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nPeace

Veteran Member
Hi @nPeace


1) REGARDING THE INTENTIONAL CHANGES THE JEWISH MASORETICS MADE TO THE BIBLE THEY CREATED IN THE MIDDLE AGES FOR RABBINIC JEWS
Clear said : On the other hand, the Masoretics tell us (in the Masorah) that they intentionally changed certain texts in the bible they created.
Which is then to be considered the “original” text?
The text in it’s “original” form, or the texts they created in the Masoretic?

It is more complicated than to simply claim Christians “know” their bible is correct when the truth is that they “Believe” that their texts are correct. (and it goes without saying that "correct" is a relative term). (post #931)


nPeace replied : “Do you know the method involved?” (post #933)



Yes, the Masoretics describe their rules upon which they changed the text.
However, since you claim the Jehovahs Witnesses are (as you say) “privileged to be well informed by the most studious of Bible scholars, in the world.” Then you should already know the answer to your question.
I'm not referring to the Masoretes.
I'm referring to later comparisons of the manuscripts.

Your question also does not tell us why you believe the text is the most original that can be had when the very people who created the bible for you TELL YOU they made changes to the texts. This goes against logic and rational thinking.
I think you got a little confused there.
I refered to comparing the over 5,000 manuscripts, to get an accurate translation.

2) REGARDING WHETHER CHRISTIANS “KNOW” OR DO THEY “BELIEVE” THEIR TEXTS ARE ACCURATE?
1)nPeace said : “Christians know they have, today, scriptures that are as close to the originals as one can get from copies.” (post #930)



As I pointed out, Christians do not KNOW any such thing.
They may BELIEVE this, but IF they believe this, it is partly because they are unaware of errors and variants and translational problems.

Transmission of ancient narratives is not a 100% proposition and the sacred texts and their translations are, on the level of critical textual discoveries, improving and changing.
(1 John 5:19) . . .We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. . .
We know a lot of things, you don't believe we, know, but I understand why you would not know.

Genesis 1:1 as an example of ignorance of the textual translation

For example, I asked you about what you (and hockeycowboy) would do with the translational dilemma of Genesis 1:1.

Your response was :

“Problem? What's the problem? If you mention it, I could look at it.” (nPeace in post #934)


ANY Hebrew reader who knows nuances of their language will see the problem, while you do not see the problem in Genesis 1:1 (and you claim Jehovahs Witnesses are informed by the “most studious of Bible scholars, in the world”). The evidence for textual ignorance is in your response.

Your response is perfect evidence that most Christians simply do not know the problems with their text but do BELIEVE it is the best they can get from versions of ancient narratives. Their faith is not a bad thing, but it is still FAITH, not KNOWLEDGE. Their faith is Partly right, partly wrong.
It looks more like this to me.
(2 Peter 3:16) . . .some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

3) REGARDING THE CLAIM TO HAVE "PROOF" THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN PRESERVED AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE

nPeace claimed : "We have proof that the Bible has been preserved as remarkably accurate as possible, thus showing divine preservation. (Post #934)


Of course you don’t have “proof” of this.

I think making such claims are unwise since anti-religonists use such silly claims against the biblical text.

Since anti religionists have actual proof (not pretend proof or bragging) the text is not as accurate as possible, they use your same claim as evidence the bible is not divinely preserved.

While I also believe in divine intervention involving texts, It is not the transmission of ancient textual narratives that is the problem but rather the silly claims made by both proponents and antagonists of the text.
4) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS NEW WORLD BIBLE IS THE MOST ACCURATE TRANSLATION

nPeace claimed : "The NWT is the most accurate translation : (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him. (post #934)


Of course the NWT is not “the most accurate translation”.
This is simply another silly bragging point.
You can’t even prove that the phrase “the only-begotten god” should be the phrase to include in your bible.
Or, if you can prove it, you will be the first person in the world to do so.
5) REGARDING ADDING TO AND TAKING AWAY FROM SACRED TEXTS
nPeace asked : “What do you think about translation that have either taken out completely, God's name from the pages of their translation, or are inconsistent in how they treat the divine name?” (post #930)

Clear responded : "I think the prohibition regarding not adding nor taking away (Deut 4:2 and Rev 22:18-19) is important in treating sacred texts.
I think it is wrong to remove the name from sacred texts where we have evidence that it originally appeared and it is wrong to add it where we have no evidence that it appeared. (POST #931)


nPeace responded : “I totally agree with you there. So, what do you think about the NWT treatment of the Divine Name? (post #934)


I answered this question from post #934 in my last post #936 above, under the heading : 3) APPLYING nPEACE RULE OF "SIFTING OUT THE ADDITIONS (Clear post #936)

However, IF the Jehovahs Witnesses REALLY believe the current text is the most original we can get from ancient copies and if they REALLY believe in God’s prohibition Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it…” (a prohibition in Deuteronomy and repeated again in Revelations) then they should NOT have added the name “Jehovah” to the New Testament Text where it never existed.

I understand the desire to honor God and support your beliefs (and I honor anyone who honors God) and I don’t mean to offend you. I like you.
(And I like HockeyCowboy).

