When will we acknowledge sexism and violence against men is just as real?

[nnmartin]

my equation for the attraction stakes is as such:

Men go for 100% looks in the woman

Woman go for 50% looks, and 50% wealth.


so both are fairly objective really.

agree?

 

[Sunstone]

There's been a lot of questions raised about why men are dropping out of society and not committing to marriage. I think the answer is clear. There's really no place for the average man nowadays.

I don't know about that. I think the reason so many men are dropping out of society and refusing to commit to marriage has stronger roots in their economic situation. They perceive -- rightly or wrongly -- that they can't get ahead, there's little pay off for hard work, and they are and will be in no position to support a family. Hence, they turn to other paths than career and marriage.

 

[Sunstone]

The problem here is that while women are very active to get their own rights improved, they don't much care about men.

This is just anecdotal, but I've heard more women talk sympathetically about men being trapped in gender roles than I've heard men talk about it. They are usually feminists, in my experience.

Besides, if you think men don't get a fair shake, then shouldn't you do something about it yourself, rather than wait for women to do something about it for you?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

my equation for the attraction stakes is as such:

Men go for 100% looks in the woman

Woman go for 50% looks, and 50% wealth.


so both are fairly objective really.

agree?

I tend to look for psychological stability.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I tend to look for psychological stability.

And a sense of humor.

Compassion.

Courage.

And can do the Thriller zombie dance. :yes:

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Seriously, sexism is an institution for dominated people, so you can't be sexist against your dominators.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The OP is in no way suggesting that all or most women are suspect. Your motherhood is not in question.

It would be a shame if this thread discussed the subject in absolutes. I know my remarks are certainly not a criticism of all women, or even most women. In fact the radio interviewers who were a main object of my criticism were men.

Personally, I think the thread is an opportunity to have a look at a sacred cow (no pun intended). It is true that criticising feminism was a guaranteed way to be socially ostracised in the 70s and 80s, even if like myself you fundamentally supported the general aims of the movement. I was raised by a single mother when that was very unusual, so I learned early about some very negative sexist attitudes.

Whenever a movement or ideology is treated as being beyond criticism, it will result in abuses of that ideology. Sometimes I have challenged feminists ( I mean supporters of feminism, both male and female) to critique the movement and nominate any faults or failings whether general or individual, and so far I have generally been met with silence, or vaguely concealed contempt.

Not me. The very word "feminism" often times elicits sneers and jeers, and specifically from men and women who are unaware of the many kinds of feminism, and who are unaware of the vast differences between First, Second, and Third Wave feminism. We have a lot of feminist thinkers and writers within ranks who are at odds with each other and who are quite vocal about it.

Common sense surely indicates that this is unrealistic.

The thread topic is actually about whethet or not we can acknowledge that any sexism or violence against men is real.

I had a discussion about this with a female social worker involved with domestic violence. She admitted to me that a very large percentage of cases were in her opinion triggered by female behaviour toward their men, including consistent acts of violence. She also admitted to me that there was no way she could publically acknowledge that and maintain her position.

The political correctness around this issue is pretty much an impenetrable wall.

I agree on many of these points.

Five years ago, I was leading a meditation and discussion group in St Louis, and quite a few times I brought up topics like "The Myth of Male Power". The demographic in these group discussions tipped heavily toward males aged 50-60, and I listened and learned to these well-traveled and highly educated men speak passionately about men's issues that legally and socially go ignored by the mainstream rhetoric: prostrate health, depression, sexual harassment, Chippendales acceptance while denouncing female strip clubs by the women in their lives, and yes, the silence of rape and domestic violence suffered in men at the hands of women.

Discussions like this ARE important, make no mistake. I appreciate that y'all speak up. I will still speak up about the Rape Culture, about ****-shaming, about the unfairness of government funded Viagara and the demonization of birth control pills for hot flashes. But in spite of our differences, how can women like me support you?

 

[Storm]

Seriously, sexism is an institution for dominated people, so you can't be sexist against your dominators.

Um, no it isn't. It's a form of bigotry, and you can be bigoted against anyone.

 

[work in progress]

Seriously, sexism is an institution for dominated people, so you can't be sexist against your dominators.

Technically you can, but it is of less consequence than discrimination coming from the class which holds power. We see this all the time in the "reverse discrimination" stories on the race issues. This is nothing more than a man-bites-dog story! Unless things have changed this afternoon, men are still larger and stronger on average than women, and still have the intimidation factor, which is becoming less and less socially acceptable these days. I can't even take seriously these oddball stories about men claiming that women are beating them up.

I'm noticing that whenever a story pops up that has anything to do with gender, on a news thread, there is a cavalcade of emasculated men who declare that men are the oppressed class now. When a group is used to having their way, any moves towards addressing discrimination become threats to their sense of privilege. The complaints from men my age mostly revolve around the fact that men can't get away with things they used to when we were young. So, they end up bitter and divorced because abuse or infidelity are grounds for divorce, and (where I live) divorce means automatic wage garnishment for alimony and child support ( no more delaying or disregarding support payments). Obviously there are going to be cases where a guy has been badly treated by the courts.....that's just the hazards of a legal system that can't dispense perfect justice. But if it's any consolation to the whiners, the economic power balance between men and women is shifting and moving in the woman's favour. So, this means in the future, that there will be more of the stay-at-home dads suing for alimony and child support!

