Where are the Dead?

[Trailblazer]

There is something the JWs can teach you that is very important here right now:

a mandate is one thing, a principle is quite another.

I already know wthat since we have mandates and principles in the Baha'i Writings. Mandates we call Laws and we have a Book of Laws. Principles are contained in the teachings.

Let me explain the difference: the Bible does not say that smoking is bad, but it does include a principle that helps you deduce that smoking displeases God. The principle involved in this case could be this one:

2 Cor. 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Isn't it true that if you correctly understand the principle in 2Cor.7:1 you would realize that if you smoked you wouldn't be taking it seriously?

There is no need for the Bible to say that Christians should not smoke. We know this from the principles we learn from it. And that's why you need to study the Bible with a Jehovah's Witness

Baha'is also have principles we follow. Tobacco is not forbidden on the Law but we are admonished to avoid it.

“O friends of God! Experience hath shown how much the renouncing of tobacco, wine and opium, giveth health, strength and intellectual enjoyments, penetration of judgment and physical vigor. There exists today a tribe which refrains and abstains from tobacco, alcohol and opium and it completely excels all others in power, in bravery, in health, beauty and grace. A single one of these men can withstand ten men of other tribes, and this hath been universally proved; that is to say, generally, the individuals of this tribe are superior to the individuals of the other tribes.

Therefore strive that the greatest cleanliness and sanctity, which is the great desire of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, should be resplendent among the Bahá’ís, and that the companions of God should surpass the rest of mankind in all conditions and perfections; that they may be physically and morally superior to others; that through cleanliness and purity, refinement and health, they may be the chief of wise men, and that by their affranchisement, their prudence, and the control of their desires, they may be the princes of the pure, the free and the wise.”
Bahá’í World Faith, p. 336

 

[YoursTrue]

Baha'is do not believe in Satan or evil spirits.

Demon Possession, the Devil and True Exorcism

Who can forget the movie The Exorcist? I wish I could forget it! In a very real sense, I already have—allow me to explain.

bahaiteachings.org

wow, I didn't know that. (wow) Thanks for saying...lol...

 

[Eli G]

I can see Bahais say one thing but they are not totally honest ... sorry for being this honest.

You cann't say that you respect the Bible if you consider Jesus had "evil" inside him, and that Satan does not exist.

Or you are really respecting the Bible or you are not ... and you are not.

I can accept that if you don't mind what the Bible says, you get involved in spiritism, but if the Bible doesn't really matter to you, you don't have to pretend being interested on what is Law or what is principle IN THE BIBLE, something you're not even going to really take seriously.
Honesty above all ... and I see that there is a lack of that around here.

Have a good one.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer Can you tell me who do you think tempted Jesus?

I will be glad to tell you. Nobody external to Jesus tempted Jesus. When Jesus said said unto Peter "Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" Jesus was referring to worldly things that are not of God, things of the flesh.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

In those verses, Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in Jesus’ Way. For whoever will live for self and the world shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus shall gain eternal life.

If we live for self and the worldly things, we gain the world but we lose our soul because we lose eternal life. The soul that gains eternal life is near to God so it is in heaven. The soul that loses eternal life continues to exist in the spiritual world (since all souls are immortal) but that soul is far from God, so it is in hell.

Man has two natures, a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature. Those forces are man's lower material nature, the evil ego within that he always has to fight against. It is not an evil entity outside of man. In the following verse, Jesus was taking to His lower material nature which He was struggling to ward off. Jesus was not talking to an evil entity called Satan.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

In Verse 23, the things that are not of God, but are rather of men, are the things that cause us to sin, our selfish desires (things of the flesh which men savor), such as sex and alcohol.

Then in verse 24, Jesus said to His disciples to deny their selfish desires and instead follow Him.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Then in verses 25 and 26, Jesus warns us not to exchange our eternal life for our selfish desires that cause us to sin.” To lose one’s soul means to lose eternal life, since Eternal Life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him and following in His way. For whosoever will live for the things of the flesh shall lose it (eternal life), and whosoever will sacrifice those things for Jesus’ sake shall find it (it refers to eternal life).

Matthew 16:25-26 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[Eli G]

This is the Biblical account:

Matt. 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. 2 After he had fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, he felt hungry. 3 And the Tempter approached and said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”


5 Then the Devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him on the battlement of the temple 6 and said to him: “If you are a son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written: ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you,’ and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”


8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” 11 Then the Devil left him, and look! angels came and began to minister to him.

Enjoy it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, bahais believe that there was an "evil, refers to the lower nature in" Jesus?

In a spiritist version you would say that Jesus was talking to a dead person, but never with Satan ...

What were you telling me before about the logic to analyze the Scriptures?