BUT, to change the text to try to support your theology while claiming to honor the text and claiming that it is the closest we can get to the copies seems improper, even somewhat hypocritical to me.
6) HOW DOES ONE DECIDE THEIR PERSONAL CANON IS CORRECT AND OTHER CANONS ARE INCORRECT?

Clear asked : "Why is your personal, modern canon correct while the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus canon incorrect?
Why would the modern Eastern Canon be incorrect while your canon is correct? (post #931)


nPeace responded with a cut and past from JW.ORG regarding the rules of their sect for "Determining Canonicity" in post #934

I appreciate your information on why the Jehovahs Witnesses think their canon is correct.

However, this does not tell me why Jehovahs Witnesses think OTHER Christians who feel the same way about their canon were wrong.
CODEX SINAITICUS AND 4TH CENTURY CHRISTIANS AS A SIMPLE EXAMPLE

Why do Jehovahs Witnesses believe the Christians who only had the 4th century canon of Codex Sinaiticus were incorrect to feel the same way about their ancient canon as Jehovahs Witnesses do about their modern canon?


Clear
καιρο ειΣΙ μ
Take care
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @nPeace


THE PROBLEMS CAUSED TO RELIGIONISTS BY ERRONEOUS BRAGGING


1) The claim to have the “most studious of Bible Scholars, in the world”.
nPeace said : “If it's sounds like I am bragging, it's only because we are proud to be a privileged people - a people for God's name, taught by him. nPeace, along with @Hockeycowboy, and over 8,500,000 individuals, are privileged to be well informed by the most studious of Bible scholars, in the world.” (POST #932)

This sort of bragging feels misguided and erroneous on it’s surface.

1) Bias and Ignorance in translation - the Jewish Masorah
I explained in post #936 that the main creator of your New World Translation and his 3 introductory courses in Greek do not make him a world class scholar and it resulted in a text with many errors and inappropriate additions to the text.

Your question tacitly admits these scholars have not informed you regarding the Masoretic changes and the criteria they used in making changes. nPeace asked : “Do you know the method involved?” (post #933)


2) Ignorance of translational problems - Genesis 1:1

You inadvertently admit you (and they?) are not even aware of the problem with the first of all translational dilemmas in Genesis 1:1 though you had time to research it. Since you say these scholars inform you of these issues, I asked “What do your scholars say about the text in Genesis 1:1?”

Your response has been simply to ask me what the problem with the text was.
nPeace asked: “Problem? Again, I ask, what problem? You haven't mentioned any. What problem are you seeing? (post #939)

I DID mentioned there was a problem with translation and have left your response that you are unaware of the problem as obvious evidence that you are NOT aware of differences and variations of texts. Even some of the simple, but important ones.


3) Ignorance of what other religions and scholars have contributed to biblical knowledge

To give other religions and their scholars “credit where credit is due” is proper instead of claiming superiority over them.
There have been world class scholars in the past from many religion systems that have contributed their lives and have illuminated religious knowledge greatly by their sacrifice of time and money long before your sect even existed.



4) The brag that Christians “KNOW” they have the best of all translations that are “as close to the original as one can get” from copies.
nPeace said
: “Christians know they have, today, scriptures that are as close to the originals as one can get from copies.” (post #930)

We’ve already discussed how silly this claim is.

For the biblical translator and biblical linguist, the reverence and worship of their book as a thing of perfection by lay religionists may seem to border on idol worship. Translators who create the bibles are often uncomfortable with the “deification” of their creation (which they know has errors).

For example, During the question-answer period of a BAR meeting at the smithsonian institution in washington (oct 27, 1990), James Sanders (who served on the committee that had just put out the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible (NRSV) at that time spoke of how one could break the news to a relatively ignorant but good hearted group of christians, the “relativity” of translations so they could understand that the bible is a product of the TRANSLATOR(S), and is simply their best guess as to what the words meant.

James Sanders said : “I have dreamt of a Bible with translations of both versions into english. I wonder if lay folk would accept a Bible where there are doublets of this sort. .... There might be one translation on the top half of the page and the other on the bottom half of the page. I think that it is time for us to stop fooling the people, making them think that there is just one Bible and that our bible committee got closer to it than their committee did.”

There is a concern among translators as to how much truth about translation the “lay christian” can “handle”.

What happens if the translator meets the “biblical perfectionist” in person and says : "Hi. I am the creator of the bible you think is perfect. My Greek isn’t perfect and I didn’t have a lot of good manuscripts to compare so I think I did a fair job, but I know that I translated a few passages incorrectly. Still, it’s the best I could do, given my limitations.What would a lay christian who is a biblical perfectionist DO with this sort of revelation? What happens when a flat earth suddenly is declared to be made round? Doug Moo, the leader of the NIV team has expressed similar sentiments regarding "lay people" reading the bible his team created.

James Sanders is not merely a translator on the committee producing the NRSV, but he was
THE one called in to unroll Cave 11 Psalm Scroll; he edited it and he published it. He was president of the Society of Biblical Literature (which had a membership thousands of biblical scholars).

