When will we acknowledge sexism and violence against men is just as real?

[Sunstone]

It seems to me that this is another variation of the "feminists don't care about any issues other than women's rights." Well, what other group is expected to speak out against every injustice on the planet just because it is primarily concerned with a specific form of injustice?

Feminists don't have to address all issues with equal focus. If you would like to speak out against misandry or racism, by all means join movements that are focused on those issues. Criticizing feminists for focusing on women's rights strikes me as inconsistent at best.

Criticizing feminists for not speaking out on issues other than women's rights seems to me a common stratagem employed by folks who apparently wish to divert attention from women's rights issues. I think it's downright amusing the way it suggests that women should have no right to speak about their rights unless they give equal time to something else. Who else gets that kind of bullcrap on a routine basis?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Are you siding with women here?

I know, right? Such a crime it is!

 

[Robert.Evans]

I know, right? Such a crime it is!

Seems to be nowadays if you side with men! Perhaps you just have a deep feeling of wanting to protect women.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Seems to be nowadays if you side with men! Perhaps you just have a deep feeling of wanting to protect women.

You are positing a false dichotomy where siding with women necessarily means being against men. Those may be your own beliefs, but I would suggest not generalizing about all men based on your personal views.

 

[Sunstone]

I know, right? Such a crime it is!

Women's rights isn't a man versus woman thing. It's a justice versus injustice thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems to me that this is another variation of the "feminists don't care about any issues other than women's rights" argument.

That would be to misinterpret my posts. You must understand that there are multiple cultures & philosophies under "feminism". Some are very pro-male....some are anti-male. You cannot speak for all, just as I cannot (& do not) view them as homogeneous.
But there is no getting around the fact that feminism in general is most focused upon improving the lot of females.

Well, what other group is expected to speak out against every injustice on the planet just because it is primarily concerned with a specific form of injustice?

Who says they must address all injustices? I only ask that they not perpetrate any injustices against those not within their "gaze". But we've seen claims on RF that MRA is not just anti-female, but useless because feminists fight for men's rights. Hogwash! Just as feminists are entitled to fight for their cause, other groups may fight for their own.

Feminists don't have to address all issues with equal focus. If you would like to speak out against misandry or racism, by all means join movements that are focused on those issues. Criticizing feminists for focusing on women's rights strikes me as inconsistent at best.

Sigh....you've not read all my posts on the subjejct....I've oft stated that I wholeheartedly support feminists advocating for their own. But you should also grant others approval for their self advocacy. The fact that I criticize some elements in feminism does not mean that I oppose feminism. I favor the portion which is egalitarian.

Now, it's time for a competing vapid slogan:
Egalitarianism is the radical notion that equal rights is for men too.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That would be to misinterpret my posts. You must understand that there are multiple cultures & philosophies under the "feminism". Some are very pro-male....some are anti-male. You cannot speak for all, just as I cannot (& do not) view them as homogeneous.
But there is no getting around the fact that feminism in general is most focused upon improving the lot of females.

Who says they must address all injustices? I only ask that they not perpetrate any injustices against those not within their "gaze". But we've seen claims on RF that MRA is not just anti-female, but useless because feminists fight for men's rights. Hogwash! Just as feminists are entitled to fight for their cause, other groups may fight for their own.

Seeing as how most feminists don't perpetrate or even propose perpetrating injustices against men, I'm not sure what you are complaining about.

MRAs, from what I have read, are rife with misogyny and self-entitled attitudes. They are often enough using the cause of men's rights as a facade to hide their misogyny and opposition to women's rights.

You fail to read all my posts....I've oft stated that I wholeheartedly support feminists advocating for their own. But you should also grant others approval for their self interest.

Now, it's time for a competing vapid slogan:
Egalitarianism is the radical notion that equal rights is for men too.

You keep stating that you support feminists' cause, Rev, but you sure are not demonstrating that well. You have made posts criticizing feminism more than posts criticizing blatant rape apologetics (yes, they sure as hell are rape apologetics; go back and read those threads again if you want) and misogyny. You have defended such rhetoric as a mere "difference of opinion" and supported such posters under the banner of civility and objectivity. You have even overlooked misogynistic posts and criticized feminism in the very same threads where those posts were made.

I judge people's attitudes by their own words and actions. If you feel like your own words don't represent your views accurately, that's an issue you have to fix. Other people are not to blame if they understand your words as they are written.

 

[Revoltingest]

Seeing as how most feminists don't perpetrate or even propose perpetrating injustices against men, I'm not sure what you are complaining about.

I'm just addressing the more dysfunctional elements in feminism. If you think it's naught but "complaining", then you should pay better attention. And instead of looking for things to bicker over, try to find some merit in the other side.

MRAs, from what I have read, are rife with misogyny and self-entitled attitudes. They are often enough using the cause of men's rights as a facade to hide their misogyny and opposition to women's rights.

