Where are the Dead?

[Eli G]

I don't have to read anything "within the Jewish culture and understanding of that time" or Hades and Tartarus would be Greek mythology concepts, Logos a Greek philosophy term and mistery a demonic occult teaching ... and not what they are in Christian spiritual teachings.

 

[Kenny]

I sincerely believed in God for 40 years and was a devout Christian for 30 years, but I never felt close to him. It wasn't for a lack of trying, either. In further response to your post, I'm reposting what I wrote on a related topic in another thread. Other members wrote something similar to the post you replied to.

I'm not sure that isn't quite enough of a standard... it would be like me saying "I believed in Reagan and was a devout Reaganite for 30 years" - but I still did not know him or have a intimate relationship.

My wife would say it this way, "I always believed in God and knew and believed that Jesus died for my sins. Even went faithfully to church for 20 years while the rest of the family didn't.... but I didn't know Jesus".

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I agree there are many factors but it would be on our side on not on the side of God (at least in our scriptures). He want to connect with anyone who wants to love Him.

That is the key - want to connect with Him -- and this is also a Baha'i belief.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.​

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

I want to love God but I do not love God. I cannot love Him since I believe he is responsible for so much suffering in this world, and not only my suffering. I am really mad at God but I am stuck believing in Him because He exists and I fear Him.

I think it isn't as complicated as we might think. IMV, we can make things more complicated.

It is like a marriage, once you say "I DO", it already is a done deal. Intimate communication is in effect so it isn't like "I want to have it" but rather, "What can I do to make the communication more fluid".

But I don't think I ever said "I DO" to God so nothing ever took effect and that's the problem.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I'm not sure that isn't quite enough of a standard... it would be like me saying "I believed in Reagan and was a devout Reaganite for 30 years" - but I still did not know him or have a intimate relationship.

My wife would say it this way, "I always believed in God and knew and believed that Jesus died for my sins. Even went faithfully to church for 20 years while the rest of the family didn't.... but I didn't know Jesus".

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion, Kenny, but since you've never walked a mile in my shoes, you obviously don't know the whole story.

 

[Eli G]

Honesty is not enough to be known by Jesus.

Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

If the person's faith is based on religious falsehoods, he has never really been associated with the God of truth, nor with his holy spirit. It's like pretending you know someone and living an imaginary relationship with him, but in real life, that person has no idea you exist. Nor can a person know what is involved in following Jesus if his idea about it is wrong

... like when a traveler goes to another country and without realizing it he violates the Law there, because what he did is not punishable in his own country but in that country it is. Even so he has to answer to the law of the country he is visiting... he should have known what was illegal in that country before visiting it.

 

[Kenny]

That is the key - want to connect with Him -- and this is also a Baha'i belief.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4
I want to love God but I do not love God. I cannot love Him since I believe he is responsible for so much suffering in this world, and not only my suffering. I am really mad at God but I am stuck believing in Him because He exists and I fear Him.

Understand. I remember a woman that approached my wife who works alongside with me. She approached her and said, "I remember saying I don't like Pastor Betsy and then realized that I really didn't even know you". They ended up as great friends.

So what we believe doesn't really mean we are correct.

What if we went to Jesus and asked him about suffering. I believe this is what He would say:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So, here we thought it was God doing all the suffering but then Jesus came on the scene to correct our understanding. It was the thief all along.

Jesus actually empowered us to stop our suffering.

But I don't think I ever said "I DO" to God so nothing ever took effect and that's the problem.

That would be true. A man can propose, but nothing happens until the woman said, "Yes".

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion, Kenny, but since you've never walked a mile in my shoes, you obviously don't know the whole story.

So true. So the bigger question is why when God said He would never leave you nor forsake you. I understand that we all have to walk our journey and my journey isn't yours but I also know that God doesn't change or have "favorites".

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is the key - want to connect with Him -- and this is also a Baha'i belief.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.​

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

I want to love God but I do not love God. I cannot love Him since I believe he is responsible for so much suffering in this world, and not only my suffering. I am really mad at God but I am stuck believing in Him because He exists and I fear Him.