James said during this session regarding his own biblical translation (which many on this forum may use as their bible) : Must we continue to pretend that only our group is right denominationally and others are not right, and it is just too bad about others? After all, the Revised English Bible and the NRSV have the Hebrew Ester in the so-called canonical section and the full Greek Ester – all of it in its full integrity – in the Apocrypha....The Hebrew text is still in the process of standardization, but I wonder if it would not be proper for there to be an effort afoot to provide our people with the differences all along. I have been told by some that that would just destroy the Bible because lay folk still want to think of the Bible as somehow “inerrant.” The truth of the matter is that all biblical passages have been community property almost from the first repetition. It may well be that if there should ever be the possibility of discussing the text of Isaiah with Isaiah, he might very well say, “But I did not say that.” It has nonetheless become community Isaiah property and he might just have to live with it.”.

James, a translator who “creates” scripture is describing the fact that though some of the biblical text is incorrect, and the translators know it is incorrect, still, the community of Christians have in their mind that what is written IS what Isaiah actually said
and that the Prophet Isaiah will just have to live with it since individuals cannot cope with any corrections.



6) The brag that one can simply identify improper “additions” to the sacred text by their lack of appearance in other texts.
nPeace said
: “Sifting out the additions, is easy.
This lengthy reading is not in any other known Bible text...” (post #932)


The example of applying this rule to changes the Jehovahs Witnesses made to the New Testament Text

As was demonstrated in post #936, applying this rule to the New World Translation shows that hundreds of improper additions of the word “Jehovah” appears in the Jehovahs Witness New Testament since the word is added to a text without being in any known ancient Greek manuscript of 1st through 3rd order.

Instead of offering a single ancient New Testament manuscript in response to this criticism, you simply offered readers an Old Testament text referring to Jehovah.

You created the claim. I merely applied it fairly to your Bible Text to prove hundreds of improper additions exist in the New World Translation.



7) The brag that one can confirm the current text is transmitted with “extraordinary accuracy” by a comparison with the dead sea Scrolls.

nPeace said
: “The comparison showed that the text of the Hebrew Bible has been transmitted with extraordinary accuracy” (post #930)

An actual comparison with the Dead Sea Scrolls showed no such thing.
And in fact, it demonstrated important differences in the texts.

Post #936 demonstrated that this is not correct.
I gave the example of a single verse (1 Samuel 11:1) that has a Seventy (70) word difference JUST in a single verse as well as other differences in verses 11, 13, 18, 22, 23 and 24 in JUST the first chapter of 1 Samuel.



8) The brag that a “faithful” slave “is aware of differences and variations in biblical texts

nPeace said
: “It's a fact the the faithful and discrete slave is aware of differences and variations.”

A “fact”.
Really?

You have already (inadvertently) admitted you (and they?) are not even aware of the problem with the first of all translational dilemmas in Genesis 1:1 though you had time to research it.

Your response has been simply to ask me what the problem with the text was.
nPeace asked: “Problem? Again, I ask, what problem? You haven't mentioned any. What problem are you seeing? (post #939)

I HAVE mentioned there was a problem and readers have seen your responses that you’re unaware of this problem as evidence that you are NOT aware of differences and variations of texts. Even some of the simple, but important ones. Anyone who can read the nuances of Hebrew are aware of this translational problem, yet you who claimed to be informed by great scholars are not. Point made.

This is why I said that the typical Christian and Jew who read their texts are not (typically) aware of changes to, problems with, and variations in, the text in their bibles.

The typical Christians' world is different than that of the historian and they need not be expected to know such historical nuances.
Yet they may have extraordinary and honorable faith and may live lives in accordance with their own understanding and beliefs.
This is honorable.



Clear
εισ εισι μ εν καινε
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
@Clear I'm sorry that this
nPeace, along with @Hockeycowboy, and over 8,500,000 individuals, are privileged to be well informed by the the most studious of Bible scholars, in the world.
got you all steamed, so that your emotions kicked in, causing to to become personal
claiming that it is the closest we can get to the copies seems improper, even somewhat hypocritical to me.

and now the only thing you can see is "brag".

The Pharisees were steamed at Jesus for what he said, so I totally understand.
So while you did say "and I don’t mean to offend you.", maybe you didn't mean to, but your words come across as though you did mean to offend, but what you might not have realized, is the high possibility of being manipulated, or used to say these things. The same happened to Peter, so it's understandable. (Matthew 16:22, 23)
So that the claim "I don’t mean to offend you.", is contradicted by your tone, your focus on the word "brag", although I did not say I was bragging, but rather in case it sounds that way, and your intent on lowering the Jehovah's Witnesses, to elevate your scholarly credentials.

I don't mean to offend you, but felt you needed to understand this.
Not dwelling on that though... Although it would be nice if you could get that word "brag" out of your head, since the conversation would be less emotional, and less focused on trying to elevate oneself, in my opinion.


Let me first of all, repeat what I said, so as to make it clear.
The wise and intellectual - that includes Biblical Scholars who think they are so "incredibly gifted", are in God's eyes, not wise at all
Their so-called superior understanding of God's word, is foolishness.


That's God's view, Clear. I didn't make it up. So don't get angry at me and Jehovah's Witnesses. If anything, take it up with God.
I hold God's view, however.

(Matthew 11:25, 26) 25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. 26 Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.

(1 Corinthians 3:19, 20) 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.. . .