No, Jesus did not have a lower nature since Jesus was sinless. Only humans have a lower nature, and they also have a higher nature.

Jesus was talking to Peter and saying that things of the lower nature of man are offensive. That did not mean that Jesus had a lower nature.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or maybe seize some infants and smash their heads against the rocks (Psalm 137:9), or how about killing some witches (Exodus 22:18) in a public witch burning? I hear Salem, Massachusetts, is nice this time of year. If we're going to follow the "Good Book" in regards to punishing people for their "sins" by killing them, then we will need to kill all the men, women, children, infants, cattle and sheep, camels, and donkeys (1 Samuel 15:2–3). Major massacre.

*WINNER*

 

[Truthseeker]

This is the Biblical account:

Matt. 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. 2 After he had fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, he felt hungry. 3 And the Tempter approached and said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”


5 Then the Devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him on the battlement of the temple 6 and said to him: “If you are a son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written: ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you,’ and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”


8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” 11 Then the Devil left him, and look! angels came and began to minister to him.

Enjoy it.

The Devil is the selfish and material side of ourselves. The reference to the Devil is symbolic of that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sadducees, certain sect of Judaism in the first century, didn't believe in angels, spirits nor in the resurrection.

Are bahais some kind of Neo-Sadducees?

No, we are not.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

*WINNER*

Thank you.

 

[Eli G]

No, Jesus did not have a lower nature since Jesus was sinless. Only humans have a lower nature, and they also have a higher nature.

...

Then Satan was a real spirit person talking to him.

You believe an spiritist when she says she talks with invisible spirit dead, but you don't believe when the Bible says Satan talks to Jesus. Something is very wrong with Bahais ... I don't need any Bahai or Bahai prophet to tell me what I have to accept out of the Bible or not, as you seem to do. That account of a dialog between Jesus and Satan is as real as a demon can talk to a spiritist pretending to be a dead person.

This dialog is real also:

Job 1:6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.
7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.”

There is not any "evil" inside Jehovah to talk internally to Him ... that was a real spirit person pushing God to let him try Job.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can see Bahais say one thing but they are not totally honest ... sorry for being this honest.

You cann't say that you respect the Bible if you consider Jesus had "evil" inside him, and that Satan does not exist.

I never said that Jesus had evil inside of Him.
I can respect the Bible and say that Satan is only an allegory for the lower material nature of man.

 

[Eli G]

I don't have more time for you today.
Have a good one.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the Biblical account:

Matt. 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. 2 After he had fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, he felt hungry. 3 And the Tempter approached and said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4 But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”


5 Then the Devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him on the battlement of the temple 6 and said to him: “If you are a son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written: ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you,’ and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”


8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” 11 Then the Devil left him, and look! angels came and began to minister to him.

Enjoy it.

The Devil is an allegory.

"Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil."
That means Jesus was tempted to follow the things of the flesh.

There is no such entity as the Devil.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then Satan was a real spirit person talking to him.

No, Jesus was musing out loud to Himself.

 

[Truthseeker]

Then Satan was a real spirit person talking to him.

You believe an spiritist when she says she talks with invisible spirit dead, but you don't believe when the Bible says Satan talks to Jesus. Something is very wrong with Bahais ... I don't need any Bahai or Bahai prophet to tell me what I have to accept out of the Bible or not, as you seem to do. That account of a dialog between Jesus and Satan is as real as a demon can talk to a spiritist pretending to be a dead person.

This dialog is real also:

Job 1:6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.
7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.”

There is not any "evil" inside Jehovah to talk internally to Him ... that was a real spirit person pushing God to let him try Job.

Do you really think a person on earth would be privy to this dialogue? It's a story, not something that happened. It's similar to a parable by Jesus. Also, Satan in the story is a servant of God doing His bidding. It's what the concept of Satan was understood to be then.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you really think a person on earth would be privy to this dialogue? It's a story, not something that happened. It's similar to a parable by Jesus. Also, Satan in the story is a servant of God doing His bidding. It's what the concept of Satan was understood to be then.

*WINNER*

"It's a story, not something that happened."
"It's what the concept of Satan was understood to be then."

That's the key to understanding it. Why didn't I think of that?

 

[Trailblazer]

When He said "Father forgiven them for they know not what they are doing", that was the definition of love. Feelings can come and go. Betrayal can come and go. Difficulties will come and go. His commitment never left even when all the feelings weren't there.

I think love is more than feelings.

Thoughts?

Yes, I agree that love is more than feelings. Love is commitment and actions.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, we are not.

Lol you just get messages from the living dead now maybe. Ok ty and bye.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Devil is the selfish and material side of ourselves. The reference to the Devil is symbolic of that.

You can say what you want. Ty for letting us know. Lol it's been interesting if nothing else.