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When will we acknowledge sexism and violence against men is just as real?

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I mean that in the first instance it is looks virtually 100% that men go for. After the first time then maybe other factors kick in but most men are nothing other than modern day neandarthals.

How often do you see top celebrities or alpha males with ugly women?

not often.

'twisted worldview' - au contraire - I just like to say it how it is rather than beat around the bush or place my head in the sand.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
generally speaking, men are slaves to women so will passively accept this kind of badgirl behaviour. (whilst secretly enjoying it)

A little like the female spider who eats the male - all part of the erotic ritual.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The problem here is that while women are very active to get their own rights improved, they don't much care about men. And men can't say anything, or we will be considered weak by our peers.
That is a very unfair over generalization. While some more extreme forms of feminism don't care about men, and hate anyone who has a penis or wonders what it would be like to have one, like most other extreme positions they are in the minority.
But while there is an increasing awareness of the fact men can be raped, be victims of domestic abuse, and other such things, it is indeed largely still a man's world. There is even an increasing focus on how the media is starting to damage men's self-image and self-esteem in the ways it has been damaging women's. However, women are still typically viewed as less capable (especially when it comes to math), are still paid less for equal work, are seen as inferior in many places, and are still expected to uphold traditional roles or face potentially damning social repercussions. Just look at how many women work a full time job and come home to take care of the kids and domestic chores with very little-to-no aid from the father figure, because that is what is expected. And much like how large portions of society are plagued with a form of latent racism, many people (women included) have a sense of latent sexism.
Yes there are some things that are unfair for men. My girlfriends brother fought a very long and expensive uphill battle to win custody of his son, despite the fact his mother neglected him (several occasions his clothes reeked of cat urine), had him in a very unsafe environment, and her boyfriend was very abusive. And for awhile it actually seemed the judge was going to rule in favor of the mom, until the dad got her away from her lawyer and done some fast talking to trick her into giving him custody. And my dad, after his first divorce, was court ordered to sell his stuff and give half the money to his ex (he sold it all to a friend for a quarter).
Yes there are double standards, and some things are unfair. But the stay-at-home dad is becoming more common and more acceptable, it's becoming more common and acceptable for men to express their feminine side, but to say there is no place for a man in today's society is simply absurd. And the "average man" is not the hyper-masculine, woman objectifying, Rambo tough guy like the media portrays, just like the average woman is not a rail-thin model like the media portrays.
As for education, women now being the majority in college is probably more to due with the fact there has been, for many years, very strong pushes towards getting society to realize women are intellectually just as capable as men, and many women become motivated to obtain a higher education because they won't be held back because they are a woman. This combined with rapidly declining education standards, declining care for the success and well-being of the students, and the rise of drop-out factories is a much more likely and plausible explanation that trying to say the playing field is unfair for men. And not to mention that men are more likely to slack off than women, and women learn from a very early age they have to put in more effort than men.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
As for education, women now being the majority in college is probably more to due with the fact there has been, for many years, very strong pushes towards getting society to realize women are intellectually just as capable as men, and many women become motivated to obtain a higher education because they won't be held back because they are a woman. This combined with rapidly declining education standards, declining care for the success and well-being of the students, and the rise of drop-out factories is a much more likely and plausible explanation that trying to say the playing field is unfair for men. And not to mention that men are more likely to slack off than women, and women learn from a very early age they have to put in more effort than men.

I would argue women-oriented scholarships, affirmative action, and teachers being almost exclusively female until high school result in women performing better. The education establishment favors girls over boys. We constantly see boys misdiagnosed with ADHD, ADD, and special needs for acting out at a young age. Being rambunctious is cause for a lifetime of academic failure.

Where are you concluding women have to try harder then men? Oftentimes men are expected to perform more duties; not just in the general workforce where they take on riskier jobs, but also in regards to their peers. A man is expected to perform menial work without additional compensation. When it comes time to move around desks, pack boxes, etc. who is called on?
 