So, there is no way that the "Catholic, Protestant and Jewish Scholars that are incredibly gifted" could "have contributed much, much, MUCH, more to biblical knowledge than" those little children Jehovah has revealed his wisdom and understanding.

If you think these "incredibly gifted" "Catholic, Protestant and Jewish Scholars", are the children God reveals true wisdom to, then you would have to agree that they do not think they are wise in this system of things, but rather fools - uneducated fools - the things looked down upon. 1 Corinthians 3:18; Acts 4:13; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
That's how Jehovah's Witnesses are viewed.

To be truly wiser than, all the wise, in this system of things, one needs to love God's word, and recognize it as such. Only then does Jehovah grant wisdom and understanding.
(Psalm 119:97-99) 97 How I do love your law! I ponder over it all day long. 98 Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, Because it is with me forever. 99I have more insight than all my teachers, Because I ponder over your reminders.

Otherwise, it hidden.


That being said, I have already addressed the fact the use of the Divine Name - Jehovah, in the Greek text, is not an addition, but a correcting of obvious changes from the original.
It is obvious that a direct quoting from the Hebrew texts, where the Divine Name is found, would contain the Divine name, instead of the inserted title "Lord", or "Lord God".
For example
When Jesus quoted the Old Testament or read from it, he used the divine name. (Deuteronomy 6:13, 16; 8:3; Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 61:1, 2; Matthew 4:4, 7, 10; 22:44; Luke 4:16-21) In the days of Jesus and his disciples, the Tetragrammaton appeared in copies of the Hebrew text of what is often called the Old Testament, as it still does today.

Where a message is given by a messenger - an angel of God, the one represented is often mentioned by name as in Jehovah's angel. Never, an angel of the Lord.
nwtsty C3 Verses Where the Divine Name Does Not Appear as Part of Direct or Indirect Quotations in the Book of Matthew
MATTHEW 1:20 “Jehovah’s angel”
REASON(S): Available Greek manuscripts use the term Kyʹri·os (Lord) here, but there are good reasons for using the divine name in the main text. In the Christian Greek Scriptures, Kyʹri·os can refer to Jehovah God or to Jesus Christ, depending on the context. Here the context indicates that the one referred to is God. The expression “Jehovah’s angel” occurs many times in Hebrew in the “Old Testament,” starting at Genesis 16:7. When “Jehovah’s angel” occurs in early copies of the Greek Septuagint, a translation of the “Old Testament,” the Greek word agʹge·los (angel; messenger) is followed by the divine name written with Hebrew characters. That is how this expression is handled at Zechariah 3:5, 6 in a copy of the Greek Septuagint found in Nahal Hever, Israel, which some scholars have dated between 50 B.C.E. and 50 C.E. It is noteworthy that when later copies of the Greek Septuagint replaced the divine name with Kyʹri·os in this and many other verses, the definite article was not included before Kyʹri·os, where it would be expected according to standard grammatical usage, making Kyʹri·os tantamount to a proper name. So the Hebrew Scripture background and the unexpected absence of the definite article indicate that Kyʹri·os is here used as a substitute for the divine name, and therefore, the name Jehovah is used in the main text.
SUPPORT:
...
• The Restored New Testament, by Willis Barnstone, 2009, states in a footnote on the expression “an angel of the Lord”: “From the Greek . . . (angelos kyriou), from the Hebrew . . . (malakh yahweh), . . . A literal rendering would be Yahweh’s malakh or ‘messenger.’” In the main text of Matthew 28:2, this translation reads: “An angel of Yahweh.”

Also, see Listing of Bible translations and reference works that have used some form of the divine name (or some other way of indicating that the divine name is referred to) in what is commonly called the New Testament


Regarding "the problem" with Genesis 1:1, the problem does not exist, except in the minds of Biblical scholars who have somehow managed to convince themselves - or were convinced by someone elses (2 Corinthians 4:4), that their interpretations, and translations, are scripture.
That's sad, but does highlight the fact that these ones will never gain any scriptural wisdom, but their reasoning's will always remain futile.
(Job 5:13) He catches the wise in their own cunning, So that the plans of the shrewd are thwarted.
(1 Corinthians 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.”
(1 Corinthians 3:20) . . .And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.”

I think I covered everything.
P.S.
Actually, there is one thing I should mention @Clear.
Anything the faithful slave does not address, is something not worth giving any attention to. Like a useless argument.
(2 Timothy 2:23-26) 23 Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. 24 For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO


Hi @nPeace

nPeace, Please be at peace regarding my posts.

I'm not particularly emotional about religion and don't get angry, but there are a few issues that I want to be perfectly clear about.
This is probably why you thought I was angry about the bragging that your "scholars" were superior in any way to scholars produced by protestants, Catholics, and others.


1) Regarding the damage of making fantastic, incredible and erroneous claims

@nPeace, I truly believe that you mean well and are simply trying to be a good and effective Witness for Jehovah. This is NOT a bad thing but instead it is quite honorable.

However, you are starting to make claims that critics of christianity (and J.W.s) will use as examples as to why Christian claims (and J.W. Claims) are not to be trusted.

Despite this honorable motive, I think that it does more damage to the Christian aim if individuals are seen as willing to “stretch the truth” or simply pass on bad information in order to support their theology.

