Where did Good People go Before Christ Died on the Cross?

[Hong Xiuquan]

If I may ask a question then.

If everyone has an equal chance of finding god in their lifetime what was the point of having a chosen people prior to Jesus? it seems a bit of a contradiction.

My view on this is that God had a special.....deeper relationship with the Israelites....even though they continually rebelled against him. By working with a people group closely, the Jews could (and we can) learn about God and how to get to know him and how to get close to him.You seem to assume that Christians don't believe that any non-Jews were saved. We have many stories in the Bible of God saving other people groups and being concerned about them too (eg Jonah was sent as a prophet to non-Jewish people....and they all repented....therefore, they are in Heaven now). I think the Jews misunderstood God's intentions and plans. He was using them to introduce salvation for all of mankind.

A good book that I would recommend to you about this topic is "Eternity in Their Hearts" by Don Richardson. He seems to "suggest" that even Epimenides was saved as he had worked out by experimentation that a great god existed....an "unknown god" and he was able to make contact with him but in a very limited way.....due to limited knowledge. I did read the story on the internet too. Richardson's view is that everyone can find God, but their relationship with him maybe more limited than others. Richardson is not suggesting that everyone will be saved though.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

My view on this is that God had a special.....deeper relationship with the Israelites....even though they continually rebelled against him. By working with a people group closely, the Jews could (and we can) learn about God and how to get to know him and how to get close to him.You seem to assume that Christians don't believe that any non-Jews were saved. We have many stories in the Bible of God saving other people groups and being concerned about them too (eg Jonah was sent as a prophet to non-Jewish people....and they all repented....therefore, they are in Heaven now). I think the Jews misunderstood God's intentions and plans. He was using them to introduce salvation for all of mankind.

A good book that I would recommend to you about this topic is "Eternity in Their Hearts" by Don Richardson. He seems to "suggest" that even Epimenides was saved as he had worked out by experimentation that a great god existed....an "unknown god" and he was able to make contact with him but in a very limited way.....due to limited knowledge. I did read the story on the internet too. Richardson's view is that everyone can find God, but their relationship with him maybe more limited than others. Richardson is not suggesting that everyone will be saved though.

Would you agree that someone born into a tribe with a "deeper" relationship with god would have a much better chance than someone born no where near there?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Well, for your specific question about where did good people go before Jesus died? We know that according to Jesus Christ own words no one has ever ascended to heaven except the son of man.Jesus explained this to Nicodemus.

John 3:12,13. …12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

So, here from Jesus own mouth, in scripture, we can clearly see that only he has gone to heaven.

Those who died before went into Sheol,Hades,a grave.All did.Even God's chosen ones like King David.

Acts 13:36 "Now when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed.

When people die they know nothing and return to the earth.They do not go to heaven like many assume.They go to a grave and await.Just like Jesus displayed while on earth.Unlike David,Jesus body did not decay.He was resurrected by God.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Acts 2:31.Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

Here we have a quote from Psalm.It speaks of Jesus not staying in the grave but being resurrected as promised as a witness to the world.This is why Jesus is called the first and the last.He was the first to be resurrected to eternal life,by God personally.And the Last.Jesus himself resurrected people while he was preaching.Like his good friend Lazarus.Lazarus though was not resurrected to eternal life on earth.He was resurrected back to a mortal life.Jeusus on the other hand was the first to be resurrected to eternal life as a spirit.When Lazarus died, he went back to a grave,not heaven.Jesus ascended to heaven after 40 days of walking the earth appearing to people.

Thank you for sharing this. I will accept that your view that we "fall asleep" is a common one taught in many mainstream Christian churches. How do you interpret what Christ said about the thief entering paradise with him? I believe that Christians go directly to Heaven after they die.....but if they do in fact, have to "go to sleep in the grave until the resurrection", then that is fine with me. In regards to what Jesus said to Nicodemus: I believe he was talking about the past....yes, it was true "no-one had ascended to Heaven" yet because Jesus had not yet died and risen.

