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Where did God come from ?
- Thread starter michel
- Start date
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
I agree. The issue is, however, whether that conclusion is valid. Can you single it out by pointing someone to "the Universe"? Can you color it red to distinguish it? Can your mind take it in and capture it through your senses as a thing? Or is it merely an interpretation?zoro said:
Most people have come to the conclusion (based on an overwhelming amount of evidence) that God is more than just "an idea." They are even prepared to accept the possibility that God will continue even when they are dead (and no longer have any ideas).zoro said:
But the issue again is whether that conclusion is valid.
Cordoba: Re. your statement that I quote below.
"OK, lets take it step-by-step
"The universe exists, and it is not eternal as it's only around 14 billion years old.
"Right?"
I agree that such is what the data suggest.
"Can you (prove) where the universe comes from?"
Well, as far as I know, nothing dealing with reality can be "proved" -- including that statement! That is, "proof" and "truth" are concepts appropriate only for what are called "closed systems" (e.g., such as various games, mathematics, all "holy books", etc.). Thus I can "prove" that Superman is weakened by Kryptonite, that God parted the "Reed" Sea, and that Allah made the universe, because it says so in the respective "holy books" (counting a Superman comic book right up there with the Bible and the Koran). Meanwhile, though, in the "open system" that we call "reality", how Superman actually reacts to kryptonite and how the universe created itself are concepts whose "truth" we can approach only asymptotically, via the scientific method.
"One answer is that it has a Creator, and that its Creator must be eternal, or else the creator of the universe would himself need a creator, who would also need a creator (in a never ending chain of creators, as mentioned in the Gulen article)"
Well, that's a very old argument (originally concocted by Aristotle and copied by so many people, including Thomas Aquinas, who claimed it as his own). Meanwhile, though, I'm surprised that anyone still uses such a silly argument, since it has been "shot down" so many times! Thus, it uses the principle of causality (that everything has a cause) to prove that some thing (God) doesn't have a cause. Those of with our heads still screwed on say: "Say what?!"
"This thread is not about whether God exists or not, but about if God exists, who created God."
Well, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there is the possibility [extremely remote, with a probability of about 1 chance in 10^500, i.e., in chance in 100000000… (to a total of 500 zeros!)] that the universe created a god (out of total nothingness).
"And the answer is very simple: nobody. He is Eternal and He is the source of all creation."
Well, maybe that answer is "very simple" for you, but for me, it's so silly that I don't know how you can state it with a straight face. Or are you just joking?!
"OK, lets take it step-by-step
"The universe exists, and it is not eternal as it's only around 14 billion years old.
"Right?"
I agree that such is what the data suggest.
"Can you (prove) where the universe comes from?"
Well, as far as I know, nothing dealing with reality can be "proved" -- including that statement! That is, "proof" and "truth" are concepts appropriate only for what are called "closed systems" (e.g., such as various games, mathematics, all "holy books", etc.). Thus I can "prove" that Superman is weakened by Kryptonite, that God parted the "Reed" Sea, and that Allah made the universe, because it says so in the respective "holy books" (counting a Superman comic book right up there with the Bible and the Koran). Meanwhile, though, in the "open system" that we call "reality", how Superman actually reacts to kryptonite and how the universe created itself are concepts whose "truth" we can approach only asymptotically, via the scientific method.
"One answer is that it has a Creator, and that its Creator must be eternal, or else the creator of the universe would himself need a creator, who would also need a creator (in a never ending chain of creators, as mentioned in the Gulen article)"
Well, that's a very old argument (originally concocted by Aristotle and copied by so many people, including Thomas Aquinas, who claimed it as his own). Meanwhile, though, I'm surprised that anyone still uses such a silly argument, since it has been "shot down" so many times! Thus, it uses the principle of causality (that everything has a cause) to prove that some thing (God) doesn't have a cause. Those of with our heads still screwed on say: "Say what?!"
"This thread is not about whether God exists or not, but about if God exists, who created God."
Well, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there is the possibility [extremely remote, with a probability of about 1 chance in 10^500, i.e., in chance in 100000000… (to a total of 500 zeros!)] that the universe created a god (out of total nothingness).
"And the answer is very simple: nobody. He is Eternal and He is the source of all creation."
Well, maybe that answer is "very simple" for you, but for me, it's so silly that I don't know how you can state it with a straight face. Or are you just joking?!
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
"Prove" it? No. First, that the Earth is spherical is an interpretation that depends on context and perspecitve. But even if it could be reduced to an empirical proposition (by agreeing on the parameters and measurements that make something "spherical"), it is still inductive in nature. If we have a common understanding of "spherical," the most I can do is demonstrate that the Earth is almost definitely spherical.michel said:
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
zoro said:
No I'm not joking.
That we don't understand what eternity means does not prove it doesn't exist
In the same way that we don't understand the concept of infinity in algebra, doesn't mean that in the function y = 1/x when x tends to 0, y tends to infinity is wrong
Same here. The Creator of this universe is Eternal. We may not understand what eternity means but that doesn't change anything.
As for cause and effect, the same laws of The Creator don't apply, like for example a software engineer who works on a robot's software is not constrained (does not function) with the software he designed.
doppelgänger said:It is true that God was created at the same time and by the same person as our universe was created. But I'm still not a theist.
Perfect explanation of my own thoughts on the matter.
Peace,
Mystic
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
MysticSang'ha said:Perfect explanation of my own thoughts on the matter.
Peace,
Mystic
I notice your posts almost always resonate with me.