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work in progress

Well-Known Member
I would argue women-oriented scholarships, affirmative action, and teachers being almost exclusively female until high school result in women performing better. The education establishment favors girls over boys. We constantly see boys misdiagnosed with ADHD, ADD, and special needs for acting out at a young age. Being rambunctious is cause for a lifetime of academic failure.
BS! I've listened to enough interviews with the experts, and read enough of their editorial comments on the subject of education to know that there is a general consensus that the reason boys are falling behind is not because girls are being favoured. Like it or not, boys are statistically far more likely to have ADHD, or to have developmental impairments like autism and Asperger's Syndrome, that will limit or restrict their success in school.

Most of the complaints I've heard about the typical school setup, is that boys have a more difficult time than girls in classroom, structured education than girls do. My grades were never up to the level that my aptitude tests said I should have been able to achieve, but I have never blamed my mediocre performance in the school system on women!

Why is this issue being addressed by so called "Men's Rights Activists" squawking about reverse discrimination, instead of focusing on reforms to education? Our basic classroom setup of putting students in a room for six hours and listen to a teacher, was established at the start of the Industrial Revolution; and it's primary purpose wasn't for learning...it was so kids from working class families would be well-practiced for the druggery of repetitive jobs they would find in the textile mills and factories of the Guilded Age.

But, this is typical of the conservative strategies to turn people against each other, so they are so trapped by infighting over the gender, race, religion, ethnicity, class, so that middle class working people can't come together collectively to work for their general advancement.
Where are you concluding women have to try harder then men? Oftentimes men are expected to perform more duties; not just in the general workforce where they take on riskier jobs, but also in regards to their peers. A man is expected to perform menial work without additional compensation. When it comes time to move around desks, pack boxes, etc. who is called on?
You mean women don't pack boxes where you live? Or help move furniture? And how many men who work from an office have to do physical labour? It sure doesn't happen in my workplace!

Fact is that the average male-only job description would have remained men only -- whether it's trades or police or other government workers - they would have stayed that way if it was left up to them. When they first started getting orders from government to open up jobs for female applicants, there was a collective effort to stonewall and reject these demands because women weren't strong enough...or had related female issues that would disqualify them from doing the job effectively.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
But, this is typical of the conservative strategies to turn people against each other, so they are so trapped by infighting over the gender, race, religion, ethnicity, class, so that middle class working people can't come together collectively to work for their general advancement.

Feminists created the rift between genders, not male-rights activists.

When you have politicians like Hillary Clinton parroting such quotes as "Women have always been the primary victims of war," men start to wake up and realize their contributions and lives are going unnoticed.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
Honestly, i find it foolish that patriarchy is blamed on men entirely. Why are we finally seeing women being treated equally, more and more as time passes? Because they are finally deciding that they won't take it anymore.... and i'm fine with that. The problem i have with some of the more hardcore feminists is that they tend to forget that the average man is just as much a victim of society's prejudices as women are.

Clearly women have for a very long time been oppressed, and ignored, but they did very little about it for so long. It became the norm, and to hate men because they act as they've been raised to act is not a good strategy. Women don't absolutely need men's help, but it sure is easier when they have it, and as they say, you get more flies with sugar, than you do with vinegar. Honestly, the oppression of women can easily be compared to that of religion. People are taught at a very young age what they are supposed to believe in, and how certain people are supposed to act, what they are supposed to want, etc.

Now, there will always be a few who actually think about what they are told, and realize, that's bs. Why should i believe in that? Why should i follow that particular lifestyle, just cause it's normal? Why should i accept that we are treated as less, treated as servants? Believe it or not, there are plenty of men who agree with feminists wholeheartedly.

And to storm, there wasn't any face palm necessary. He pretty much stated the obvious, and then so did you.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Patriarchy isn't blamed on men. It's blamed on ignorance.

And I agree with Storm. Feminism didn't cause the rift between the genders. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Patriarchy and misogyny caused/causes the rift, and the blind acceptance of it.

I think the male-rights activists have a very important point, and one will find a LOT of feminists agreeing with it: men have been vicitimized too in a misogynistic paradigm.