So you dismiss men's rights advocacy as naught but sexism, hatred & self-entitlement, eh?
Men who dare advocate against injustice against them is just wrong....but women who do the same are noble. This is the height of gender based bigotry, to see no failings within feminism, but to see no merit in advocacy for men (unless women are doing it).

You keep stating that you support feminists' cause, Rev, but you sure are not demonstrating that well.

Again, you must pay attention, but without the jaundiced eye. I am more pro-body autonomy than even most feminists. I favor equal opportunity. I favor.....well, it does no good to list beliefs which favor equality does it? It's the "no true feminist fallacy", ie, if I'm not one of you, then I'm the enemy (no matter what my beliefs). This is one of the most pernicious problems that the feminist movement has, ie, the appearance of open hostility to all other views....even other feminist views.
This is why I refuse to adopt the label of "feminist", even though by all definitions I am one. (I've even taken tests for it. I pass with flying colors.) I much prefer "egalitarian" & "libertarian".....we have bigger & friendlier tents.

You have made posts criticizing feminism more than posts criticizing blatant rape apologetics (yes, they sure as hell are rape apologetics; go back and read those threads again if you want) and misogyny. You have defended such rhetoric as a mere "difference of opinion" and supported such posters under the banner of civility and objectivity. You have even overlooked misogynistic posts and criticized feminism in the very same threads where those posts were made.

With such rationalizing, it's clear that any straw will be grasped if it supports your desperate need to paint me as a misogynist. One ought not reason that because there are some sexist remarks somewhere that I didn't criticize, that this means I approve. (You never show notice when I do fault posters for unfair remarks about feminism.)
I note that you've never opposed slogans like "Dead Men Don't Rape". Does your silence this make you a man hater? But disdain for men's rights activism does bespeak bigotry towards men.

I judge people's attitudes by their own words and actions. If you feel like your own words don't represent your views accurately, that's an issue you have to fix. Other people are not to blame if they understand your words as they are written.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

 

[Debater Slayer]

So you dismiss men's rights advocacy as naught but sexism, hatred & self-entitlement, eh?
Men who dare advocate against injustice against them is just wrong....but women who do the same are noble. This is the height of gender based bigotry, to see no failings within feminism, but to see no merit in advocacy for men (unless women are doing it).

No, I dismiss pseudo-advocacy of men's rights as sexism, misogyny, and hatred. I also dismiss the sexism, misandry, and hatred in some of the fringe groups among feminists.

With such rationalizing, it's clear that any straw will be grasped if it supports your desperate need to paint me as a misogynist. One ought not reason that because there are some sexist remarks somewhere that I didn't criticize, that this means I approve. (You never show notice when I do fault posters for unfair remarks about feminism.)
I note that you've never opposed slogans like "Dead Men Don't Rape". Does your silence this make you a man hater? But disdain for men's rights activism does bespeak bigotry towards men.

There's actually no need to paint you as a misogynist; it's not like that's very important for advancing feminists' causes. I'm only making observations based on your own posts.

By the way, this is the second time someone here has accused me of bigotry toward members of my own gender because of my views. Guess what? The only other person who did that believes that women are inferior to men in almost every way imaginable.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

I'm not afraid of being judged by the views I have expressed here. In fact, I'm quite proud of them. So go ahead and judge me; I'm not ashamed of what I stand for or what I support.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I dismiss pseudo-advocacy of men's rights as sexism, misogyny, and hatred. I also dismiss the sexism, misandry, and hatred in some of the fringe groups among feminists.

Your post lacked the "pseudo" prefix, thereby attacking the entire movement. But even now you're unclear...do you say that MRA are predominantly "pseudo"? I respect the desire of anyone to advocate for one's own group. Feminists & MRA should both be seen as legitimate in their pursuits. The existence of extreme & offensive elements might repel us, but the focused advocacy for civil liberties & justice is nonetheless right.

There's actually no need to paint you as a misogynist; it's not like that's very important for advancing feminists' causes. I'm only making observations based on your own posts.

And yet, some feminists here insist upon implying & directly stating that. Such people strike me as angry thoughtless bigots. Oddly, feminists I know IRL see me as their ally. The internet is a much more polarizing place, eh?

By the way, this is the second time someone here has accused me of bigotry toward members of my own gender because of my views. Guess what? The only other person who did that believes that women are inferior to men in almost every way imaginable.

I see what I see. You too enjoy some unsavory company in your shrill accusations. Perhaps you imply that I secretly think men are superior to men, but I scoff at that notion.

I'm not afraid of being judged by the views I have expressed here. In fact, I'm quite proud of them. So go ahead and judge me; I'm not ashamed of what I stand for or what I support.

