the resurrection is to say u will be .held accountable for what u do know n what u do about what u know as 1st trumpet will sound n render everything to dust then the 2nd trumpet will sound and everything will be brought up from the dust as i believe its 2 trumpets to alert to judgement day which u will be resurrected to n that all must face if they sinned as judgement day is not to return upon ur aggressors in life as thats handled while in here but in judgement day u are judged by judgements that are used to deal with ur sins as he has a certain predetermined matters that if u violate then u are held accountable for and when God uses judgements to address what u did then u can only witness the judgement applied to ur specific offense as god not condemn u cuz he was upset or felt angry of it as its standard n if u violate one of those standards then judgement is. applied to justly maintain firm stance on matter so yes there are specific sins thats god uses to address any way u may of offended so if u commit a sin then u can expect to be dealt with justly according to ur violation penalty wise as i was saying if u trust in the truth n no other by not equating to god ANYTHING then the truth will find u in a way that u are not only protected from others by it but it will also bring to ur success any efforts u exercised in the goodness of makeing it happen that u will find that just how beautiful are the things that were in ur abiluty to attain despite nobody else being as able as u could to find urself in position u would never choose to sacrifice in vanity as the things i seek are so far. beyond me that only god could see it through in the way i am hopeing for n if what i see is not of reach i will complete the rest of my time here in looking for i am trying to maintain by hope in faith by belief but i will literally finish my time here in testing scriptures in nature so that god may show me the things i need to see so that i may know with certainty what i am able n not able to do for the golry honor n zeal of whats truthful n most able to see for me what i cant do for myself
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Where are the Dead?
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
I do wonder how Luke 4:41 is it imposing my beliefs when I am posting the belief's of Jesus as per Scripture.
Since Jesus warned others in order to be blessed by God, blessings is what I want for you.
It would be nice to meet you on the other side of Armageddon when there will be global Peace on Earth.
After 46 pages, have we figured out where the dead are? 
I find at Acts 24:15 that 'there will be' a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous ( KJV just and unjust )
Since "death" is the total complete asking price tag for sin according to Romans 6:23,7 then on Resurrection Day ( Jesus' thousand year day ) then what one does ' after ' they are resurrected is what will count.
As with Adam there is NO post-mortem penalty for sins, NO double jeopardy to be paid for past sins.
As for the wicked they will be 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 37:38; 92:7; 104:35; 145:20 B
The wicked are ones who commit the unforgivable sin of Matt. 12:32 and will never be forgiven.
We are now given the choice to repent if we don't want to perish ( be destroyed - 2nd Peter 3:9 )
In the pages of the Bible we find the dead are dead asleep until Resurrection Day.After 46 pages, have we figured out where the dead are?
Jesus taught the dead sleep as do the old Hebrew Scriptures according to John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Endlessly arguing over an old book isn't going to get anyone anywhere, and never has. Like @Rival , I'd rather try asking them.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
After 46 pages, have we figured out where the dead are?
No, I do not believe that has been adequately established in this thread. I know that soul sleep has been mentioned, but this belief isn't the only one that Christians have about the afterlife and what supposedly happens to people after they die, as I explained in my posts #66 and #82. I don't believe that they have a better understanding of the afterlife than anyone else, despite their belief to the contrary. I believe they also speculate, just like everyone else does.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe they do and still insist on that even after I tell them otherwise.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The only record of that is the witch of Endor bringing up Samuel from his soul sleep. Today those who believe in the Resurrection know that they are free to go where they wish after death although God can preempt that.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I do not believe Jesus says that and he does make a statement about reincarnation.
Oh, I know. That comment was sarcastic. Nothing is ever settled in these threads because they're just arguing over vague old books that probably are incorrect in the first place.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Word of God is dependable.
nPeace said : "Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?
Some scriptures I found answers these questions...
Basically, those scriptures tell us
On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?
Hi @nPeace
I am coming late to this discussion and probably much of this is pointed out and debated I have to simply add my take on the early Christian religious literature on this point.
While I can't say what "we find" (meaning you or other individuals "find" in the texts as you apply your personal interpretation to the texts,
I actually think that the earliest Judeo-Christians with their doctrines and their interpretation of scriptures are more rational and logical than the later theories and interpretations developed by later Christian movements. At least I've never seen any advantage to the later Christian interpretations and theories.
The early decensus literature and Christian commentaries make it clear that their belief was that the spirit within each of us lives on after the body dies and continues to be cognizant and communicative in various portions of Hades / World of Spirits / Paradise (whatever one wants to call it) while awaiting the resurrection of the body.
In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful.