For example, some Christians make claims such as inerrancy and perfection in texts (similar to the claim that what we have are the best that can be had, or the claim that Christians typically know of variations and errors in their texts, etc). I think that making such erroneous claims is counterproductive in many ways.

For example, an increasing numbers of both Christians and non-Christians are aware of imperfections and errancy in biblical texts. To then have Christians make claims that contradict a wall of firm historical facts will associate Christianity with dishonesty and incredulity in the eyes of individuals who know the claims are incorrect..

I think such claims could have been made in earlier ages of ignorance when data was not so readily available. But such a claim cannot survive in an age where information is so readily available.

The reason I think that deceptions and gross exaggerations is so harmful is that it decreases credibility rather than enhancing trust in Christians if they are willing to engage in dubious claims in a misguided attempt to improve the perceived status of their beliefs.

Once Christians engage in the spread of obvious error, then they will be seen as less relevant in one’s personal pursuit of religious truth.

IF Christians lose credibility and relevance, then agnostics and other investigators of religion may turn elsewhere for religious meaning and for religious truth and for credibility in personal witnesses.

I know that Christians who claim inerrancy are NOT trying to damage Christianity, but nonetheless, I think making erroneous claims in the face of better and obvious data causes Christianity harm.

I apologize if my posts seemed like I was being harder on you than was needed to show errors.



2) APPLYING nPEACES’ RULE OF "SIFTING OUT THE ADDITIONS" - WHEN TEXT DOESN’T APPEAR IN OTHER KNOWN BIBLICAL TEXT
nPeace said : “Sifting out the additions, is easy.

This lengthy reading is not in any other known Bible text...” (post #932)

Clear replied :

Applying this rule to the Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses created. - "improper additions are revealed by absence in other texts "-

Lets apply this rule to the Jehovahs Witness Bible as an example :


Matthew 1:20 in The Jehovahs Witness Bible reads “But after he had thought these things over, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a dream,…”

However, there is not a single Greek text that supports the addition of the name Jehovah out of THOUSANDS of important ancient greek manuscripts of matthew that exist and it is a departure from this only known text.
Therefore it is an improper addition to the translation.

Matthew 1:22 in the Jehovahs Witness Bible reads
: “All of this actually came about to fulfill what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet..."

Again, there is not a single ancient Greek text of first or second order that supports the addition of the name Jehovah out of THOUSANDS that exist and it is a departure from the only known text.
Therefore it is an improper addition to the translation.

There are hundreds of similar improper additions and changes made by the Jehovahs Witnesses” to the New Testament text that are not supported by any known Greek text. ALL of these changes to the text are improper additions and subtractions and translational changes.

The command from God is clear :
“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut 4:2)

It makes no sense to say you are “proud” of these individuals when they are changing the sacred texts to support their religious bias.
The sacred texts should drive religious conclusions rather than religious conclusions changing the text.


nPeace responded :That being said, I have already addressed the fact the use of the Divine Name - Jehovah, in the Greek text, is not an addition, but a correcting of obvious changes from the original. (post #943)



nPeace, this is yet simply another claim that does not stand up to the actual New Testament text. You are NOT "correcting changes" to the New Testament source text in my examples.

NO Greek exists for these examples to show a change was made or that the greek source is incorrect in these examples.

In the absence of justification, Improperly adding or changing the New Testament text to say something other than the text actually said IS “an addition” and it is silly to claim it is a “correcting of” the text. There is simply NO evidence that Matthew 1:20 and 1:22 ever said “Jehovah” instead of “Lord” (κυριος).

The same is true of hundred of other places the creators of your bible changed the text without any supporting evidence from any appropriate ancient New Testament Greek manuscript. I am not criticizing your motive, but rather pointing out the impropriety of inappropriately changing the text to support a theology..

1) If you remember, it was YOU that claimed that one could tell additions to the text from proper text by their absence from any other known Bible Text.
nPeace said : “Sifting out the additions, is easy.

This lengthy reading is not in any other known Bible text...” (post #932)

I simply applied your claim to your own New Testament text.



2) There ARE no originals, nor copies, nor copies of copies of copies of New Testament Text that use “Jehovah” in my examples and in hundreds of other examples from the New Testament Greek manuscripts.

Therefore, according to your claim, these additions made by the Jehovahs Witnesses are to be “sifted” out as improper “additions” just as you “sifted out” Dead Sea Scroll text.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

3) Regarding the strange claim that because the name Jehovah exists in Old Testament Texts, it should be added to the New Testament Texts where it never existed
nPeace said : It is obvious that a direct quoting from the Hebrew texts, where the Divine Name is found, would contain the Divine name, instead of the inserted title "Lord", or "Lord God". (Post #943)


It is NOT obvious that this claim is correct.

Firstly, Matthew 1:20 and Matthew 1:22 are NOT "quoting from the Hebrew texts where the Divine Name is found".

Secondly, IF the New Testament writers of the source texts had wanted to use the word “Jehovah”, in their narratives, they could have, but they don’t. NONE of the narratives in the examples of New Testament source text we are speaking of actually USE “Jehovah”.

Because the name Jehovah is not in any of these examples an accurate TRANSLATION should not change the text to read differently that what it actually says.

A COMMENTARY is allowed to change the wording to explain what the text means to the commentator (or to a representative group).
A TRANSLATION of a specific and common word does not do this.