I'm fine with you having your view....but.....I'll leave you with this: If Christ has removed our sin, and enabled us to now enter Heaven without guilt....and without the possibility that our sin would contaminate Heaven, then why would he not want to share Heaven with us after we die? Why would he let us wait....when we could enter Heaven and be with him straight after we die?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Would you agree that someone born into a tribe with a "deeper" relationship with god would have a much better chance than someone born no where near there?

It would seem that way from our logic. However, God is not stupid. If he gives one culture more revelations than another, then he will also expect a lot more too. From my understanding of the Bible, not many of the Jews are in Heaven. They had a thing for other idols and going astray. God called them harlots many times.

 

[Nada]

Thank you for sharing this. I will accept that your view that we "fall asleep" is a common one taught in many mainstream Christian churches. How do you interpret what Christ said about the thief entering paradise with him? I believe that Christians go directly to Heaven after they die.....but if they do in fact, have to "go to sleep in the grave until the resurrection", then that is fine with me. In regards to what Jesus said to Nicodemus: I believe he was talking about the past....yes, it was true "no-one had ascended to Heaven" yet because Jesus had not yet died and risen.

I'm fine with you having your view....but.....I'll leave you with this: If Christ has removed our sin, and enabled us to now enter Heaven without guilt....and without the possibility that our sin would contaminate Heaven, then why would he not want to share Heaven with us after we die? Why would he let us wait....when we could enter Heaven and be with him straight after we die?

It matters not what we think about it.What matters is what Jesus says in the holy scriptures,according to God's will.Many have their own interpretations and understandings, but there is only one truth.

Genesis 40:8 "We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."

This is what God commands and explains to us through His word.It is very clear that no one has ever ascended to heaven but Jesus Christ.This is what God's word says.

"Fall asleep" is not taught by "mainstream Christian churches." It was taught by Jesus Christ and his disciples in the 1st century.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

This is very clear from the beginning.Here we have the disciples of Jesus Christ speaking about this very matter.They all understand that death is temporary for them in this world, where they are alien residents.They know that death is likened to sleep for they will be awakened in the future.
As for your question about the thief next to Jesus that was promised he would be in paradise.This is very easy.Jesus and that thief did not go to heaven together.Jesus did not yet ascend to heaven until after 40 days after his resurrection.Here Jesus speaks to Mary Magdalene and explains it to her.


John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So, we already know Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven.He did not go to heaven, drop of the thief, and come back to earth.

Another thing to take into consideration is that the thief was not born again as required.He was not water baptized nor was he begotten by God's holy spirit.Only those who fit into this group of followers are to be taken to heaven.Just like those who were all present during the Pentecost of 33 C.E.

Jesus explains this
John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

It gets deeper, but these scriptures are sufficient.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It would seem that way from our logic. However, God is not stupid. If he gives one culture more revelations than another, then he will also expect a lot more too. From my understanding of the Bible, not many of the Jews are in Heaven. They had a thing for other idols and going astray. God called them harlots many times.

Indeed. But the issue is what was it about their relationship with god made them his chosen? How was it fundamentally different if in no way shape or form it was favorable?

 

[Unification]

Can you provide Biblical verses to support your last statement? I'd like to discuss this further with you.

Matthew 16:13
John 9:2
Genesis 3:19
Job 1:21

 

[InChrist]

My view on this is that God had a special.....deeper relationship with the Israelites....even though they continually rebelled against him. By working with a people group closely, the Jews could (and we can) learn about God and how to get to know him and how to get close to him.You seem to assume that Christians don't believe that any non-Jews were saved. We have many stories in the Bible of God saving other people groups and being concerned about them too (eg Jonah was sent as a prophet to non-Jewish people....and they all repented....therefore, they are in Heaven now). I think the Jews misunderstood God's intentions and plans. He was using them to introduce salvation for all of mankind.