Clear
εισετζτζτζ μ εισ καιρο
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?
Some scriptures I found answers these questions...
Basically, those scriptures tell us
- the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
- the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
- the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.
On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?
Hi @nPeace
I am coming late to this discussion and probably much of this is pointed out and debated I have to simply add my take on the early Christian religious literature on this point.
While I can't say what "we find" (meaning you or other individuals "find" in the texts as you apply your personal interpretation to the texts,
I actually think that the earliest Judeo-Christians with their doctrines and their interpretation of scriptures are more rational and logical than the later theories and interpretations developed by later Christian movements. At least I've never seen any advantage to the later Christian interpretations and theories.
The early decensus literature and Christian commentaries make it clear that their belief was that the spirit within each of us lives on after the body dies and continues to be cognizant and communicative in various portions of Hades / World of Spirits / Paradise (whatever one wants to call it) while awaiting the resurrection of the body.
In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful.
Clear
εισετζτζτζ μ εισ καιρο
POST ONE OF TWO
One of my frustrations is when individuals simply make historical religious claims without providing any historical data. I noticed that with my last post, I was guilty of the very thing of not providing at least an introduction of historical data to support my opinion that the earliest Christianity and their literature seem to me to have more rational and logical models of what happens after death than the later various Christian Movements. below is some introduction to some of this literature that provide examples of this early doctrine.
Though I am not Catholic, I sometimes wish that the protestants had taken specific doctrines with them when they split from the Roman-based Christian movement that later became the Roman Catholic Church.
Though the descriptions differ somewhat from the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality. The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.
1) REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judeo-Christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
2) ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.
Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
I think that the catholic version of this early doctrine took on a bit different character partly because in some contexts, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts.
3) THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES
For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
.”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
One of my frustrations is when individuals simply make historical religious claims without providing any historical data. I noticed that with my last post, I was guilty of the very thing of not providing at least an introduction of historical data to support my opinion that the earliest Christianity and their literature seem to me to have more rational and logical models of what happens after death than the later various Christian Movements. below is some introduction to some of this literature that provide examples of this early doctrine.
Though I am not Catholic, I sometimes wish that the protestants had taken specific doctrines with them when they split from the Roman-based Christian movement that later became the Roman Catholic Church.
Though the descriptions differ somewhat from the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality. The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.
1) REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judeo-Christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
2) ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.
Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
I think that the catholic version of this early doctrine took on a bit different character partly because in some contexts, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts.
3) THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES
For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
.”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
POST TWO OF TWO
4) SPIRITS ARE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate,to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3 en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : Quote:
"I (Jesus) went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
5) MANY OF THOSE SPIRITS IN THE WORLD OF SPIRITS RESURRECTED WITH JESUS AT THE TIME OF HIS RESURRECTION
The biblical reference in Matthew 27: 52 tells us of this period of time saying : "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
It is a wonderful story of the fulfillment of the promise of God to Adam and to of the other patriarchs and others that they would be resurrected someday as the prophets and the scriptures described from the very beginning.
In any case, I think the earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines on the subject of where the dead are, are the most rational and most logical interpretations of sacred text and the most logical doctrines that I have seen in describing historical Judeo-Christianity and it's beliefs on the subject.
Clear
εισετζτζτζ μ εισ καιρο
4) SPIRITS ARE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :
“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate,to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3 en 44:1-3)
It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)
The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.
One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”
In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : Quote:
"I (Jesus) went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)
5) MANY OF THOSE SPIRITS IN THE WORLD OF SPIRITS RESURRECTED WITH JESUS AT THE TIME OF HIS RESURRECTION
The biblical reference in Matthew 27: 52 tells us of this period of time saying : "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).
It is a wonderful story of the fulfillment of the promise of God to Adam and to of the other patriarchs and others that they would be resurrected someday as the prophets and the scriptures described from the very beginning.
In any case, I think the earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines on the subject of where the dead are, are the most rational and most logical interpretations of sacred text and the most logical doctrines that I have seen in describing historical Judeo-Christianity and it's beliefs on the subject.
Clear
εισετζτζτζ μ εισ καιρο
nPeace
Veteran Member
I think you left out the scriptures. There's Luke 20:38.
However, I believe the scriptures do support these three points you made.
You are early for the discussion.
I see your well organize information below, thanks, but I would not be able to address it, right away.
I wonder if @Hockeycowboy has some time to look at it with you. He's usually quite busy.