But I don't think I ever said "I DO" to God so nothing ever took effect and that's the problem.

I used to believe in God, but I finally realized that I was wasting my time, and I eventually decided to give it up and move on with my life. I don't know how it is for you, but that is how it was for me. It wasn't a decision that I made lightly, but it was one of the best decisions I've ever made for my mental and emotional health. While I don't regret my decision, I do wish I had made it years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that it was the right decision.

 

[Eli G]

In Christendom there are many believers living their own illusion of "being united with Jesus". Their own mind conveys a certain complacency to them.

Truth is not something that arises from mental sensations, but from authentic knowledge of the teachings of Christ.

In the first century there were not a few believers who needed to know more than they knew and to do different and new things to really be within the Christian congregation of the time. Like in this example:

Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named A·polʹlos, a native of Alexandria, arrived in Ephʹe·sus; he was an eloquent man who was well-versed in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of Jehovah, and aglow with the spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things about Jesus, but he was acquainted only with the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, and when Pris·cilʹla and Aqʹui·la heard him, they took him into their company and explained the way of God more accurately to him. 27 Further, because he wanted to go across to A·chaʹia, the brothers wrote to the disciples, urging them to receive him kindly. So when he got there, he greatly helped those who through God’s undeserved kindness had become believers; 28 for publicly and with great intensity he thoroughly proved the Jews to be wrong, showing them from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
...19:7 In the course of events, while A·polʹlos was in Corinth, Paul went through the inland regions and came down to Ephʹe·sus. There he found some disciples 2 and said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when you became believers?” They replied to him: “Why, we have never heard that there is a holy spirit.” 3 So he said: “In what, then, were you baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism in symbol of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking in foreign languages and prophesying. 7 There were about 12 men in all.

Obviously the person who seeks God has to worship him in all the truth, not based on what his deceitful mind tells him.

John 17:17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

 

[YoursTrue]

I already had the Comcast cable technician over to my house and he looked at what has been happening with the TV in the bedroom going on all by itself. The TV is in a cabinet with the doors closed and the remote control was not anywhere where it could be turned on accidentally. When the technician tried to turn the TV on with the remote control and the cabinet closed, he could not make the TV go on.

I demonstrated what had been happening to the cable technician. After examining all my equipment and looking at all the possibilities he concluded that it had to be paranormal since there was no 'normal' explanation. You should have seen the look on his face as he drove away! It's sure a good thing I was his last call for the day. He probably hit the bar after that.

Yes, I believe it is possible that he will not be able to commuicate with me, but I won't know unless I try to communicate with him.

Sorry to say but if a technician told me that it must be paranormal, I'd be very wary of that person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry to say but if a technician told me that it must be paranormal, I'd be very wary of that person.

If it is not normal because no normal cause can be identified then it is paranormal.

 

[Trailblazer]

I used to believe in God, but I finally realized that I was wasting my time, and I eventually decided to give it up and move on with my life. I don't know how it is for you, but that is how it was for me. It wasn't a decision that I made lightly

That is not a decision I am able to make for one simple reason: I believe that God exists.

I think your belief in God was connected to Christianity and the Bible, so when you could no longer believe in them your belief in God went out the window.
My situation is different since I believe in the Baha'i Faith and the Baha'i Writings, so I have to somehow reconcile how I feel about God with those Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

So the bigger question is why when God said He would never leave you nor forsake you.

I do not want to speak for @Sgt. Pepper but I think the bigger issue is that some of us don't believe that God was 'ever there for us' in the first place, and what is in the Bible is not enough to convince us otherwise.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is not a decision I am able to make for one simple reason: I believe that God exists.

I think your belief in God was connected to Christianity and the Bible, so when you could no longer believe in them your belief in God went out the window.
My situation is different since I believe in the Baha'i Faith and the Baha'i Writings, so I have to somehow reconcile how I feel about God with those Writings.