Other Christians theologies that connect Jesus to Jehovah have no need to change this specific text since it coheres with their theology perfectly well without changing the text. Their theology allows them to understand why the apostles would use “Lord” instead of “Jehovah” in such cases.

I am not arguing who is correct or incorrect, but simply saying that to remove their evidence for their theology only to add your evidence for your theology is improper. When speaking of creating a TRANSLATION of an ancient text, we are to allow its texts to remain as unchanged as possible. When speaking of COMMENTARY on a text, then such rules do not apply.

While I fully understand the desire to dignify and honor the name “Jehovah”, it is clear that God has prohibited changing sacred text by adding to or taking away from what it written in sacred text.



3a) An example of USING an error in translation by Willis Barnstone to support an error in translation

nPeaced referred to : “The Restored New Testament, by Willis Barnstone, 2009, states in a footnote on the expression “an angel of the Lord”: “From the Greek . . . (angelos kyriou), from the Hebrew . . . (malakh yahweh), . . . A literal rendering would be Yahweh’s malakh or ‘messenger.’” In the main text of Matthew 28:2, this translation reads: “An angel of Yahweh.” (Post #943)


I think I may have seen this specific cut and paste from the JW.ORG site. It is another example of poor scholarship on the part of your "scholars".

This example is another obvious example of both improper translation as well as an example of very poor scholarship of your “scholars” for not noticing the obvious error in translation.

If you had a bit of Greek and Hebrew understanding the discrepancy would be obvious to you (and them).

ANY Hebrew/Greek reader on this forum will immediately see that Kyrios from “Angelos Kyiou” is NOT a translation of “Yahweh” (in “malakh Yahweh).

IS THERE ANY GREEK READER ON THE FORUM THAT WANTS TO ARGUE ΚΥΡΙΟΣ IS A PROPER TRANSLATION FOR "JEHOVAH"?
ANYONE?


Even “Lord” in Hebrew can be “Adon” (heb: אֲדוֹן) for example, but the word is NOT “Yahweh”. The word "LORD" can refer to many things, even as a contextual reference to God IF the context supports it. But a TRANSLATION of the word "Adon" OR "Kyrios" does not directly translate to "Jehovah".

I would encourage readers to simply ask google how to say “Lord” (the Greek Kurios) in Hebrew. See if it comes up with “Jehovah”.

You can do this as well nPeace to see what the word actually means.



4) TRANSLATION AT THE MERCY OF THEOLOGY
nPeace claimed : “MATTHEW 1:20 “Jehovah’s angel”
REASON(S): Available Greek manuscripts use the term Kyʹri·os (Lord) here, but there are good reasons for using the divine name in the main text. (Post #943)


4a No Greek manuscript uses "Jehovah" for "Lord" in these examples from Matthew 1:20 and Matthew 1:22.
Read what you wrote in your first sentence
: “Available Greek manuscripts use the term Kyrios (Lord) here(Post #943)”

This simple admission applies to ALL of the available ancient Greek witnesses in my example. ALL use “Kyrios” and NONE use “Jehovah”.

And, as any Greek reader knows, ”Kyrios” (Lord) does NOT translate as “Jehovah”.



4b) The reasons for translating the text correctly outweigh the reasons for mistranslating the text

You then claim there are good reasonsfor using the divine name in the main text.” (nPeace from Post #943)”

However, the reasons are not based on proper principles of translation, but rather they seem to be based on supporting a theology.

I understand why the Jehovahs Witnesses want the text to say certain things, BUT, to make improper changes to the text to support your theology is one of the things God prohibits.

And I think there are even BETTER reasons underlying why God prohibits improper changes to the text that outweigh your reasons to change the text.



5) Denial as a mechanism to deal with ignorance

Clear asked : ““What do your scholars say about the text in Genesis 1:1?””

nPeace asked: “Problem? Again, I ask, what problem? You haven't mentioned any. What problem are you seeing? (post #939)

nPeace said : “Regarding "the problem" with Genesis 1:1, the problem does not exist, except in the minds of Biblical scholars…” (post #943)

To simply close your eyes to and pretend a translational dilemma "doesn’t exist" because you are unaware of it seems a poor way to deal with it.

Why not simply admit that one is unaware of the problem?

All I wanted to demonstrate (by using you) was to demonstrate my claim that that the normal “non-historian” “Sunday school Christian” (or Jew or Muslim) simply do not realize the mistakes and variations in the text and their theological importance.

Your example of simply denying they exist both demonstrates my point and it doesn’t solve the dilemma at all.



6) Why is your 66 book Canon correct but the 4th Century Sinaiticus canon incorrect?

Your cut and paste from the JW.ORG explained your organizations’ criteria for accepting your canon but it doesn’t tell us why 4th c.e. Sinaiticus reading Christians with their different canon are wrong.

Can you clear up WHY you think their specific canon is incorrect?


In any case nPeace, I honestly hope your spiritual journey is enlightening and progressive and wonderful.