Cordoba: The errors you make in your logical anaylysis (the fallacy of "argumentum ad ignorantium"), your apparent failure to appreciate the inadequacies of any argument by analogy and the impossibility of proving any "existence" via logic, your apparent unawareness of the scientific method lead,... lead me to suggest that you re-examine the widsom of your compatriot Ptah-Hotep, from 4400 years ago:
"If thou wouldest be a wise man, and one sitting in council…, apply thine heart unto perfection. Silence is more profitable unto thee than abundance of speech... It is a foolish thing to speak on every kind of work, for he that disputeth thy words shall put them unto proof."
"If thou wouldest be a wise man, and one sitting in council…, apply thine heart unto perfection. Silence is more profitable unto thee than abundance of speech... It is a foolish thing to speak on every kind of work, for he that disputeth thy words shall put them unto proof."
Cordoba: The errors you make in your logical anaylysis (the fallacy of "argumentum ad ignorantium"), your apparent failure to appreciate the inadequacies of any argument by analogy and the impossibility of proving any "existence" via logic, your apparent unawareness of the scientific method lead,... lead me to suggest that you re-examine the widsom of your compatriot Ptah-Hotep, from 4400 years ago:
"If thou wouldest be a wise man, and one sitting in council…, apply thine heart unto perfection. Silence is more profitable unto thee than abundance of speech... It is a foolish thing to speak on every kind of work, for he that disputeth thy words shall put them unto proof."
"If thou wouldest be a wise man, and one sitting in council…, apply thine heart unto perfection. Silence is more profitable unto thee than abundance of speech... It is a foolish thing to speak on every kind of work, for he that disputeth thy words shall put them unto proof."
Gentoo
The Feisty Penguin
Michel said:
I, for one, don't believe that the Gods are eternal. I expect they would get tired of the same old things just like we do, though of course not in the same time frames
So where do they come from?
I think they came from us. We created them in our minds way back when religion was still new, as a way to explain the world around us. Don't take this to mean that I don't believe in objective gods, I do. I think that because humans believed in them so completely, that the gods were created out of those feelings of devotion.
In short, I believe that our emotions created the gods.
TurkeyOnRye
Well-Known Member
Well, how easy is that? To make such a claim without any evidence is a fiat. How in the world would anyone know that there is such a being?! Certainly such limited beings such as us cannot truly comprehend the creation (it may not have been created at all; see "Infinite Universe theory") of it or its workings.Cordoba said:
Bingo! That's why anyone from any religion can feel the touch of God. They are emotions that saturate our brains with dopamine and seratonin and all that ooey gooey stuff that makes us feel really great. An internal desire to have purpose and let everything make sense (evolutionarily speaking, purpose is needed to drive concious beings such as humans) drives us to believe in such things. And if conflicting thoughts get in the way (cognitive dissonance), the thought that promotes our interests will 'always' win out. Thus religion lives on...more justifications, more evasions, more people who don't just humble themselves and admit that they may not know everything.Gentoo said:
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Perhaps God is a product of the Universe, much like our Selves are the product of our bodies? A single living cell in my body does not represent the whole of my Self, only a piece of it. Perhaps I am a piece of a larger being. God. The subjective mind of the Universe.
Not that I necessarily buy into that. I like it, though.
Not that I necessarily buy into that. I like it, though.
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
Well, I will just focus on answering Michel's question...
The short version of the answer is ''no one created God''
The long version is a very simple one though, and breifly can be described as follows:
something must have initiated the universe, this thing can not belong to the universe itself, since nothing is that powerfull to initiate such a thing...
Thus, we get to conclude that something not natural initiated the universe, which can be described as a supernatural ''thing''..
So, what creates a supernatural thing?...nothing simply, since a supernatuaral thing doesnt obey the natural rules, and thus the natural logic...
And this is simply what we call God (Glory be to Him)
The short version of the answer is ''no one created God''
The long version is a very simple one though, and breifly can be described as follows:
something must have initiated the universe, this thing can not belong to the universe itself, since nothing is that powerfull to initiate such a thing...
Thus, we get to conclude that something not natural initiated the universe, which can be described as a supernatural ''thing''..
So, what creates a supernatural thing?...nothing simply, since a supernatuaral thing doesnt obey the natural rules, and thus the natural logic...
And this is simply what we call God (Glory be to Him)
God is the quintessence of the energy that is manifest via sound and light : that is, matter itself. God has always existed: but He has not always been Self-aware, I believe. The instigation of Creation, that is the reformation of the pre-existing firmament into what it resembles today (ie. the Cosmos and its composite planes, dimensions and Universes) came to be when God realized God. Thence, the big bang and all the rest of it commemorate this moment when God exploded into Self-consciousness and the resulting complexities of the Creation that resulted are reflective of GOD Himself in all of His own multifarious aspects. Creation is God looking inward @ Himself: the whole is contained in every part.
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
A nice story...but not more!Godlike said:
God existed forever, God existed befor the creation of time and space...That's how God is not a part of our termnology or science...He is a unique and one of a kind...
Whoever tries to link God with science, or denying His existance with science is just wasting his time
EiNsTeiN said:
I have no idea what you mean by this. What has but not more got to do with what I said? Or did you mean but no more?
EiNsTeiN said:
God is the God of all sciences whether science likes it or not. No-one can legitimately deny the existence of God be it with science or faith: there is no god, I tell you, there really really isn't!
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
EiNsTeiN said:
How do you know this?
EiNsTeiN said:
How so?