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Where are the Gold Plates?
- Thread starter KingM
- Start date
KingM
Member
How about that big warehouse in Indiana Jones, right next to the Arc of the Covenant?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And the Holy Grail, and the Cross, and the original manuscripts of the Bible, and Jesus' toenail clippings, and, and, and, and...und soweiter, und soweiter...
madhatter85
Transhumanist
But, shakespear nor Stephen King wrote a book as a young man which completely re-affirms and supports such an extremely complex book as the Bible.
well since the book of mormon has been examined by Scholars and scientists, It is being studied in universities around the country. maybe not as curriculum, (except in institue classes, and some BYU classes) the only conclusions they came to were either based off bias, or they couldn't form a conclusion based on science. Even archeology and DNA can't disprove the book of mormon, and I highly doubt that the ever will find such evidence.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Mozart wrote symphonies before he was a teenager, which reveal God far more eloquently than the BOM. Archaeology and DNA can't disprove that, either.
KingM
Member
And Joseph Smith didn't write Hamlet, either. I don't understand how writing a pro-Bible book makes a difference to the argument. It doesn't answer the questions about either the truthfulness of its claims or the quality of its thinking.
I'm not talking about proving it or disproving it. You said that there's no way Joseph Smith could have written a book as skilled as the Book of Mormon and I'm saying if it's that good, it should be studied as literature, regardless of whether or not it's true.
For what it's worth, I find the Book of Abraham to be superior writing to the Book of Mormon, but Joseph was older and had some writing experience under his belt when he produced it. Similarly, his interesting theology is not in the Book of Mormon, which seems to reaffirm trinitiarian Christianity and copy wholesale chunks of the Bible, together with a war story, but in the Doctrine and Covenants.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
Wrong, It's either of god, or it's not. there is no in-between. That's like saying "I think chrst is a great moral teacher, but i don't believe he is the Son of God." Either he was our Savior or, he was a lunatic or, he was something worse. that is all.
Same with the Book of Mormon. Joseph smith did not write the Book of Mormon, it is proven there had to be multiple writers. Just because Mozart makes such an eloquent idea of God does not make it correct.
You don't understand. It doesn't merely stand next to the Bible as a good book, it works along side it. I'm done with this topic. Why don't we make a thread about the Quran or other books? why> because that would offend people and the thread would get deleted. This is nothing but rediculous anti-mormon horse crap.
Same with the Book of Mormon. Joseph smith did not write the Book of Mormon, it is proven there had to be multiple writers. Just because Mozart makes such an eloquent idea of God does not make it correct.
You don't understand. It doesn't merely stand next to the Bible as a good book, it works along side it. I'm done with this topic. Why don't we make a thread about the Quran or other books? why> because that would offend people and the thread would get deleted. This is nothing but rediculous anti-mormon horse crap.
KingM
Member
Or he was a prophet but people called him divine. Or he was a teacher who was misquoted, or he never existed, or...
It has been proven by apologists at BYU. You really can't see why other people have a hard time believing this?
Again, I just don't understand this complaint. We didn't step into the middle of one of your sacrament meetings. We're on a religious debate board. So long as people remain civil, how can you be offended that they don't agree with you? And if it bothers you, you're well within your rights to simply walk away.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
yes, but just because something is flattering or eloquent doesn't mean it is truth.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think we all know truth when it socks us in the face as Mozart does.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
so if i punch you hard enough with a Book of Mormon will you shut up?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Oh! Now we see the Violence Inherent in the System! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Are you talking to Melissa G? Isn't she pagan? Pagan does not equal atheist.
DeepShadow
White Crow
As I've said elsewhere, I find it interesting that people gripe about the plates, when we can study the translation for practically the same paleolinguistic evidence. The great paleolinguist William Albright said that the original document isn't necessary as long as you have a decent translation, because the key things will remain the same--local customs, proper names, linguistic poetry and other patterns.
At the risk of killing yet another thread with information no one has an answer to, what do you make of this:
To examine the complexity of BoM chiasmus, it stands to reason we should look at the most complex sample we can find. Unfortunately, it's over forty pages long, so I'll have to stick to the high points.