Clear
μνει εισ καιρο εισι μ
 
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We Never Know

No Slack
Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...
Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us
  • the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
  • the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
  • the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?
"Are the dead alive somewhere"

If they are alive, then they aren't dead.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Clear , and @nPeace, I’ve read some of this conversation between the two of you, and I’d like to ask a question & make this point:

Regarding followers of Christ, who would you rather believe:

Those who claim to follow Christ and are striving to love their brothers, despite world pressure, or those who claim to follow Christ and are willing to kill their brothers, joining in with the world?

It’s as simple as that. According to Jesus at John 13:35; Matthew 7:16,20,21-23.

Every other spiritual concept, should be judged based on the above standard.

nPeace, I’m pretty sure that you see it & will agree. Clear, do you see that?

Occam’s Razor, maybe?

Another question:

Since understanding truth only comes from Jesus’ Father Jehovah (Luke 10:21), how important is it, do you think, to obey His Son?

Trying hard to do that, results in Jehovah’s blessings, such as unity (1 Corinthians 1:10), and accurate understanding.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@Clear Thank you very much for having this conversation with me.
I only have one point to make, since I have covered everything you said, and there is no need to repeat.

Jesus said things that were not liked, not accepted, not understood, not appreciated. Why?
Jesus said this...
Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. (John 8:43)

How would that strike you, if Jesus said those words to you?
What if he followed them up with the words in the next verse...
44  You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie

...and the next...
45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me.

...and the next...
46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me?

....and caps it off with this...
47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

Likely, you'd be shocked. Am I right?

I want to draw your attention to something, and I want you to think of Jesus' words, as you look at it. It's very important that you do.

Clear said:
Firstly, Matthew 1:20 and Matthew 1:22 are NOT "quoting from the Hebrew texts where the Divine Name is found".
Secondly,u.

Think about the words in color...
Okay?

Here is the point.
I did not say Matthew 1:20 and Matthew 1:22 are quoting from the Hebrew text.
So did Clear listen to what I said? No. Did Clear understand what I said? No. You read the words, but did not listen.
Remember Jesus' words...
Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word.
The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.


On Matthew 1:20, I quoted this..
Available Greek manuscripts use the term Kyʹri·os (Lord) here, but there are good reasons for using the divine name in the main text. In the Christian Greek Scriptures, Kyʹri·os can refer to Jehovah God or to Jesus Christ, depending on the context. Here the context indicates that the one referred to is God. The expression “Jehovah’s angel” occurs many times in Hebrew in the “Old Testament,” starting at Genesis 16:7. When “Jehovah’s angel” occurs in early copies of the Greek Septuagint, a translation of the “Old Testament,” the Greek word agʹge·los (angel; messenger) is followed by the divine name written with Hebrew characters. That is how this expression is handled at Zechariah 3:5, 6 in a copy of the Greek Septuagint found in Nahal Hever, Israel, which some scholars have dated between 50 B.C.E. and 50 C.E. It is noteworthy that when later copies of the Greek Septuagint replaced the divine name with Kyʹri·os in this and many other verses, the definite article was not included before Kyʹri·os, where it would be expected according to standard grammatical usage, making Kyʹri·os tantamount to a proper name. So the Hebrew Scripture background and the unexpected absence of the definite article indicate that Kyʹri·os is here used as a substitute for the divine name, and therefore, the name Jehovah is used in the main text.
Did Clear read that... Did Clear listen? I don't get that impression. However, if Clear did read it, then clearly, Clear did not listen with understanding.

How do I know?
Clear knows that we aren't using the originals, but Greek manuscripts of the “New Testament” that were made from about 200 C.E. onward - long after the originals were composed, and hopefully, Clear is aware that, sometime during the second or early third century C.E., a practice had developed where those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Divine Name with a title such as Lord or God or copied from manuscripts where this had already been done.

Yet, Clear makes a statement like this...
IF the New Testament writers of the source texts had wanted to use the word “Jehovah”, in their narratives, they could have, but they don’t. NONE of the narratives in the examples of New Testament source text we are speaking of actually USE “Jehovah”

If you are listening Clear, why would you even think something like that, in the first place?
Remember Jesus' words...
Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word.
The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.


This is a very pertinent point, and sheds light on the entire discussion.
What or whom are you listening to? That, evidently, is not a question you can answer.

This is the only point I can add to what I have said.
Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word.
The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @nPeace

So.... I point out the many erroneous historical claims you made in my two posts #944 and #945 and your response in post #949 is that I am "not listening to Jesus"?

Got it...

In any case, I truly hope your life is insightful and your spiritual journey wonderful.


Clear
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Hi @nPeace

So.... I point out the many erroneous historical claims you made in my two posts #944 and #945 and your response in post #949 is that I am "not listening to Jesus"?

Got it...
Sad to say, Clear, you haven't gotten it.
I pointed out that you aren't listening to me.
Either that, or you just cannot understand... Or both.
In either case, you didn't realize that what you "pointed out" were refuted, so that you only are imagining you pointed out something, because you either are not listening to the refutations, or don't understand.
I tried to explain the reasons, but I'm not sure you got that either.

In any case, I truly hope your life is insightful and your spiritual journey wonderful.

