Where do Proponents Of Intelligent Design Propose the Designer Came From?

[Etritonakin]

**climbs up onto pontoon boat**

Did I get any on me?

Roof dude -you forgot to put a roof on it.

 

[Etritonakin]

What constitutes "historical" evidence of a world wide flood?

Don't mean to be sarcastic, but yah I do....

The recorded references to catastrophic floods throughout history -including the bible? ...As opposed to other sorts of evidence?

 

[Ouroboros]

Okie dokie, but sometimes science doesn't know what it thinks it knows, or it knows something which is true, but the implications thereof change with continued discovery

Science doesn't even know what percentage of the knowable is known

I do get what you are saying, though

Science is a bit like religion in that things get blurry when humans get involved, because they don't always follow the rules

I kind'a agree with you.

The distinction we have to make here though is that science is like math, it's a method or process and has certain requirements or restrictions, and scientists are the ones doing science.

 

[Skwim]

OK -so I will answer even though you didn't meet the requirements.

Ummm but instead they do chew cud -they just do it in a more roundabout way as other animals. It's not about what you think of as chewing cud -it's about what the writer thought of it.
If you are just going to get stuck on a little word like "cud", you probably won't get the more important concepts.

Obviously you haven't a clue as to what cud is.

Words are fallible -but that's not the same as saying "the bible" is fallible. For example.... when the word "Passover" was translated "Easter", etc... but that's not "the bible" being fallible -and whether or not words are perfectly accurate actually has little to do with truth.

We're not talking about different words that identify the same subject . We're talking about a word that misidentifies a subject; like calling a steelworker a woodworker, or calling an apple an acorn. It's simply false. The Bible unequivocally says that coneys (hares) chew cud, and coneys don't even produce cud. The Bible really flubbed up.

Coneys (hares) chew their cud

Leviticus 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.

They do the same thing -for the same reason -as other animals -it just goes around instead of back up.

"All rabbits do it. if the do not eat them they will become very sick.....it's not actual poop, it's cecals. Rabbits have a large cecum, which is a blind pouch located at the junction of the small intestine and the large intestine, where the digestible portions of the intestinal contents enter and are broken down by bacteria. Some nutrients are absorbed through the wall of the cecum, but most nutrients are locked up in the bacteria. The rabbit then produces bacteria-rich droppings called ecotropes, which are softer, stickier, greener and have a stronger odor than the regular waste droppings. These cecotropes are eaten directly from the anus as soon as they are produced. The cecotropes are then passed through the digestive tract of the rabbit and nutrients such as vitamins,amino acids and fatty acids are released from the bacteria and absorbed into the rabbit's body. In this way, rabbits are very efficient at producing their own vitamin, protein and fat supply from food that for some animals, such as ourselves, would be totally useless. This is why Rabbit manure is the only manure you can use direct form the animal without composting it first, and it wont hurt your plants by burning them with too much nitrogen."

This is cute, and incredibly ignorant---although it's clear why it's presented as such; trying to pass off feces as cud. Here's an old diagram I came across showing the difference in their routes.

And here's a more detailed illustration of how cattle ruminate

Notice how the cud never goes through the omasum, abomasum, and intestines. AND the cow never eats its poop.


And how hares preform refection

Notice that the food is never passed back up to the mouth for further mastication. AND the rabbit does eat its poop. As for confusing one for the other, as some apologists have claimed, even a three year-old could set you straight.

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.

"How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem."

PERHAPS Solomon had forty thousand stalls for horses TOTAL -but only BESTOWED four thousand IN the chariot cities and WITH the king at Jerusalem.
Did a quick search on this one (Wikipedia)....

Nope, because in 1 Kings 4:27 it tells us the same thing as 2 Chronicals 9:25, "And those officers provided victuals for king Solomon, and for all that came unto king Solomon's table, every man in his month; they let nothing be lacking."

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.

"Value of pi = 30.
"He made the sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it." "It was a handbreadth in thickness... It held two thousand baths" - 1 Kings 7: 23,26"

"The Molten Sea or Brazen Sea (ים מוצק "cast metal sea") was a large basin in the Temple in Jerusalem made by Solomon for ablution of the priests. It is described in 1 Kings 7 and 2 Chronicles 4. It stood in the south-eastern corner of the inner court. According to the Bible it was five cubits high, ten cubits in diameter from brim to brim, and thirty cubits in circumference. The brim was "like the calyx of a lily" and turned outward "about an hand breadth"; or about four inches. (Because a circumference could not be taken on the edge of the brim, the line would have been drawn around the basin just below the rim; thus the circle measured would be less than ten cubits diameter.)