I can understand that. As I've previously stated, I don't believe that there is any kind of sufficient evidence for the existence of God or any other deity, for that matter. I don't entirely believe in the existence of gods because I haven't seen any evidence that fully convinces me of their existence. And while I practice Wicca, I will acknowledge that I lack sufficient empirical evidence or alleged evidence that any deities exist. However, I choose to believe in the prospect of supernatural deities while recognizing that I can't prove or disprove their existence. I've always been drawn to spirituality and am fascinated by beliefs in the supernatural, but I'm not willing to state that I'm completely confident, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the God of the Bible or any other deities actually exist. I'm not all-knowing and all-powerful, and I can't be in all places at once or explore all of space and time. So, as far as I'm concerned, I can't honestly determine whether there is only one God, if there are other deities, or if there aren't any deities at all. Therefore, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. I've made the decision that I don't need or want the biblical God in my life, and I'm content not to follow any deities at this point in my life either.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I do not want to speak for @Sgt. Pepper but I think the bigger issue is that some of us don't believe that God was 'ever there for us' in the first place, and what is in the Bible is not enough to convince us otherwise.

^ This.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can understand that. As I've previously stated, I don't believe that there is any kind of sufficient evidence for the existence of God or any other deity, for that matter. I don't entirely believe in the existence of gods because I haven't seen any evidence that fully convinces me of their existence. And while I practice Wicca, I will acknowledge that I lack sufficient empirical evidence or alleged evidence that any deities exist. However, I choose to believe in the prospect of supernatural deities while recognizing that I can't prove or disprove their existence. I've always been drawn to spirituality and am fascinated by beliefs in the supernatural, but I'm not willing to state that I'm completely confident, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the God of the Bible or any other deities actually exist. I'm not all-knowing and all-powerful, and I can't be in all places at once or explore all of space and time. So, as far as I'm concerned, I can't honestly determine whether there is only one God, if there are other deities, or if there aren't any deities at all. Therefore, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. I've made the decision that I don't need or want the biblical God in my life, and I'm content not to follow any deities at this point in my life either.

As always, I appreciate your honesty with yourself and others.

 

[Trailblazer]

Understand. I remember a woman that approached my wife who works alongside with me. She approached her and said, "I remember saying I don't like Pastor Betsy and then realized that I really didn't even know you". They ended up as great friends.

So what we believe doesn't really mean we are correct.

I think there is some truth to that and I would say that what we think we believe, owing to how we feel emotionally, does not always represent what we really believe.

A case in point is how I say I do not love God.

According to the definition love is an intense feeling of deep affection. I do not feel that way about God.

@Truthseeker and I talk a a lot about my love for God and this is what he said:

Truthseeker said:
You also forget about this Hidden Word:

48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

@Truthseeker said that he has seen me display these qualities, and I know I display them, so according to Baha'u'llah I love God, even if I do not "feel" that way.

Despite my feelings about God and what I think is a lack of love I always endure the trials and I have a lot of patience.

 

[Eli G]

(...) some of us don't believe that God was 'ever there for us' in the first place, and what is in the Bible is not enough to convince us otherwise.

... and who did not know that this she would say?

A supposed Bahai talking to a spiritist about consulting the dead, who suddenly says that she doesn't feel God with her and the Bible is not enough ...

***mod edit***

 

[YoursTrue]

LOL - yes, and probably an unending question.

My position comes from John 1:1 - The Word was God and 1:14 and The Word was made flesh and they called him Jesus.

So, as The Word, He was fully God. In the flesh we go by Philippians 2 where He emptied Himself of His God attributes and became fully man.

In His resurrection, He received back the glory He had as God and now if fully God and fully man.

Ok maybe later. Don't want to put too much weight on.

 

[YoursTrue]

If it is not normal because no normal cause can be identified then it is paranormal.

Maybe the tech just didn't know. It happens sometimes. But anyway it seems like a pretty inept way to "communicate"