Then we are both comfortable with our own views, & feel no shame. Is it also fair to say that like me, you too favor gender equality? If so, then why such hostility over criticizing a part of feminism which is less than progressive?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Do egalitarians give advice to male victims of violence on how to avoid being attacked? How to avoid being raped? Isn't that the more pragmatic thing to do, rather than rail against a system that they perceive as oppressive? Isn't that more divisive than handling matters the more rational way, like planning your own safety measures against becoming a victim?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do egalitarians give advice to male victims of violence on how to avoid being attacked? How to avoid being raped?

I can't speak for all, but yes.

Isn't that the more pragmatic thing to do, rather than rail against a system that they perceive as oppressive? Isn't that more divisive than handling matters the more rational way, like planning your own safety measures against becoming a victim?

When I advocated that individuals should guard against assault based upon their individual circumstances, this was called "rape apologetics". It seems that it's only a "rational way" depending upon the gender of who recommends it.

I believe that it's time to come clean about my dark secret....
I am a rape apologist because I believe that:
- Victims of crime/assault are innocent of culpability.
- Only the perpetrator is guilty of the crime against another.
- We should take precautions which we each find practical to avoid vulnerability.
- We should help others avoid becoming a victim.
- We should help others find justice.

I feel better now, having admitted my backward views. Perhaps now I can begin to recover.

Edit: I bet only a single line from the above will be regularly repeated on RF.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I can't speak for all, but yes.

Can you point me toward any online resources that suggest such? I notice a lot of the advice given toward female targets. But where are the bits of the same advice toward male targets? Any here on RF?

When I advocated that individuals should guard against assault based upon their individual circumstances, this was called "rape apologetics". It seems that it's only a "rational way" depending upon the gender of who recommends it.

Is this assumed to be directed toward male targets as well? When I was challenged by others that my focus on general awareness and NOT the gender-specific "women-should-guard-their-drinks", I was told I was advocating something dangerous.

Do you advocate gender-specific rape-shield advice? Or do you broaden your advice to all rape targets? Do you argue against gender-specific rape-prevention advice? Why or why not?

I believe that it's time to come clean about my dark secret....
I am a rape apologist because I believe that:
- Victims of crime/assault are innocent of culpability.
- Only the perpetrator is guilty of the crime against another.
- We should take precautions which we each find practical to avoid vulnerability.
- We should help others avoid becoming a victim.
- We should help others find justice.

I feel better now, having admitted my backward views. Perhaps now I can begin to recover.

Edit: I bet only a single line from the above will be regularly repeated on RF.

I like snark as much as the next. But it could be when female victims of a well-known serial rapist were blatantly called "stupid", that there might have been tacit approval of such a remark....especially when it was called out to be insulting and paternalistic by me and *I* was the one who's tone was called out.

Plus, do you believe that potential perpetrators ought to be taught how NOT to rape in addition to your list for potential targets?

 

[Revoltingest]

Can you point me toward any online resources that suggest such? I notice a lot of the advice given toward female targets. But where are the bits of the same advice toward male targets? Any here on RF?

Since I don't belong to any specifically egalitarian organizations, I speak only for myself.

Is this assumed to be directed toward male targets as well? When I was challenged by others that my focus on general awareness and NOT the gender-specific "women-should-guard-their-drinks", I was told I was advocating something dangerous.

It seems we both are told things which are dysfunctional.

Do you advocate gender-specific rape-shield advice? Or do you broaden your advice to all rape targets? Do you argue against gender-specific rape-prevention advice? Why or why not?

I advocate useful advice. Should it be gender specific? I'm sure concerns will vary with gender, age, locale, religion & culture, but most advice should benefit all people, since we're all vulnerable.

I like snark as much as the next. But it could be when female victims of a well-known serial rapist were blatantly called "stupid", that there might have been tacit approval of such a remark....especially when it was called out to be insulting and paternalistic by me and *I* was the one who's tone was called out.

I don't recall this event.
But speaking as a rape apologist, I say it's wrong to victims as "stupid" or complicit in the assault.

Plus, do you believe that potential perpetrators ought to be taught how NOT to rape in addition to your list for potential targets?

I don't keep a list.
I've advocated exactly that on numerous occasions, eg, raising consciousness to recognize when one's love interest cannot or does not give consent.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Fair enough.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You are positing a false dichotomy where siding with women necessarily means being against men

So siding with women means being with men??

 

[Robert.Evans]

Women's rights isn't a man versus woman thing. It's a justice versus injustice thing.

Based off whose rules and ideals?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Seeing as how most feminists don't perpetrate or even propose perpetrating injustices against men,

I think you need to do some research.

 

[Robert.Evans]

There's actually no need to paint you as a misogynist

Is that not name calling though?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Is it also fair to say that like me, you too favor gender equality? If so, then why such hostility over criticizing a part of feminism which is less than progressive?

Ohhh..... good point