Approximation of π

Main article: Approximations of π § Imputed biblical value

The biblical description that the bowl has a diameter of 10 cubits and a circumference of 30 cubits suggest that in the construction of the basin, π was approximated with the integer value 3. This is consistent with the practice in Babylonian mathematics at the time (6th century BC), but it has given rise to debate within rabbinical Judaism from an early period due to the concern that the biblical text might here be inaccurate.[/quote]

[quote]Rabbi Nehemiah in the 2nd century argued that the text is not claiming that π equals 3, but instead that the Hebrews measured the diameter on the outside of the rim of the bowl, while the circumference was measured along the inside of the rim. After accounting for the width of the brim, this results in a ratio closer to the true value of π. Assuming that a cubit was about 18 inches and a handbreadth was about 4 inches, the ratio of the described dimensions of the bowl differs from π by less than 1%.[9]"

Read this before and am still not impressed. What would be the reason for describing one measurement to a certain point and then describing another measurement to another point without differentiating the two?And not even giving a hint. It would be stupid. It's like saying a building is 20 feet high and 25 feet tall.

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.

 

[Etritonakin]

Obviously you haven't a clue as to what cud is.

We're not talking about different words that identify the same subject . We're talking about a word that misidentifies a subject; like calling a steelworker a woodworker, or calling an apple an acorn. It's simply false. The Bible unequivocally says that coneys (hares) chew cud, and coneys don't even produce cud. The Bible really flubbed up.

This is cute, and incredibly ignorant---although it's clear why it's presented as such; trying to pass off feces as cud. Here's an old diagram I came across showing the difference in their routes.

And here's a more detailed illustration of how cattle ruminate

Notice how the cud never goes through the omasum, abomasum, and intestines. AND the cow never eats its poop.


And how hares preform refection

Notice that the food is never passed back up to the mouth for further mastication. AND the rabbit does eat its poop. As for confusing one for the other, as some apologists have claimed, even a three year-old could set you straight.

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.




Nope, because in 1 Kings 4:27 it tells us the same thing as 2 Chronicals 9:25, "And those officers provided victuals for king Solomon, and for all that came unto king Solomon's table, every man in his month; they let nothing be lacking."

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.



Read this before and am still not impressed. What would be the reason for describing one measurement to a certain point and then describing another measurement to another point without differentiating the two?And not even giving a hint. It would be stupid. It's like saying a building is 20 feet high and 25 feet tall.

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.

I really hope you are just trying to wear me out.

 

[Etritonakin]

I kind'a agree with you.

The distinction we have to make here though is that science is like math, it's a method or process and has certain requirements or restrictions, and scientists are the ones doing science.

Amen. We also have to realize that science is an extremely useful tool, but extremely inadequate alone.

 

[rusra02]

Well, here's what the Bible really says:

No unicorns? Let me remind you

• Numbers 23:22 “God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.”

• Numbers 24:8 “God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.”

• Job 39:9 “Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”

• Job 39:10 “Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?”

• Psalms 29:6 “He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.”

• Psalms 92:10 “But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.”

• Deuteronomy 33:17 “His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

• Psalms 22:21 “Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.”

• Isaiah 34:7 “And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.”

As for the series of events in Genesis 1, you're evidently saying that the order of the verses in the Bible can be switched around. Take Matthew 3:1-8 as an example.

Matthew 3

1And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,

8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

3 For this is he that was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.

5 Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan;

4 Now John himself had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

6 and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

2 Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

Or, in the case of Genesis 1 . . . . . . . .

GENESIS 1

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament
from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.​

If not, then you're going to have to accept the fact that the order in which they appear expresses the order in which the events in each happened.

Matthew 3

1And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,

2 Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.

4 Now John himself had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan;

6 and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
​

And that first earth (and the heavens) was created,

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

and then,

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the
darkness.​

All of geology says the flood didn't happen. All of linguistics says the Tower of Babel could not have happened. All you have is the word of a single, fallible, book.

How many stalls and horsemen?

1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
​

Value of pi = 30.