Hi @nPeace :
1) REGARDING THE POINT THAT EARLY CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATIONS AND BELIEFS SEEM SUPERIOR TO THOSE OF LATER CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS
nPeace said : “I see your well organize information below, thanks, but I would not be able to address it, right away.” (post 98)
Thank you, there is really no obligation for you to respond to my historical point. I suspect your time is as limited as mine.
While the creation of multiple later Christian religions are, in the main, based on similar biblical texts, their various interpretation of those texts and the subsequent doctrines that they create do not, to me, seem as logical as the earliest Christianity with it’s texts, it’s interpretations of those texts and with it’s specific Christian doctrines.
I am merely pointing out that I think the earliest Christians with their interpretations of scriptures and their doctrines seem, to me, to be more logical and rational and I do not see any advantage to the later Christian movements interpretations over those of the earliest Christian movement.
2) REGARDING LUKE 20:38 AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE PATRIARCHS WHO ARE LIVING TO GOD
nPeace said : “I think you left out the scriptures. There's Luke 20:38.
However, I believe the scriptures do support these three points you made.” (post #98)
I agree, that in the context of the earliest Christian texts that describe their beliefs and their interpretations of their scriptures support the points I made.
Regarding Luke 20:38 and the question of the resurrection
You are perfectly correct that I did not include Luke 20:38.
Instead, I was describing the early Christian literature which described their beliefs, and their doctrines which result from their interpretations of the texts they had. For examples :
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” (Luke 20:38)
...I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”(Matthew 22:32)
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mark 12:27) ουκ εστιν ο θεος νεκρων αλλα ζωντων.
Luke 20:38 (and the other similar statements from Matthew and Mark) all were in response to the question of resurrection.
The same Greek verb which each author uses in each of these sentences is not in the past tense, but rather each author uses the same verb ”living” (ζωντων) and all use it is in the active and present tense.
Thus they are not describing those who “lived” (past tense), but rather they are described as presently “living” (present tense) to God (though they are "dead" to us living.
3) WHAT DID SUCH VERSES MEAN TO THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS IN THEIR INTERPRETATION AND BELIEFS
The historical question is not what such verses mean to us, but instead, the historical question is what the verses meant to the earliest Christians and how they described their beliefs and interpretations of such texts.
An example from early Christian decensus literature :
In the early Christian text Gospel of Nicodemus (acts of Pilate, etc.) this literature describes the world of spirits by two of those individuals who had resurrected with Jesus after his resurrection as described in Matthew 27:52 “The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.”
The text of Gospel of Nicodemus describes the church leaders interview with two of those who had died but were among those described in matthew as having resurrected with Christs’ resurrection. After Christs' resurrection, the Church leaders are discussing how marvelous Jesus Christs' resurrection was. Joseph of Arimathea is commenting to them, saying :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea.” They therefore sent men, and they found their tombs opened and empty. Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them."
They then go to Arimathaea and find the two men.
The two men describe the decensus of Jesus’ spirit into Hades to bring them out (as the early literature promised). They write : “We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another. And immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.”
The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.
The text continues describing others in this world of spirits saying : “ Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
At this point, Seth tells the story including the promise to Adam that “the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit.
Satan laments : “…I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead. And I tell you this: By the darkness which surrounds us, if you bring him here, none of the dead will be left for me.”
“…While Hades was thus speaking with Satan, the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out....“
I’ve left out much from the literature, but the last chapter ends with the two resurrected brothers saying : “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the Passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell
While G. of Nicodemus is quite wonderful in it’s own way, there are many, many texts regarding the decensus of Jesus Christ into this world of spirits in the genre of decensus literature.
4) EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE REFLECTS THE BELIEFS OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS WHO WROTE THE TEXTS
While no literature of any religious movement proves this doctrine to be true or false based on such literature, the literature demonstrates the beliefs of such movements, their interpretations of scripture and their practices.
In any case, my point is that I think the earliest Christian movement seems, to me, to have more logical and rational doctrines and interpretations of sacred texts than Christian religions and movements created in the later centuries. I do not seen that the other movements have any advantage over the earliest Christian worldviews.
nPeace. Thanks so much for having the insight to ask a substantial and profound question ("where are the dead?").
So many of the discussions are much less important that the discussion you started.
As an aside, I also like HockeyCowboy and respect him a great deal (as you seem to)
Clear
μνε εισε μ εισ καιρο
1) REGARDING THE POINT THAT EARLY CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATIONS AND BELIEFS SEEM SUPERIOR TO THOSE OF LATER CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS
nPeace said : “I see your well organize information below, thanks, but I would not be able to address it, right away.” (post 98)
Thank you, there is really no obligation for you to respond to my historical point. I suspect your time is as limited as mine.