A good book that I would recommend to you about this topic is "Eternity in Their Hearts" by Don Richardson. He seems to "suggest" that even Epimenides was saved as he had worked out by experimentation that a great god existed....an "unknown god" and he was able to make contact with him but in a very limited way.....due to limited knowledge. I did read the story on the internet too. Richardson's view is that everyone can find God, but their relationship with him maybe more limited than others. Richardson is not suggesting that everyone will be saved though.

I have that book. I found it had some very good insight and I think it validates the truth of the scriptures that God is present everywhere making Himself known to everyone.

 

[InChrist]

From what I see in the scriptures, I believe that before Christ the physical bodies of all go to the grave to "sleep" to await the resurrection, but their conscious soul/spirit goes to either of two destinations: believers went to Abram's bosom and non-believers to torment in Hades...
There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ Luke 16:19-26

After the work of Christ on the cross the physical body still goes to the grave, again to await the resurrection, while the soul/spirit of non-believers go to the same temporary place of torment as the rich man in the account above, the soul/spirit of believers go to be with the Lord...
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[Bunyip]

That is one popular mainstream Christian view.

It is what the bible says.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Jesus explains this
John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

"Happy the poor in spirit -- because theirs is the reign of the heavens."
"Happy the clean in heart -- because they shall see God."
"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return."
"What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it."
"Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father."

Jesus says nothing about being born again when he speaks about these people going to heaven. Why? They don't need to be. Very simple.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

It matters not what we think about it.What matters is what Jesus says in the holy scriptures,according to God's will.Many have their own interpretations and understandings, but there is only one truth.

Genesis 40:8 "We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."

This is what God commands and explains to us through His word.It is very clear that no one has ever ascended to heaven but Jesus Christ.This is what God's word says.

"Fall asleep" is not taught by "mainstream Christian churches." It was taught by Jesus Christ and his disciples in the 1st century.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

This is very clear from the beginning.Here we have the disciples of Jesus Christ speaking about this very matter.They all understand that death is temporary for them in this world, where they are alien residents.They know that death is likened to sleep for they will be awakened in the future.
As for your question about the thief next to Jesus that was promised he would be in paradise.This is very easy.Jesus and that thief did not go to heaven together.Jesus did not yet ascend to heaven until after 40 days after his resurrection.Here Jesus speaks to Mary Magdalene and explains it to her.


John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So, we already know Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven.He did not go to heaven, drop of the thief, and come back to earth.

Another thing to take into consideration is that the thief was not born again as required.He was not water baptized nor was he begotten by God's holy spirit.Only those who fit into this group of followers are to be taken to heaven.Just like those who were all present during the Pentecost of 33 C.E.

Jesus explains this
John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

It gets deeper, but these scriptures are sufficient.

Thank you for sharing your perspectives on the various verses. For me, it's not really important to argue or debate what happens to a Christian after they die. The main thing is whether they are saved or not. I believe that the repentant thief was born again. He had a change of heart. He was repentant. He would have gotten baptized if he could have. But given the situation, it was impossible. So, do you believe that the thief went to Hell because he wasn't baptized? Or are you saying you believe he went to sleep in the grave, and that Jesus was talking about when the thief would be resurrected? Jesus made a promise to the thief. The promise was in regards to being in Heaven. When the thief entered Heaven is not important to me. What is important is that he was promised Heaven....and this promise gives many other death bed converts hope too.....that they can also enter Heaven.

Here is another question for you. How about the Muslim who is bed ridden and dying, that has a dream (from God) that they need to contact a Christian relative and talk to them about death. The person then locates the relative and becomes a Christian.....weeping so many tears in repentance that the shirt he is wearing is drenched. The Christian relative says nothing to the family about the conversion out of fear. The person then passes away 30 minutes later without baptism and without anyone in the family knowing about the conversion. The departed is then given a Muslim funeral. Do you believe that the person goes to Heaven? I do.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Indeed. But the issue is what was it about their relationship with god made them his chosen? How was it fundamentally different if in no way shape or form it was favorable?