"He made the sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it." "It was a handbreadth in thickness... It held two thousand baths" - 1 Kings 7: 23,26
​

Coneys (hares) chew their cud

Leviticus 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.


​

Of course we've all heard the silly explanations for these errors, and none are any better than the claims for the flood and the Tower of Babel.

The word "unicorn" does not appear in the original Hebrew text. It is an English word. A quick check of modern translations show the Hebrew word translated "unicorns" in the KJV of 1611 is the wild ox or bull, now extinct. "The wild bull referred to in the Bible was likely the aurochs (Latin urus). Two thousand years ago, these animals were found in Gaul (now France), and Julius Caesar wrote the following description of them: “These uri are scarcely less than elephants in size, but in their nature, colour, and form, are bulls. Great is their strength, and great their speed: they spare neither man nor beast when once they have caught sight of them.” (Quote from W2000 3/1)
Quoting from an archaic and incorrect translation 400 years old to try to prove the Bible teaches mythical beasts exist, is disingenuous, IMO. This same twisting of the facts is evident in your other claims as well.

 

[rusra02]

Because it is in an influential book that was compiled a few hundred years after the beginning of its religion that came from an ancient Jewish text. We also all know of Heracles but we don't consider him factual.

There is no historical evidence. There are literary accounts.

There are eyewitnesses testimony, recorded in the Scriptures. Further, "Anthropologists have collected as many as 270 flood legends from nearly all tribes and nations. “The flood story is found throughout the world,” says scholar Claus Westermann. “Like the creation narrative, it is part of our basic cultural heritage. It is truly astonishing: everywhere on earth we find stories of a great primeval flood.” The explanation? Says expositor Enrico Galbiati: “The insistent presence of a flood tradition in different and widely separated peoples is a sign of the historical reality of the fact that lies at the base of such traditions.” More important to Christians than scholarly observations, however, is the knowledge that Jesus himself spoke of the Flood as an actual event in the history of mankind.—Luke 17:26, 27"(w01 11/15)
Scientists admit the earth has been subject to great floods in the past. One such flood is said to have occurred in the northwestern U.S. with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

There are eyewitnesses testimony, recorded in the Scriptures. Further, "Anthropologists have collected as many as 270 flood legends from nearly all tribes and nations. “The flood story is found throughout the world,” says scholar Claus Westermann. “Like the creation narrative, it is part of our basic cultural heritage. It is truly astonishing: everywhere on earth we find stories of a great primeval flood.” The explanation? Says expositor Enrico Galbiati: “The insistent presence of a flood tradition in different and widely separated peoples is a sign of the historical reality of the fact that lies at the base of such traditions.” More important to Christians than scholarly observations, however, is the knowledge that Jesus himself spoke of the Flood as an actual event in the history of mankind.—Luke 17:26, 27"(w01 11/15)
Scientists admit the earth has been subject to great floods in the past. One such flood is said to have occurred in the northwestern U.S. with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.

There are no eyewitness testimonies in the bible. Noah never wrote a book of the bible and he and his family, if the story was to be taken as true, would have been the only eye witnesses. So no...not even by your own account are there eye-witnesses.

Yes the concept of flood stories are quite interesting. More interestingly they exist all around the world. Meaning they didn't die out. The common consensus is that they have large flood stories because it is a common fear and at some point or another there have been large scale floods (local only) in most populated areas near the sea and other bodies of water. In fact Egypt had annual floods for example.

There is a far off theory that during the end of the last ice age there were humans who were living on the coasts and the rising sea levels could have prompted some rather quick flooding of different living areas along the coasts. We have found several cities under water that should not be there even by taking into account the recent geological events that could have submerged them.

This seems a far better explanation than there being an actual global flood.

 

[Ouroboros]

Amen. We also have to realize that science is an extremely useful tool, but extremely inadequate alone.

It serves its purpose. It's not intended to answer all questions. Some people might think so, but it doesn't.

 

[Etritonakin]

It serves its purpose. It's not intended to answer all questions. Some people might think so, but it doesn't.

I think it is pretty cool.

 

[Etritonakin]

Obviously you haven't a clue as to what cud is.

We're not talking about different words that identify the same subject . We're talking about a word that misidentifies a subject; like calling a steelworker a woodworker, or calling an apple an acorn. It's simply false. The Bible unequivocally says that coneys (hares) chew cud, and coneys don't even produce cud. The Bible really flubbed up.