In 1st Nephi chapter one, at the end of the last verse, Nephi says he will show the reader "that the tender mercies of the Lord are all over" his chosen people. This frames his intent in writing this book, and lines things up for his thesis, as stated in 1 Nephi 3:7: "I will go and do the things that the Lord hath commanded for I know that he giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
This thesis kicks off the quest for the Brass Plates of Laban, at the end of which we have a repetition of Nephi's thesis, this time voiced by his mother Saria at the end of verse 5:8: "...the Lord hath protected my sons, and delivered them out of the hands of Laban, and given them power whereby they could accomplish the thing which the Lord hath commanded them...."
These two statements form the endpoints of a chiasmus that stretches through the quest for the brass plates. I have discovered eight pairs in this chiasmus, which can be arranged thus:
a 3:7 Thesis 1--"...the things which the Lord hath commanded..."
-b 3:9 they take their tents and go traveling
--c 3:15 Bedoin oath "...as the Lord Liveth, and as we live..."
---d 3:19 Brass plates are valuable because they hold the language
----e 3:25 Laban takes away their property
-----f 3:28 Laman and Lemuel murmur
------g 3:29 An angel appears
-------h 3:31 "Laban...can command fifty..."
-------h' 4:1 "...Laban and his fifty..."
------g' 4:3 Nephi reminds them of the angel
-----f' 4:4 Laman and Lemuel continue to murmur
----e' 4:11 Nephi recalls Laban stole their property
---d' 4:15 Brass plates are valuable because they contain the Law
--c' 4:32 Bedoin oath "...as the Lord liveth, and as I live..."
-b' 4:38 they return to the tent of their father
a' 5:8 Thesis 2--"...the thing which the Lord hath commanded..."
Now we know that a and a' are major teaching points of any mnemonic chiasmus, and so it is here, but the real test is the center of the chiasmus, which is always the most important point. Here again this chiasmus passes the test: the center of the chiasmus is Nephi testifying that the Lord is "mightier than Laban and his fifty, or even than his tens of thousands".
Nephi's thesis returns in chapter 17, as the beginning of another chiasmus. Here are all the pairs I've found; please forgive me that I don't write out all the references this time:
A 17:3
-B 17:18
--C 17:19
---D 17:24
----E 17:30
-----F 17:33
------G 17:35 (beginning)
-------H 17:35 (end)
-------H' 17:38
------G' 17:40
-----F' 17:41
----E' 17:42
---D' 17:44
--C' 17:47
-B' 17:49
A' 17:50
As you might have already guessed, these two chiasm are mirror images of each other, thereby forming part of a larger chiasmus over the entire book. The end arrangement looks something like this:
a
-b
--c A
---d B
----e C,C'
-----fB'
----A'g
-------h
--------i
---------j
----------k
-----------l-D
------------m--E
-------------n---F
--------------o----G
---------------p-----H,H'
----------------q--G'
-----------------rF'
----------------E's
--------------D'---t
--------------------u
---------------------v--H
----------------------w----I
-----------------------x------J
------------------------y--------K
-------------------------z----------L
-------------------------z'---------L'
------------------------y'-------K'
-----------------------x'-----J'
----------------------w'---I'
---------------------v'-H'
--------------------u'
--------------D*---t'
----------------E*s'
-----------------r'F*
----------------q'--G*
---------------p'-----H*,H**
--------------o'----G**
-------------n'---F**
------------m'--E**
-----------l'-D**
----------k'
---------j'
--------i'
-------h'
------g'A*
-----f'-B*
----e'---C*,C**
---d'--B**
--c'-A**
-b'
a'
The sad thing is that NONE OF THIS IS EVIDENCE OF THE POWER OF GOD. Sure, God could have given Joseph the power to translate just as he said, but if we allow for God to help him translate, why can't we say that Satan helped him make a great forgery? We don't have to stop there: time travel, quantum dreaming, past lives, and astounding coincidence all have explanations for how Joseph managed bulls-eye after bulls-eye.
People say, "If I could see the plates, I would believe," but the truth is that the only way to know if God sent it is to ask Him.
At the risk of killing yet another thread with information no one has an answer to, what do you make of this:
To examine the complexity of BoM chiasmus, it stands to reason we should look at the most complex sample we can find. Unfortunately, it's over forty pages long, so I'll have to stick to the high points.