Clear
Thank you.
I appreciate and accept your kind gesture.
The hope you are referring to, is a desire. Like when we desire our children return home safely. Or, gain a scholarship. Our hopes though, are really fleeting - they have very little value, if any, unless our hope is in Jehovah, Ecclesiastes 12:8

Regarding insight, the Bible says at Daniel 12:3 . . .“And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever.
So, we are guaranteed an insightful and wonderful journey, when we are under the direction of Jesus Christ, who uses the faithful and discrete slave to feed his sheep by means of God's word - the Bible. Matthew 24:45

Take care Clear.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
What? That the “dead are sleeping”? It’s at John 11:11-14.
Jesus likened death to sleep… how do you see it?



Where?
I believe that is one instance not a general statement. It is not logical to reason from one instance to a general occurrence. Besides that Jesus also says there is reincarnation and Heaven.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
"Are the dead alive somewhere"

If they are alive, then they aren't dead.
I believe "by alive" the concept is not physical life but spiritual life. That is why the confusion over Jesus. He did not die because He left the body while it was still alive and it was only the body that died later.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1)REGARDING THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE THAT THE DEAD WOULD RESURRECT : THEIR SPIRITS ALONG WITH THEIR BODIES.


nPeace asked : “Why do persons believe dead bodies are raised up? Or rather, why do you believe that?” (post #927)

Clear responded : “1) THE RESURRECTION DOESN'T SEEM TO SIMPLY BE A RISING AGAIN OF THE "ORIGINAL" MOLECULES OF THE ORIGINAL BODY IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE, BUT INSTEAD, THE IMMORTAL RESURRECTED BODY SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT.

My current historical model is that think the ancient Judeo-Christian literature is not describing the original molecules and atoms of an original “dead body” of individuals being reconstructed in the resurrection.

But instead, as with the creation of Adams' body out of "dust" and as with Jesus’ resurrection, it is “types and images” that are being used to describe new and somehow different bodies in the resurrection.

If the resurrected bodies are immortal, then they must be different.

I think the reason the ancient Judeo-Christians believed in resurrection is that they saw in their teaching and texts the promise of a resurrection (a rising again “re” – “surrection”).

I think that the early Judeo-Christians and their teaching are the most correct because I have not seen (so far) any other interpretations and doctrines that, to me, seem as rational and as logical as their interpretations and teachings. (post #929)



Muffled said : “I believe it for two reasons: 1. God says so. 2. God is all powerful and can restore a body as easily as create one.” (post 954)



Hi @Muffled

I believe your faith in this specific point is perfectly correct that this was the original promise of God and the teaching in early Judeo-Christianity. Certainly their literature describes it as their spirit being placed into their original bodies.

My response to nPeace was meant to inform the specific point that resurrection of bodies that had decomposed and whose original molecules had been absorbed by other life such as plants and animals need not be what was meant by the resurrection of the dead. There is not need for "original" atoms and "original" molecules to make up the bodies of the resurrected dead if those original molecules are now inside of and being used by other animals and plants

I agree with you that the earliest teaching was that the persons spirit would be placed back into their body. However, IF the body they are given in the resurrection is to be immortal, then regardless of appearance, there must be some changes made to that resurrected body.

So, I think you are correct, I was trying to deal with nuances of the resurrection and my tentative model.





Muffled said : “I believe "by alive" the concept is not physical life but spiritual life. That is why the confusion over Jesus. He did not die because He left the body while it was still alive and it was only the body that died later. (post #955)

Again, I think you are perfectly correct in describing the historical belief of early Judeo-Christianity.

Certainly the early literature describes Jesus’ descent as a spirit into the world of spirits. The 40 day literature (the narratives describing Jesus’ teaching to the disciples during the 40 days he spent with them after his resurrection) narratives describe the resurrected Jesus’ himself telling the disciples of what he was doing as a spirit during the three days when his body lay in the tomb while he was fully cognizant as a spirit and was still accomplishing various tasks related to the atonement for mankind.

In posts #916 and#917 I gave examples of early descriptions from early Christian literature as well as one example from the gospel of nicodemus where the two sons of Simeon are resurrected with Christ as per the gospel of Matthew Narrative that witnesses that at the time of Jesus' resurrection "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised." (matthew 27:52) The sons of Simeon were among those raised from the dead and the story is their description of the decensus of Jesus as spirit into that world of spirits to fulfill his promise of resurrection to Adam and the patriarchs and others.

Another example from an ancient decensus narrative is from The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)



Kudos for you for having this historical connection with early Christianity.

Clear
 
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cataway

Well-Known Member
I'm just a bit confused about how some phrase is being used. raised up , as in raised up from the grave or the odd one , raised up to be taken to heaven ?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I believe that is one instance not a general statement.
Oh, so Lazarus died a different death than others?

No, he died just like everyone else dies; like the animals die. (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20) The only difference is , unlike animals, humans will have a resurrection, during the “last day.” - John 6:44

God was clear to Adam about what will happen when he died: Genesis 3:19. Same with all humans (Psalms 146:3,4)…. Until the resurrection comes. - Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29
Besides that Jesus also says there is reincarnation and Heaven.
Show me the “reincarnation” concept in the Bible, please.
Now, the Bible teaches a resurrection from the dead. Is that what you mean?

Really, do you know what “reinCARNATE” means? To appear in new flesh. ‘CARNate’ has to do with “flesh”…. no “flesh” goes to Heaven, that’s for those in the spirit realm.
 
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