Where are the Dead?

[Truthseeker]

Yes, hi. Exactly!
I had a pretty close family arrangement, and whoever God decides to bring back to life I would like to get to know them. and everlasting life -- ah, how wonderful, we can enjoy everyone forever. what a wonderful promise -- Isaiah 65.
17 "For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating."
Yay!!

This is a silly argument. The genealogy differs between Matthew and Luke. Some say one is actually for Mary, and the other for Joseph. But when you look at the genealogy between David and Abraham, those are different in the two Gospels. The genealogy in the Bible is off, for whatever reason. But who cares if that is off? Why is that important to some believers?

 

[cataway]

If I thought all the groups calling themselves Christian were following Christ, I'd feel free to join. But I don't. There are many things to say about the scriptures you posted but suffice it to speak of my first comment.

Jesus him self said there would be false fallowers, that they would be in opisthion . ok you don't know that and lump all together.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus him self said there would be false fallowers, that they would be in opisthion . ok you don't know that and lump all together.

Again, I repeat but in a different way...if I thought a group was truly following Jesus as viewed in the Bible, I'd go with that group.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is a silly argument. The genealogy differs between Matthew and Luke. Some say one is actually for Mary, and the other for Joseph. But when you look at the genealogy between David and Abraham, those are different in the two Gospels. The genealogy in the Bible is off, for whatever reason. But who cares if that is off? Why is that important to some believers?

As I understand that they are both descendants of David, leading to the Messiah. It's not off.

 

[YoursTrue]

And I agree with all those scriptures.

But the only support that Lazarus is just a parable is the statement of "Lazarus is a parable"...

Whereas, at least, my position has more than just the statement that it isn't. Abraham is a real person. Lazarus is a proper name. It answers the question of where the righteous is at. It supports to truth that Hell is real. Jesus said definitely "There was a poor man named Lazarus" and not "I liken the kingdom "as" a poor man.." and so much more

And since I remain in the word, don't doubt the word, my position has more logic and it is easier to understand as such.

I'm going to go over that account.

 

[Eli G]

And I agree with all those scriptures.

But the only support that Lazarus is just a parable is the statement of "Lazarus is a parable"...

Whereas, at least, my position has more than just the statement that it isn't. Abraham is a real person. Lazarus is a proper name. It answers the question of where the righteous is at. It supports to truth that Hell is real. Jesus said definitely "There was a poor man named Lazarus" and not "I liken the kingdom "as" a poor man.." and so much more

And since I remain in the word, don't doubt the word, my position has more logic and it is easier to understand as such.

Kenny, the fact that the whole story is a parable does not mean it has not real meaning. That real meaning allows Jesus to use real characters and symbols, like using the word Hades to talk about the place where the rich man went.

None of this implies that the story is literal. If you meditate in all the details you would know that. Take some time and meditate in some of those details so you will inderstand that it is impossible that this was a literal story.

 

[cataway]

Again, I repeat but in a different way...if I thought a group was truly following Jesus as viewed in the Bible, I'd go with that group.

you will not find it till you try . it could be looking you right in the face

 

[YoursTrue]

you will not find it till you try . it could be looking you right in the face

I found it. Or rather, God found me and sent someone that made a lot of sense to me but I must say it took time. Thanks for inquiring though, appreciate it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Kenny, the fact that the whole story is a parable does not mean it has not real meaning. That real meaning allows Jesus to use real characters and symbols, like using the word Hades to talk about the place where the rich man went.

None of this implies that the story is literal. If you meditate in all the details you would know that. Take some time and meditate in some of those details so you will inderstand that it is impossible that this was a literal story.

I would like to add that the account doesn't say that Lazarus was buried and went to hell, Hades or Sheol. But it does say the rich man “died and was buried” and found himself “in Hades”. The idea that Lazarus was in heaven was not expressed there. But he certainly was in a more favorable place than the tormented rich man

 

[Eli G]

Neither are the words soul or spirit used anywhere in the parable. The story tells of persons with bodies moved to figurative places.

 

[Eli G]

This is a silly argument. The genealogy differs between Matthew and Luke. Some say one is actually for Mary, and the other for Joseph. But when you look at the genealogy between David and Abraham, those are different in the two Gospels. The genealogy in the Bible is off, for whatever reason. But who cares if that is off? Why is that important to some believers?