In 1st Nephi chapter one, at the end of the last verse, Nephi says he will show the reader "that the tender mercies of the Lord are all over" his chosen people. This frames his intent in writing this book, and lines things up for his thesis, as stated in 1 Nephi 3:7: "I will go and do the things that the Lord hath commanded for I know that he giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
This thesis kicks off the quest for the Brass Plates of Laban, at the end of which we have a repetition of Nephi's thesis, this time voiced by his mother Saria at the end of verse 5:8: "...the Lord hath protected my sons, and delivered them out of the hands of Laban, and given them power whereby they could accomplish the thing which the Lord hath commanded them...."
These two statements form the endpoints of a chiasmus that stretches through the quest for the brass plates. I have discovered eight pairs in this chiasmus, which can be arranged thus:
a 3:7 Thesis 1--"...the things which the Lord hath commanded..."
-b 3:9 they take their tents and go traveling
--c 3:15 Bedoin oath "...as the Lord Liveth, and as we live..."
---d 3:19 Brass plates are valuable because they hold the language
----e 3:25 Laban takes away their property
-----f 3:28 Laman and Lemuel murmur
------g 3:29 An angel appears
-------h 3:31 "Laban...can command fifty..."
-------h' 4:1 "...Laban and his fifty..."
------g' 4:3 Nephi reminds them of the angel
-----f' 4:4 Laman and Lemuel continue to murmur
----e' 4:11 Nephi recalls Laban stole their property
---d' 4:15 Brass plates are valuable because they contain the Law
--c' 4:32 Bedoin oath "...as the Lord liveth, and as I live..."
-b' 4:38 they return to the tent of their father
a' 5:8 Thesis 2--"...the thing which the Lord hath commanded..."
Now we know that a and a' are major teaching points of any mnemonic chiasmus, and so it is here, but the real test is the center of the chiasmus, which is always the most important point. Here again this chiasmus passes the test: the center of the chiasmus is Nephi testifying that the Lord is "mightier than Laban and his fifty, or even than his tens of thousands".
Nephi's thesis returns in chapter 17, as the beginning of another chiasmus. Here are all the pairs I've found; please forgive me that I don't write out all the references this time:
A 17:3
-B 17:18
--C 17:19
---D 17:24
----E 17:30
-----F 17:33
------G 17:35 (beginning)
-------H 17:35 (end)
-------H' 17:38
------G' 17:40
-----F' 17:41
----E' 17:42
---D' 17:44
--C' 17:47
-B' 17:49
A' 17:50
As you might have already guessed, these two chiasm are mirror images of each other, thereby forming part of a larger chiasmus over the entire book. The end arrangement looks something like this:
a
-b
--c A
---d B
----e C,C'
-----fB'
----A'g
-------h
--------i
---------j
----------k
-----------l-D
------------m--E
-------------n---F
--------------o----G
---------------p-----H,H'
----------------q--G'
-----------------rF'
----------------E's
--------------D'---t
--------------------u
---------------------v--H
----------------------w----I
-----------------------x------J
------------------------y--------K
-------------------------z----------L
-------------------------z'---------L'
------------------------y'-------K'
-----------------------x'-----J'
----------------------w'---I'
---------------------v'-H'
--------------------u'
--------------D*---t'
----------------E*s'
-----------------r'F*
----------------q'--G*
---------------p'-----H*,H**
--------------o'----G**
-------------n'---F**
------------m'--E**
-----------l'-D**
----------k'
---------j'
--------i'
-------h'
------g'A*
-----f'-B*
----e'---C*,C**
---d'--B**
--c'-A**
-b'
a'
The sad thing is that NONE OF THIS IS EVIDENCE OF THE POWER OF GOD. Sure, God could have given Joseph the power to translate just as he said, but if we allow for God to help him translate, why can't we say that Satan helped him make a great forgery? We don't have to stop there: time travel, quantum dreaming, past lives, and astounding coincidence all have explanations for how Joseph managed bulls-eye after bulls-eye.
People say, "If I could see the plates, I would believe," but the truth is that the only way to know if God sent it is to ask Him.
FFH
Veteran Member
These are sacred writings, not for the world to see and mishandle...
FFH
Veteran Member
Most definitely frubal worthy no doubt.
Thanks a million for posting this. Is this your own research or can you link us up to the various studies done on this.
Can you start another thread going into more detail on your research concerning this or link us to the studies done on this subject...
Fascinating...I love it...great evidence pointing to the fact that these are truly God inspired scriptures...
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Holy crap... I don't understand a word of this, but it's just fascinating... frubals on such great info!