The goal of feminism (at least my feminism) is not to tear men down so women get a fair shake. It is to lift women up to the same value and opportunities as men - who we want to be strong, capable, compassionate, responsible, and wise.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Feminists created the rift between genders, not male-rights activists.
Yeah, that's like blaming MLK and the Civil Rights Movement for causing the rift between blacks and whites in America!

It's already been covered, but you are creating a scenario where history began with the Feminist Movement...although you don't specify whether you're talking about the 2nd Wave feminists of the 60's, or are going right back to the Suffragettes - who started it all. No recognition of why women were feeling oppressed by a system that didn't give them a right to vote; a right for married women to own property or apply for loans; a right to refuse sex (in Canada, a husband...even an estranged husband, couldn't be charged with rape or sexually assaulting his wife before 1980); a right to equal pay for equal work, and the related right to apply for jobs that were arbitrarily restricted to male applicants by the employer.

As an anecdote, from what my mother tells me of her post-war experience after my father came back from Europe, he didn't demand that she give up her job as a factory floor supervisor/manager when WWII came to a close. They weren't ready to start a family immediately after the War, and he was fine with her continuing on working -- but her employer fired her because they said that "men returning from the War needed those jobs." As a consolation, they offered her her original job as a line worker that she had at the start of the War, and she refused. And during that time before 1950, when my eldest brother was coming along, she wasn't able to find any work equivalent to what she had during the War....and that was likely the seed that spawned 2nd Wave Feminism 10 years later...in spite of the bustling economy and the onslaught of Suzy Homemaker themes directed at young women and girls at that time to just find a good husband and have lots of babies. Most women of my mother's generation didn't become placard-waving feminists, but they still felt cheated by the way their choices and roles in life were so restricted by social convention and the laws of that time. Most women of that era, like my mother and a couple of aunts, plowed their ambitions into volunteer work -- which was often as challenging and demanding as most paid occupations, even if it only offered intangible rewards.

But with all this, you blame feminists for creating a rift between men and women! I would conclude that the anti-feminist backlash reactionary movements (first one I was aware of was in the late 70's) were the source of the rift.
When you have politicians like Hillary Clinton parroting such quotes as "Women have always been the primary victims of war," men start to wake up and realize their contributions and lives are going unnoticed.
I haven't read far enough in this thread to see if anyone has responded with the numbers, but Hilary Clinton is exactly right that (I believe the exact quote is "women and children") are the primary victims of war, because the last war that consisted of massing armies across fortified lines at each other was WWI. If I recall correctly, 90% of the casualties of WWI were soldiers; but by the time we get to WWII, we already have civilian casualties of 50%. And each war since then has saw those civilian casualty numbers rise. Estimates of civilian casualties of the Iraq Invasion and Occupation, range anywhere between 100,000 and one million....far more than the few thousand actual soldiers who have died in the War. And, since Hilary Clinton has traveled to areas like the Congo, where thousands of women have been violently raped (needing reparative surgery afterwards, if they can get it), the long, long ignored backstory of rape and sexual assault of women, and even boys and girls trapped behind enemy lines is another reason why they are victims who have no say in a drama that is carried out by warlords with bands of young men.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
generally speaking, men are slaves to women so will passively accept this kind of badgirl behaviour. (whilst secretly enjoying it)


Every.time.you.speak.about.men.I.feel.offended.

It´s like a dark gift or something.

So men in your world: completely blinded by looks, get robbed of their wealth by women wo are pretty much glorified whores be them girlfriends, wives or whatever because they see in us only looks and wealth.

I... is that the way family looks where you live at?...all families?....