Regardless of any difference or the causes of it in both evangelical genealogies, it is obvious that the writers found the lists in official records.

The Jews kept these lists well guarded, since for them it was of greater importance to know the ancestors for religious positions such as the priesthood and political positions such as the right to reign.

Even in modern times many nations have kept records of ancestors, in religious or government offices.

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, the fact that the whole story is a parable does not mean it has not real meaning. That real meaning allows Jesus to use real characters and symbols, like using the word Hades to talk about the place where the rich man went.

None of this implies that the story is literal. If you meditate in all the details you would know that. Take some time and meditate in some of those details so you will inderstand that it is impossible that this was a literal story.

Thank you, and I have.

Can you name me one other parable that uses proper names?

 

[Eli G]

Well, proper names can be used anywhere without meaning they are used in a literal context.

You can read, for example, that the 12 fundation stones of the heavenly Jerusalem have the 12 names of the apostles. But that is just a vision, right?

Rev. 21:14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus him self said there would be false fallowers, that they would be in opisthion . ok you don't know that and lump all together.

I think you misunderstood my comment. But it's ok. Take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, proper names can be used anywhere without meaning they are used in a literal context.

You can read, for example, that the 12 fundation stones of the heavenly Jerusalem have the 12 names of the apostles. But that is just a vision, right?

Rev. 21:14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.

Yes. And the name Lazarus was a common Jewish name at the time. It is derived from the Hebrew for Eleazar meaning "God has helped."

 

[Eli G]

Jesus used the figure of Abraham many times to confront the Jews. This is a good example:

Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God. 30 And look! there are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”

Jesus is telling the Jews that their hopes based on kinship with Abraham will not cause God to show partiality to them. The same idea appears in the parable of the good Samaritan, and in many others. These parables have a special meaning for the Jews, because of their delusion of being especially favored in front of God, despite their evil deeds.

The figure of Abraham and also that of Moses, even if they are also important for Christians, are less significant for non-Jewish.

 

[nPeace]

And I agree with all those scriptures.

But the only support that Lazarus is just a parable is the statement of "Lazarus is a parable"...

Whereas, at least, my position has more than just the statement that it isn't. Abraham is a real person. Lazarus is a proper name. It answers the question of where the righteous is at. It supports to truth that Hell is real. Jesus said definitely "There was a poor man named Lazarus" and not "I liken the kingdom "as" a poor man.." and so much more

And since I remain in the word, don't doubt the word, my position has more logic and it is easier to understand as such.

Well, if you believe that is the truth, and you are in the light, then you agree it makes a difference, right?
It's either true that people are being tormented in hell's flames, after death, or it's not.
So, if what you believe is true, to believe otherwise is to believe the lie, and such ones cannot be on the side of truth. Agreed?

 

[nPeace]

you will not find it till you try . it could be looking you right in the face

She's on your side.

 

[Eli G]

Interestingly, in other parables or parallel illustrations where Jesus uses the figure of Abraham, he does not speak of his bosom as a place, but calls the place "the Kingdom of God (of the heaven)." Actually a host's bosom was the seat closest to him at the table where dinner was served to visitors (Cf John 13:23); so Abraham's bosom was only a Jewish representation of what the kingdom of God would really be, where each person is given a final destination according to his deeds, especially regarding obtaining the favor of God who invites some to be in that new world, the kingdom that he will establish on earth.

Matt. 8:11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”

... so the whole illustration is about a banquet, a table served with abundant food... and that is precisely the contrast between the rich and the poor in the parable.

 

[nPeace]

I would like to add that the account doesn't say that Lazarus was buried and went to hell, Hades or Sheol. But it does say the rich man “died and was buried” and found himself “in Hades”. The idea that Lazarus was in heaven was not expressed there. But he certainly was in a more favorable place than the tormented rich man

That's a good point YoursTrue. Thanks.
I wonder what Ken thinks about that. Let's ask.
@Kenny, according to Jesus, the rich man dies, and is buried. While the beggar dies, and is carried off by the angels, to Abraham's side.
(Luke 16:21, 22) Now in the course of time, the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s side. “Also, the rich man died and was buried.

Can we spend a little time here, if you don't mind.
Can you explain that in real terms. Thanks.