While the creation of multiple later Christian religions are, in the main, based on similar biblical texts, their various interpretation of those texts and the subsequent doctrines that they create do not, to me, seem as logical as the earliest Christianity with it’s texts, it’s interpretations of those texts and with it’s specific Christian doctrines.
I am merely pointing out that I think the earliest Christians with their interpretations of scriptures and their doctrines seem, to me, to be more logical and rational and I do not see any advantage to the later Christian movements interpretations over those of the earliest Christian movement.
2) REGARDING LUKE 20:38 AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE PATRIARCHS WHO ARE LIVING TO GOD
nPeace said : “I think you left out the scriptures. There's Luke 20:38.
However, I believe the scriptures do support these three points you made.” (post #98)
I agree, that in the context of the earliest Christian texts that describe their beliefs and their interpretations of their scriptures support the points I made.
Regarding Luke 20:38 and the question of the resurrection
You are perfectly correct that I did not include Luke 20:38.
Instead, I was describing the early Christian literature which described their beliefs, and their doctrines which result from their interpretations of the texts they had. For examples :
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” (Luke 20:38)
...I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”(Matthew 22:32)
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mark 12:27) ουκ εστιν ο θεος νεκρων αλλα ζωντων.
Luke 20:38 (and the other similar statements from Matthew and Mark) all were in response to the question of resurrection.
The same Greek verb which each author uses in each of these sentences is not in the past tense, but rather each author uses the same verb ”living” (ζωντων) and all use it is in the active and present tense.
Thus they are not describing those who “lived” (past tense), but rather they are described as presently “living” (present tense) to God (though they are "dead" to us living.
3) WHAT DID SUCH VERSES MEAN TO THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS IN THEIR INTERPRETATION AND BELIEFS
The historical question is not what such verses mean to us, but instead, the historical question is what the verses meant to the earliest Christians and how they described their beliefs and interpretations of such texts.
An example from early Christian decensus literature :
In the early Christian text Gospel of Nicodemus (acts of Pilate, etc.) this literature describes the world of spirits by two of those individuals who had resurrected with Jesus after his resurrection as described in Matthew 27:52 “The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.”
The text of Gospel of Nicodemus describes the church leaders interview with two of those who had died but were among those described in matthew as having resurrected with Christs’ resurrection. After Christs' resurrection, the Church leaders are discussing how marvelous Jesus Christs' resurrection was. Joseph of Arimathea is commenting to them, saying :
“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea.” They therefore sent men, and they found their tombs opened and empty. Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them."
They then go to Arimathaea and find the two men.
The two men describe the decensus of Jesus’ spirit into Hades to bring them out (as the early literature promised). They write : “We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another. And immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.”
The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.
The text continues describing others in this world of spirits saying : “ Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”
At this point, Seth tells the story including the promise to Adam that “the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit.
Satan laments : “…I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead. And I tell you this: By the darkness which surrounds us, if you bring him here, none of the dead will be left for me.”
“…While Hades was thus speaking with Satan, the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out....“
I’ve left out much from the literature, but the last chapter ends with the two resurrected brothers saying : “All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the Passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell
While G. of Nicodemus is quite wonderful in it’s own way, there are many, many texts regarding the decensus of Jesus Christ into this world of spirits in the genre of decensus literature.
4) EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE REFLECTS THE BELIEFS OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS WHO WROTE THE TEXTS
While no literature of any religious movement proves this doctrine to be true or false based on such literature, the literature demonstrates the beliefs of such movements, their interpretations of scripture and their practices.
In any case, my point is that I think the earliest Christian movement seems, to me, to have more logical and rational doctrines and interpretations of sacred texts than Christian religions and movements created in the later centuries. I do not seen that the other movements have any advantage over the earliest Christian worldviews.
nPeace. Thanks so much for having the insight to ask a substantial and profound question ("where are the dead?").
So many of the discussions are much less important that the discussion you started.
As an aside, I also like HockeyCowboy and respect him a great deal (as you seem to)
Clear
μνε εισε μ εισ καιρο
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Hey Clear, how have you been?
That was some enlightening information you posted, I’ve never read anything from that text.
I was wondering, do you believe the Apocryphal books are inspired?
As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we don’t. We feel that if they were from Jehovah God, He would have included them in the accepted 66-book Bible Canon.
We don’t put much stock into any other ancient writings! (Or I should say, we don’t consider any other books / texts, inspired from Jehovah God.) The Bible warns us of “misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons” (1Timothy 4:1), so we are cautious!
Take care, my cousin.
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