himself? What claim should he make concerning his mission? By what name would he be called by the people who would become believers in his teachings?
126:3.8 (1390.3) While turning all these problems over in his mind, he found in the synagogue library at Nazareth, among the apocalyptic books which he had been studying, this manuscript called “The Book of Enoch”; and though he was certain that it had not been written by Enoch of old, it proved very intriguing to him, and he read and reread it many times. There was one passage which particularly impressed him, a passage in which this term “Son of Man” appeared. The writer of this so-called Book of Enoch went on to tell about this Son of Man, describing the work he would do on earth and explaining that this Son of Man, before coming down on this earth to bring salvation to mankind, had walked through the courts of heavenly glory with his Father, the Father of all; and that he had turned his back upon all this grandeur and glory to come down on earth to proclaim salvation to needy mortals. As Jesus would read these passages (well understanding that much of the Eastern mysticism which had become admixed with these teachings was erroneous), he responded in his heart and recognized in his mind that of all the Messianic predictions of the Hebrew scriptures and of all the theories about the Jewish deliverer, none was so near the truth as this story tucked away in this only partially accredited Book of Enoch; and he then and there decided to adopt as his inaugural title “the Son of Man.” And this he did when he subsequently began his public work. Jesus had an unerring ability for the recognition of truth, and truth he never hesitated to embrace, no matter from what source it appeared to emanate.
126:3.9 (1390.4) By this time he had quite thoroughly settled many things about his forthcoming work for the world, but he said nothing of these matters to his mother, who still held stoutly to the idea of his being the Jewish Messiah.
126:3.10 (1390.5) The great confusion of Jesus’ younger days now arose. Having settled something about the nature of his mission on earth, “to be about his Father’s business”—to show forth his Father’s loving nature to all mankind—he began to ponder anew the many statements in the Scriptures referring to the coming of a national deliverer, a Jewish teacher or king. To what event did these prophecies refer? Was not he a Jew? or was he? Was he or was he not of the house of David? His mother averred he was; his father had ruled that he was not. He decided he was not. But had the prophets confused the nature and mission of the Messiah?
126:3.11 (1391.1) After all, could it be possible that his mother was right? In most matters, when differences of opinion had arisen in the past, she had been right. If he were a new teacher and not the Messiah, then how should he recognize the Jewish Messiah if such a one should appear in Jerusalem during the time of his earth mission; and, further, what should be his relation to this Jewish Messiah? And what should be his relation, after embarking on his life mission, to his family? to the Jewish commonwealth and religion? to the Roman Empire? to the gentiles and their religions? Each of these momentous problems this young Galilean turned over in his mind and seriously pondered while he continued to work at the carpenter’s bench, laboriously making a living for himself, his mother, and eight other hungry mouths.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
One way is for the person doing the translating to leave information about themselves and their text. I.e. they include a type of preface to describe the source of the text and the reasons for the work.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Which Torah books have that? You are aware that many religious scrolls were anonymous?
At the beginning of Genesis there is direct quoting of God before humans were made. Who is taking dictation??
101G
Well-Known Member
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
In the Torath Mosheh Jewish community it is quite common for the author to give his geneology and what we call (מסורת) to be recorded. This has been in practice in the Torath Mosheh Jewish community for thousands of years. Here are a few examples.
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Introduction to ~900 Tanakh from Egypt included the name of the Jewish leader who transcribed it.
----------------------------
I will have a few more examples.
Attachments
Colt
Well-Known Member
The books of the Torah don't credit the authors and give no indication about what the original language was. You have provided some insight into transcribers.
I had asked who was taking dictation about what God was speaking before he created humans?
Most Christians I have engaged are generally clueless as to actual Messianic prophesy. They refuse to simply ask the undisputed experts on the Messiah - Jewish OT scholars. If they really sought the Truth, they would know that Messianic prophesy does not in any way include:
A virgin birth
A crucifixion
A resurrection
Any divine qualities
The gospel authors knew Jesus in no way fulfilled actual Messianic prophesy - and still lied about it anyway, leaving gullible Christians as victims of this now multi trillion dollar scam.
The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize
rosends
Well-Known Member
More like, God will, himself, show the lamb that will be an offering to him.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Lamb that joined?
No, not even a little.
http://alhatorah.org/Media/1Bere***...Kingship/Poetic Forms - Steiner - JBL 129.pdf
Start from page 219
Colt
Well-Known Member
I generally agree, Jesus didn’t live up to the expectations based on interpretation of messianic prophecy or scriptures in Judaism. It’s been nearly 3,500 years since the earliest references to a Jewish Messiah. In reformed Judaism they’ve pretty much abandoned the idea of an individual Messiah altogether .Most Christians I have engaged are generally clueless as to actual Messianic prophesy. They refuse to simply ask the undisputed experts on the Messiah - Jewish OT scholars. If they really sought the Truth, they would know that Messianic prophesy does not in any way include:
A virgin birth
A crucifixion
A resurrection
Any divine qualities
The gospel authors knew Jesus in no way fulfilled actual Messianic prophesy - and still lied about it anyway, leaving gullible Christians as victims of this now multi trillion dollar scam.
The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
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For one example it would be a Christian that follows Jesus' instruction found at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8
One who tells others about the good news (gospel) of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is a real government with Jesus to be King of God's Kingdom government for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
So, coupled with a Christian life style as outlined in Scripture along with proclaiming the good news brings credit to Jesus and what he taught and instructed to do.
To me Messiah mentioned twice (Daniel 9:25-26) is speaking about one coming Messiah.
Messiah not only as Leader but the one cut off from the land of the living - Isaiah 53:8; Isaiah 53:12
Fulfilled in Jesus at Matthew 26:2; Luke 24:26; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 2:24
If you look at any of my posts you will find I never used the word ' the' before Messiah at Daniel 9:25-26 NWT
Saying I said 'the' Messiah any time is false, that is a new thought for me.
Just because some missionaries somewhere using the old King James used the word ' the' does Not mean the Scriptures say that.
Again, I never said 'the' Messiah in my posts. That is putting a word in my posts that does Not appear.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
The messiah isn’t effected by the problem of evil, he is actually impervious to it, can a divine messiah take His existence and save God (so to speak)? Think about it.