I've heard about the trends in education and professions where more and more women are going to university and getting the better jobs. A recent interview on the Texas public radio show Think, featured this interview with Liza Mundy on the subject of growing numbers of female breadwinners, and the affects it is having on male/female relationships and family life. For the most part, it seems that younger men and women are adjusting to the new reality: men are doing more housework and looking after the children, the women are realizing that they may never find a mate if they expect a husband who earns more than they do. The younger couples are adjusting, in much the same way that men of my generation had to adjust to seeing women in the workplace and their wives going off to work.

But, there's always the whiners and the misfits who get hostile and let misogyny run amok. Young men today are going to have to find better ways for defining their masculinity than having control over their women, or going out looking for fights or similar idiotic behaviour. I see the trend as a positive sign for the future, and I don't see many other trends that have similar positive outlooks!

 

[Sunstone]

Seriously, sexism is an institution for dominated people, so you can't be sexist against your dominators.

Seriously?

 

[Sunstone]

And a sense of humor.

Compassion.

Courage.

And can do the Thriller zombie dance. :yes:

:help: <-------------- I strikes out again!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And a sense of humor.

Compassion.

Courage.

And can do the Thriller zombie dance. :yes:

Does the moonwalk count? :flirt:

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I agree, feminism is growing like aids. At least they aren't like men were though:

I've never been told by a woman to "get back in the garage!" "make me an engine!"

 

[Songbird]

This is just anecdotal, but I've heard more women talk sympathetically about men being trapped in gender roles than I've heard men talk about it. They are usually feminists, in my experience.

Besides, if you think men don't get a fair shake, then shouldn't you do something about it yourself, rather than wait for women to do something about it for you?

Not me. The very word "feminism" often times elicits sneers and jeers, and specifically from men and women who are unaware of the many kinds of feminism, and who are unaware of the vast differences between First, Second, and Third Wave feminism. We have a lot of feminist thinkers and writers within ranks who are at odds with each other and who are quite vocal about it.

I had this very conversation with a friend a few days ago. The intense repulsion and misunderstanding of the word "feminism" is in stark contrast to ALL the self-defined feminists I know. This conversation prompted the feminist friend of mine (who actively supports fathers' rights) to say, "I find it so interesting how our beliefs about the world can be so different than our experience." (I've since quoted that.)

Here's a sample of what actual, live feminists of today say (based on the last decade of conversations between us:

-Like Mystic said, we don't all agree on things. Some feminists endorse pornography, others oppose it. Some infuse religion into their views, others don't, etc. "Feminism" is a basic recognition of injustice based on gender, and a myriad of views branch out from that base.
-Women's rights are beneficial to both genders. In countries where educational efforts concentrated on girls (where they had previously lacked), BOTH girls' and boys' test scores improved. When gender roles are mitigated for women, they're also mitigated for men.
-It's not just women's rights that matter, of course. Many of us vocally and financially support men's rights as a crucial ethical component to feminism. We're painfully aware that subverting one gender for the sake of the other is harmful, and that insisting on fair treatment toward women doesn't mean men will be victimized (as it turns out, some fear).
-Based on the above comment, gender roles cause harm especially when problems are invalidated - like men being raped, for example. To greatly paraphrase a book, women had a social revolution with feminism, and men haven't. Men are rigidly locked into roles which present in things like misogyny, homophobia (look into how many heterosexual girls versus boys feel comfortable exploring homosexual experiences), and stricter adherence to heteronormatives. And I'm not saying men are oppressed by other men. Society in totality pressures this conformity. Both genders expect more conformity from men than from women.

 

[Mathematician]

I agree, feminism is growing like aids. At least they aren't like men were though:

I've never been told by a woman to "get back in the garage!" "make me an engine!"

Worse, you have to pay for the first date.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Worse, you have to pay for the first date.

I expect him to offer, as I expect a lady to offer, too. My very first argument with Steve came at our first real date (we had been best friends for several months before that) when the check came at the end of our dinner. We both slapped our hands on the check and demanded caring for the other.

It was another sign that this was a good match.

 

[dust1n]

I believe this forum serves the goal of more choice in gender roles, particularly trans-gender.

I agree.

I'd say that you handle it just fine.

And thank you.

 

[Revoltingest]

And thank you.

And I thank all for not pointing out that I wrote "their" when I meant "they're".
I hate it when that happens!

 

[no-body]

I don't think the problem is being against men or women rather it is about societies obsession with gender stereotypes. There is a very strict attitude in society about "the way things should be and how people need to act" based on who they are.

 

[Songbird]

I don't think the problem is being against men or women rather it is about societies obsession with gender stereotypes. There is a very strict attitude in society about "the way things should be and how people need to act" based on who they are.

Absolutely!