I personally don't think there was anything special about the Israelites that attracted God's attention. He had a long term plan in mind....in regards to the salvation of mankind. The Jews didn't understand this plan. I think that many Israelites wrongly came to believe that because God had chosen them for a close relationship (for his purpose), he had therefore rejected the rest of mankind. But I can see how it would be easy to come to this conclusion. The Jews believed that they were special but God could have chosen to use any people group....for example the Chinese or Indians.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Matthew 16:13
John 9:2
Genesis 3:19
Job 1:21

Thank you for providing those references. Yes, people who believe in reincarnation usually point out Matt.16:13-14. The usual Christian interpretation of these verses is that a 2nd Elijah would be someone who came with the same power and authority as the 1st one did. The Jewish people never taught reincarnation. However, if you disagree, that's fine. My Taoist friends back home also use these verses to support their beliefs too. You would really need to find something in the Torah that was clearly teaching reincarnation for your argument to hold water.

In regards to the other verses....I don't see how they can be interpreted to suggest a belief in reincarnation. Could you explain in detail how you reached your conclusions?

 

[arthra]

Thank you for sharing the Bahai position. Could you explain what you mean by "station" in more detail?

A "Station" would be the spiritual position of say in this case a Prophet...

I'll provide a few examples of how the word "station" is used:


Not until thou hast grasped the mysteries concealed in that which We shall relate unto thee canst thou hope to attain to the stations of faith and certitude in the Cause of God

~ Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 9

The great ones are from all time in their glorious station, their reality is luminous from the beginning, the reality that causes the qualities of God to appear, but the day of their manifestation is the day when they proclaim themselves of this earth.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 52

It is accepted, clear and established that every preceding Manifestation of God has prophesied the appearance of his successor to the people in accordance with their stations and capabilities

Provisional Translations, Tablet of the Son (Jesus)

 

[Unification]

Thank you for providing those references. Yes, people who believe in reincarnation usually point out Matt.16:13-14. The usual Christian interpretation of these verses is that a 2nd Elijah would be someone who came with the same power and authority as the 1st one did. The Jewish people never taught reincarnation. However, if you disagree, that's fine. My Taoist friends back home also use these verses to support their beliefs too. You would really need to find something in the Torah that was clearly teaching reincarnation for your argument to hold water.

In regards to the other verses....I don't see how they can be interpreted to suggest a belief in reincarnation. Could you explain in detail how you reached your conclusions?

Thank you for the reply, the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Even if anything has been mainstream and dogmatic for thousands of years, and popular belief... Doesn't make anything true.

The heritage Jews thought Jesus was a reincarnated prophet.

Gilgal- the circle/wheel of life, and the escape.

I've never died, I wasn't afraid of being born, I'm not afraid to die. Same things. All I've ever known was being conscious. It was appointed once for me to "spiritually" die and finally crucify my ego and resurrect internally.

 

[roger1440]

I think the Jews misunderstood God's intentions and plans.

Yeah, it takes a non-Jew to explain Jewish scripture to the Jews. What’s up with them Jews? You would think they would have wised up by now.

 

[JayJayDee]

How do you interpret what Christ said about the thief entering paradise with him? I believe that Christians go directly to Heaven after they die.....but if they do in fact, have to "go to sleep in the grave until the resurrection", then that is fine with me.

It is actually what the Bible teaches. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one was called to heaven before Jesus' return, according to Paul. All were "sleeping", just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (ESV)

Since the thief who died alongside Jesus was promised "paradise" not "heaven" it stands to reason that the thief will be resurrected into the earthly paradise under Christ's kingship. (John 5:28, 29) Jesus did not go to heaven straight after his death. When Mary saw him after his resurrection, he told her that he had "not yet ascended to his Father" (John 20:17) He did not return to heaven for 40 days in fact. So the evildoer was not in paradise with Jesus that day. Jesus made the promise to him that day...big difference.

