nPeace
Veteran Member
I'm not referring to the Masoretes.Hi @nPeace
1) REGARDING THE INTENTIONAL CHANGES THE JEWISH MASORETICS MADE TO THE BIBLE THEY CREATED IN THE MIDDLE AGES FOR RABBINIC JEWS
Clear said : On the other hand, the Masoretics tell us (in the Masorah) that they intentionally changed certain texts in the bible they created.
Which is then to be considered the “original” text?
The text in it’s “original” form, or the texts they created in the Masoretic?
It is more complicated than to simply claim Christians “know” their bible is correct when the truth is that they “Believe” that their texts are correct. (and it goes without saying that "correct" is a relative term). (post #931)
nPeace replied : “Do you know the method involved?” (post #933)
Yes, the Masoretics describe their rules upon which they changed the text.
However, since you claim the Jehovahs Witnesses are (as you say) “privileged to be well informed by the most studious of Bible scholars, in the world.” Then you should already know the answer to your question.
I'm referring to later comparisons of the manuscripts.
I think you got a little confused there.Your question also does not tell us why you believe the text is the most original that can be had when the very people who created the bible for you TELL YOU they made changes to the texts. This goes against logic and rational thinking.
I refered to comparing the over 5,000 manuscripts, to get an accurate translation.
(1 John 5:19) . . .We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. . .2) REGARDING WHETHER CHRISTIANS “KNOW” OR DO THEY “BELIEVE” THEIR TEXTS ARE ACCURATE?
1)nPeace said : “Christians know they have, today, scriptures that are as close to the originals as one can get from copies.” (post #930)
As I pointed out, Christians do not KNOW any such thing.
They may BELIEVE this, but IF they believe this, it is partly because they are unaware of errors and variants and translational problems.
Transmission of ancient narratives is not a 100% proposition and the sacred texts and their translations are, on the level of critical textual discoveries, improving and changing.
We know a lot of things, you don't believe we, know, but I understand why you would not know.
It looks more like this to me.Genesis 1:1 as an example of ignorance of the textual translation
For example, I asked you about what you (and hockeycowboy) would do with the translational dilemma of Genesis 1:1.
Your response was :
“Problem? What's the problem? If you mention it, I could look at it.” (nPeace in post #934)
ANY Hebrew reader who knows nuances of their language will see the problem, while you do not see the problem in Genesis 1:1 (and you claim Jehovahs Witnesses are informed by the “most studious of Bible scholars, in the world”). The evidence for textual ignorance is in your response.
Your response is perfect evidence that most Christians simply do not know the problems with their text but do BELIEVE it is the best they can get from versions of ancient narratives. Their faith is not a bad thing, but it is still FAITH, not KNOWLEDGE. Their faith is Partly right, partly wrong.
(2 Peter 3:16) . . .some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
3) REGARDING THE CLAIM TO HAVE "PROOF" THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN PRESERVED AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE
nPeace claimed : "We have proof that the Bible has been preserved as remarkably accurate as possible, thus showing divine preservation. (Post #934)
Of course you don’t have “proof” of this.
I think making such claims are unwise since anti-religonists use such silly claims against the biblical text.
Since anti religionists have actual proof (not pretend proof or bragging) the text is not as accurate as possible, they use your same claim as evidence the bible is not divinely preserved.
While I also believe in divine intervention involving texts, It is not the transmission of ancient textual narratives that is the problem but rather the silly claims made by both proponents and antagonists of the text.
4) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS NEW WORLD BIBLE IS THE MOST ACCURATE TRANSLATION
nPeace claimed : "The NWT is the most accurate translation : (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him. (post #934)
Of course the NWT is not “the most accurate translation”.
This is simply another silly bragging point.
You can’t even prove that the phrase “the only-begotten god” should be the phrase to include in your bible.
Or, if you can prove it, you will be the first person in the world to do so.
5) REGARDING ADDING TO AND TAKING AWAY FROM SACRED TEXTS
nPeace asked : “What do you think about translation that have either taken out completely, God's name from the pages of their translation, or are inconsistent in how they treat the divine name?” (post #930)
Clear responded : "I think the prohibition regarding not adding nor taking away (Deut 4:2 and Rev 22:18-19) is important in treating sacred texts.
I think it is wrong to remove the name from sacred texts where we have evidence that it originally appeared and it is wrong to add it where we have no evidence that it appeared. (POST #931)
nPeace responded : “I totally agree with you there. So, what do you think about the NWT treatment of the Divine Name? (post #934)
I answered this question from post #934 in my last post #936 above, under the heading : 3) APPLYING nPEACE RULE OF "SIFTING OUT THE ADDITIONS (Clear post #936)
However, IF the Jehovahs Witnesses REALLY believe the current text is the most original we can get from ancient copies and if they REALLY believe in God’s prohibition Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it…” (a prohibition in Deuteronomy and repeated again in Revelations) then they should NOT have added the name “Jehovah” to the New Testament Text where it never existed.
I understand the desire to honor God and support your beliefs (and I honor anyone who honors God) and I don’t mean to offend you. I like you.
(And I like HockeyCowboy).
BUT, to change the text to try to support your theology while claiming to honor the text and claiming that it is the closest we can get to the copies seems improper, even somewhat hypocritical to me.
6) HOW DOES ONE DECIDE THEIR PERSONAL CANON IS CORRECT AND OTHER CANONS ARE INCORRECT?
Clear asked : "Why is your personal, modern canon correct while the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus canon incorrect?
Why would the modern Eastern Canon be incorrect while your canon is correct? (post #931)
nPeace responded with a cut and past from JW.ORG regarding the rules of their sect for "Determining Canonicity" in post #934
I appreciate your information on why the Jehovahs Witnesses think their canon is correct.
However, this does not tell me why Jehovahs Witnesses think OTHER Christians who feel the same way about their canon were wrong.
Take careCODEX SINAITICUS AND 4TH CENTURY CHRISTIANS AS A SIMPLE EXAMPLE
Why do Jehovahs Witnesses believe the Christians who only had the 4th century canon of Codex Sinaiticus were incorrect to feel the same way about their ancient canon as Jehovahs Witnesses do about their modern canon?
Clear
καιρο ειΣΙ μ