This is cute, and incredibly ignorant---although it's clear why it's presented as such; trying to pass off feces as cud. Here's an old diagram I came across showing the difference in their routes.

And here's a more detailed illustration of how cattle ruminate

Notice how the cud never goes through the omasum, abomasum, and intestines. AND the cow never eats its poop.


And how hares preform refection

Notice that the food is never passed back up to the mouth for further mastication. AND the rabbit does eat its poop. As for confusing one for the other, as some apologists have claimed, even a three year-old could set you straight.

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.




Nope, because in 1 Kings 4:27 it tells us the same thing as 2 Chronicals 9:25, "And those officers provided victuals for king Solomon, and for all that came unto king Solomon's table, every man in his month; they let nothing be lacking."

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.



Read this before and am still not impressed. What would be the reason for describing one measurement to a certain point and then describing another measurement to another point without differentiating the two?And not even giving a hint. It would be stupid. It's like saying a building is 20 feet high and 25 feet tall.

NOPE, THE BIBLE SIMPLY BLEW THIS ONE.

You have great points, but you are still wrong.

 

[viole]

There are eyewitnesses testimony, recorded in the Scriptures. Further, "Anthropologists have collected as many as 270 flood legends from nearly all tribes and nations. “The flood story is found throughout the world,” says scholar Claus Westermann. “Like the creation narrative, it is part of our basic cultural heritage. It is truly astonishing: everywhere on earth we find stories of a great primeval flood.” The explanation? Says expositor Enrico Galbiati: “The insistent presence of a flood tradition in different and widely separated peoples is a sign of the historical reality of the fact that lies at the base of such traditions.”

How could native Australians possibly know of the global flood if they all drowned at that time.? I guess from Noah descent. But the question is then: how can their native god diverge so massively from the god of Noah? I think it would be silly for Noah and family to talk about the flood and not the properties and expectations of the very agent who caused it.

Isn't maybe more likely that many people have a flood tradition because humans tend to live near rivers, lakes and oceans which, sometime, cause (local) devastation that are remembered by the survivors?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Etritonakin]

Gods can be as divergent as individuals. Even in ancient Israel -when God dealt with people more directly (or at least they believed he did, from one perspective) ,there were still many who worshiped many other gods.

 

[Skwim]

I really hope you are just trying to wear me out.

No. Just trying to educate you.

 

[Skwim]

The word "unicorn" does not appear in the original Hebrew text. It is an English word.

You mean like all the other words in the English language Bibles? Golly, who would have thought.

A quick check of modern translations show the Hebrew word translated "unicorns" in the KJV of 1611 is the wild ox or bull, now extinct.

Did you check out the KJV, AKJV, KJ21, BRG, GNV, JUB, WYC Bibles? They all call it a unicorn (the DRA calls it a rhinoceros, and the YLT calls it a reem---a "legendary monolithic monstrosity"). Go figure.

Quoting from an archaic and incorrect translation 400 years old to try to prove the Bible teaches mythical beasts exist, is disingenuous, IMO. This same twisting of the facts is evident in your other claims as well.

As if ignoring those modern Bibles that have no problem with "unicorn" isn't.

As I've said before, the Christian religion is so neat because it gives its adherents so much to pick and choose from. If one passage doesn't suit one's beliefs, another one, or even another Bible version, probably will.

 

[Skwim]

You have great points, but you are still wrong.

So eating poop is the same as not eating poop. And 4,000 = 40,000. And pi = 3. Who would have thought.

 

[McBell]

Don't mean to be sarcastic, but yah I do....

The recorded references to catastrophic floods throughout history -including the bible? ...As opposed to other sorts of evidence?

Where are these recorded references all for the same time of catastrophic flood?
Wait, who recorded them?
According to the Biblical account, Noah and his family were the sole survivor of the Biblical world wide flood....

 

[Etritonakin]

Where are these recorded references all for the same time of catastrophic flood?
Wait, who recorded them?
According to the Biblical account, Noah and his family were the sole survivor of the Biblical world wide flood....

Like I said...... I hope to do more research later about what was written when and what was supposed to have occurred when, but such a flood would certainly be a topic of oral discussion/storytelling for many generations afterward -and could be recorded later.

That is not to say it could be the only source of such a story.

 

[FreedomIsNatural]

If you are willing to beilive this frankly highly unlikely story to be true, then why not the claims of Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormons, or the claims of other relgions?