If Christ has removed our sin, and enabled us to now enter Heaven without guilt....and without the possibility that our sin would contaminate Heaven, then why would he not want to share Heaven with us after we die? Why would he let us wait....when we could enter Heaven and be with him straight after we die?

Those who go to heaven are chosen for a specific role as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) Do you imagine everyone in heaven as a king and priest? How could that be? Those who go to heaven are given a spirit body completely free of sin and as a result can be granted immortality. They will not need priests...and kings do not rule other kings.

Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for who to perform their duties. John sees the subjects of the heavenly kingdom in Rev 21:2-5....

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

The bride of Christ are his chosen ones. This is the "holy city"......"new Jerusalem"...God's kingdom is seen bringing its rule to a cleansed earth. How wonderful to see no more tears or suffering or pain...and no more death! Those things are now gone forever.

Redeemed mankind will be the subjects of this kingdom. And the Bible indicates that those chosen to rule with Christ will be a finite number, whereas those over whom they rule, will be "a great multitude" praising God and the Lamb for their salvation. (Rev 7:4, 9, 10, 13, 14)

Christ's sacrifice was not intended so that everyone could go to heaven. God never intended for ANY human to go to heaven at the beginning. It was Adam's sin that made that necessary. If Adam had not sinned, Christ would never have needed to come and no one would ever have gone to heaven to form a kingdom.

No one seems to understand why there was a need for a savior and a kingdom in the first place.

 

[JoStories]

It would seem that way from our logic. However, God is not stupid. If he gives one culture more revelations than another, then he will also expect a lot more too. From my understanding of the Bible, not many of the Jews are in Heaven. They had a thing for other idols and going astray. God called them harlots many times.

And that, IMO, is what makes the Christian God into a monster. If one accepts your views of God, that paints God into this selective God that discards so many as to be a cult leader. Those who don't adhere to one book are damned. In essence, you limit God. You place restrictions on how one can view and understand God and that, for me, is untenable. As you say, Jews are not in heaven and that are idolaters and harlots. Is that not making God into a modern day Hitler? Who in the world would care to believe in such a monstrous being? I certainly believe in God but for me, God is nothing like that at all.

 

[JoStories]

Thank you for sharing your perspectives on the various verses. For me, it's not really important to argue or debate what happens to a Christian after they die. The main thing is whether they are saved or not. I believe that the repentant thief was born again. He had a change of heart. He was repentant. He would have gotten baptized if he could have. But given the situation, it was impossible. So, do you believe that the thief went to Hell because he wasn't baptized? Or are you saying you believe he went to sleep in the grave, and that Jesus was talking about when the thief would be resurrected? Jesus made a promise to the thief. The promise was in regards to being in Heaven. When the thief entered Heaven is not important to me. What is important is that he was promised Heaven....and this promise gives many other death bed converts hope too.....that they can also enter Heaven.

Here is another question for you. How about the Muslim who is bed ridden and dying, that has a dream (from God) that they need to contact a Christian relative and talk to them about death. The person then locates the relative and becomes a Christian.....weeping so many tears in repentance that the shirt he is wearing is drenched. The Christian relative says nothing to the family about the conversion out of fear. The person then passes away 30 minutes later without baptism and without anyone in the family knowing about the conversion. The departed is then given a Muslim funeral. Do you believe that the person goes to Heaven? I do.

Why should this Muslim have to 'repent'; a concept I find to be completely opposite that what Christ taught and further, to be about as silly as it can get (no offense), why should this Muslim have to repent and join your faith at all? He was a Muslim after all, and did believe in Allah (God) as he understood God. What is wrong with that? The exclusivity of your faith makes my skin crawl when it comes to an understanding of God and what God may want for us. How do you know, without a shadow of doubt, that my views of God are wrong? Simple answer is that you can't know that this side of death. So the question of who enters heaven or hell becomes moot because of that.