Sorry for you, man. Do must tell you. That´s hardly the only thing around.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
Why don't you explain why it's a strawman, Storm. I can actually see, that not everyone would blame patriarchy entirely on man, but merely saying it's a strawman doesn't mean a darn thing. It's a pretty pathetic attempt to score a hasty point, without having to bother to explain yourself. As is the constant face palm crap. That crap is downright disrespectful, and i'm honestly not sure why it's allowed. Everyone knows that face palm is the "polite" way of implying that someone is stupid, or said something you think is stupid. Well, if making one word answers to people's statements, and leaving little pictures is all you can add to this, please don't bother.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Um, I think a few thousand years of patriarchy might have had something to do with it.... :facepalm:

Question. So say a guy isn't patriarchial, yet he feels there is a divide between women of his young age and non-patriarchial men also his age? Would it be safe to assume that this divide between two new generations, where patriarchy exists on much lower levels, can be explained as a result of the last few thousand years actions?
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Every.time.you.speak.about.men.I.feel.offended.

It´s like a dark gift or something.

I am a gifted sort of a fellow, so thanks - that's a compliment;)

So men in your world: completely blinded by looks, get robbed of their wealth by women wo are pretty much glorified whores be them girlfriends, wives or whatever because they see in us only looks and wealth.

yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head there!

a good summary of how it is.

Love? - that's a joke surely?

how many couples stay together long term when there are money problems?

some perhaps, but the wheat from the chaff is soon sorted in many of these cases - pretty quickly as well.

such is the joy of life:shrug:
 

Songbird

She rules her life like a bird in flight
Question. So say a guy isn't patriarchial, yet he feels there is a divide between women of his young age and non-patriarchial men also his age? Would it be safe to assume that this divide between two new generations, where patriarchy exists on much lower levels, can be explained as a result of the last few thousand years actions?
Hey, my friend,

That question has a lot of vagueness. What defines someone as "patriarchal", what is this divide a young man feels; is it felt by anyone else and in the same way for the same reasons; does he feel divided from other men or just women; can a new generation not feel the effects of thousands of years of customs; what do you speculate is the cause of separation/divide this man feels etc.? You may need to be more specific about these things to find answers.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Why don't you explain why it's a strawman, Storm. I can actually see, that not everyone would blame patriarchy entirely on man, but merely saying it's a strawman doesn't mean a darn thing. It's a pretty pathetic attempt to score a hasty point, without having to bother to explain yourself. As is the constant face palm crap. That crap is downright disrespectful, and i'm honestly not sure why it's allowed. Everyone knows that face palm is the "polite" way of implying that someone is stupid, or said something you think is stupid. Well, if making one word answers to people's statements, and leaving little pictures is all you can add to this, please don't bother.
It's a strawman because not one damn person has said any such thing. You made up a silly argument and put it in my mouth to make me look bad - the very definition of strawman. As for the facepalm, it was the only acceptable response to BOTH the rules and my sentiments. Cope.

ETA: Also, if you think that using a smiley in response to being scolded for doing so wasn't deliberate? :facepalm:
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Question. So say a guy isn't patriarchial, yet he feels there is a divide between women of his young age and non-patriarchial men also his age? Would it be safe to assume that this divide between two new generations, where patriarchy exists on much lower levels, can be explained as a result of the last few thousand years actions?
Yes, in the same way that American racial tensions trace back to slavery.

I would also point out that I said "patriarchy." Not "men," not even "misogyny." It's a system that screwed everyone over.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
I shouldn't have to cope. The face palm is, in my opinion, worse than just calling someone stupid, because at least when you call someone stupid, you aren't hiding behind a picture. Now, you say it was intended as irony.... how would i know? That isn't how the picture works. It leaves things wide open to interpretation, and honestly, the most obvious interpretation there, is that you are implying i'm stupid for what i said.

As for the strawman, i realized after i said it that it was not a defensible statement, as it was a blanket statement. I wasn't upset that you called it a strawman argument, merely that you couldn't be bothered to explain yourself, hence why i said that it made it look like you were merely trying to score an easy point.

I apologize if it seemed like i was putting that in your mouth. I realize that was implied, since i was responding to you. That wasn't really my intention.

And finally, I don't feel like i deserve to have you sniping at me with that stupid little picture, but hey, you aren't outright calling me stupid, so it's okay, right?
 
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