Where do Proponents Of Intelligent Design Propose the Designer Came From?

[dust1n]

This is Dawkins central argument, it has been called the worst argument against God in the history of western scholarship.

1. Things that begin to exist must have a cause.
2. God is eternal and begin to exist.

Conclusion: God does not require a cause.

That would be a great argument if 1 or 2 were provable assertions.

1. Things that exist must have an explanation of their existence, either within themselves or external to themselves.
2. The universe does not have a natural explanation for it's existence.
3. The universes explanation is external to it's self and is not natural.
4. God contains his own explanation for his existence.

Conclusions: the universes explanation is supernatural (beyond nature) and God does not require external explanations to account for his existence.

I don't see how anyone could claim any of the 4 premises to be true.

1. An infinite regression of causation is logically impossible.
2. The universe must an uncaused first cause (which from the argument transcends the natural realm).
3. God is an uncaused first cause which transcends the natural realm.

Conclusion: God is the best explanation for the chain of causation and it's necessary uncaused first cause.

3 more premises which are supposedly true and taken for granted, despite the fact they seem to be claims with no actual basis.


Just as an example:

Claim: 1. An infinite regression of causation is logically impossible.

logic - Is infinite regress of logical causation possible? Is infinite regress of logical causation necessary? - Philosophy Stack Exchange

"Logic itself — which I will take to mean classical propositional logic — has very little to say about time, or about infinite chains of consequences, either extending forwards or backwards. Indeed, it has nothing at all to say. Logic is merely a tool which we use to investigate topics, but anything it has to say on the subject are from premisses which we supply. So what is logically possible depends on the premisses we adopt.

Obviously, if we assume that there cannot be infinite regresses, we will conclude that infinite regresses are impossible; and if we assume that everything must have a cause, then infinite regress is necessary. Boldly asserting our assumptions is not a form of logical deduction, however. So we must try to avoid doing so if we wish to consider logical possibility or necessity."

 

[Skwim]

No that was a typing error. It should have been.

1. Things that begin to exist must have a cause.
2. God (the biblical concept of God) is eternal and uncaused.

Conclusion the biblical God requires no cause and therefor demands for one are not only absurd but incoherent.

Okay *sigh* here's how it parses out.

1. Things that begin to exist must have a cause.
2. God (the biblical concept of God) is eternal and uncaused.
___________________________________________________
Conclusion: the biblical God requires no cause
​

Substituting, we have

P: Things that begin to exist

M: Must have a cause (-M: must not have a cause)

S: God is eternal​

So configuring your argument in syllogistic terms we have

Premise 1: All P are M

Premise 2: All S are -M
________________________
Conclusion: All S are -M​

See anything wrong here? Probably not, so let me substitute different terms

1. All Pigs are Fat

2. All people named Sequim are not fat
______________________________________
C. All people named Sequim are not fat
​

Think this is what is taught in logic 101? mmmmmmmmmNo need to answer.


All of which tells me that everything else you've tried to put into this form of argument aren't worth my time, which is why I haven't paid any attention to it.

However, I did read part of your second post. At least this much of it.

I did not say my previous experience served me well. I said it made plain the errors in the response I commented on.

No you didn't, but I said "your decades of experience in philosophical studies have not served you well at all." The "decades of experience in philosophical studies" being your claim to fame.
I would have said the same of someone who said they had "decades of experience in riding a bike" and then fell off every time they got on one. No difference. "Your decades of experience in riding a bike have not served you well at all."

Get the message?

 

[dust1n]

Okay *sigh* here's how it parses out.

Think this is what is taught in logic 101? mmmmmmmmmNo need to answer.

Ugh. I was wrong to insinuate his first argument was a great argument aside from disagreeable premises.

 

[FreedomIsNatural]

A true follower of Christ would have Christ for a moral compass -some believe they do, but do not -but what you are saying is essentially correct -as written.....

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So..... If a non- "Christian" does something right and a "Christian" does something wrong, it is acknowledged as such.

The bible does not tell ME to stone anyone.

If you would like to post some verses about what you said, I will explain more clearly -not sure what you are talking about.

Meanwhile.... notice that the woman who was to be stoned (recorded in the New Testament) was to be stoned for adultery, according to the judgments for infractions under the OT law -which is sometimes referred to as "Mosaic" -given to Moses, etc....
Christ -having authority -changed the judgment (concerning stoning), not the law (concerning adultery) (and it is similar with "alternative spirituality" or "witchcraft").

The law consists of commandments -which do not change -and judgments, which do change over time based on various things.

Under the Mosaic law -in ancient Israel -a "Wiccan" might indeed be stoned. That was to keep a carnally/physically-minded Israel free of such things in very real terms.

The old judgments were quite harsh (though those stoned will eventually be resurrected), but were just one step in a very lengthy process. The New covenant shifted focus from keeping a physical nation free of certain things, to individuals keeping themselves free of certain things -but the old judgments (never perfect and never meant to be) prepared a people for the new and laid the foundation thereof.

It may not make sense to all, but God knows what he is doing and will accomplish it regardless.

To address your signature.......

"A loving diety respects and rewards intelligence and freethinking.

An evil one punishes them."

That is actually correct. Intelligence and freethinking are the whole point of God creating creators.
However..... a loving deity acknowledges the potential for intelligence and freethinking to be misused, and to cause chaos and ruin -and therefore will not allow everyone to do everything they want to everything and everyone, but corrects us all so that we will do the right thing to everything and everyone.

A loving deity acknowledges that we are ignorant -and he is not. We are newbs -and he made everything we can know (except that which he caused us to be able to create which is new to him).

A loving deity calls us on our imperfections so we can become perfect.

The present world is full of intelligent people freely thinking -and it will end with our complete destruction unless it is prevented -and it will be.

Intelligence and free thinking must acknowledge the truth -which includes God's existence and rightful authority -and the need for universal adherence to the law of love, which is based on the true nature of all things.

Only then can we create eternally in peace and happiness without creating conflict and misery.

It is understandable that many intelligent free thinkers do not yet know what is actually true in this regard, but that will change in time.

God has dealt more directly with men in the past, and it did not make much difference due to our inexperience, etc., so he has allowed our misguided intelligence and free thinking to play itself out to its logical but tragic end (though directing it to a specific end which actually minimizes its effects) -after which we will have our individual experiences and the overall human experience to reference... An experience base from which to discern that God's instruction and government is indeed necessary.

1: In the bible eating from the tree of knowledge was forbidden (very open to new knowledge).

2: If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

 

[Etritonakin]

1: In the bible eating from the tree of knowledge was forbidden (very open to new knowledge).

2: If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

1: Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL was forbidden.
God wanted us to know ONLY GOOD.
God offered access to ALL OF HIS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY -the tree of LIFE.
The tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL led to LESS actual knowledge -and certainly less wisdom.
Whereas God could have put us on a fast track to all things if he was certain we would not misuse such knowledge and power, the slow and difficult track was chosen.
It is not about NEW knowledge, but INCORRECT knowledge leading to misery and destruction.

God can actually instantaneously give abilities and talents...... (A bit like The Matrix or the Krell learning machine from "Forbidden Planet" -if you are into sci-fi )

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

2: That judgment was indeed given to ancient Israel -but is no longer in effect.
It served its temporary purpose, and those who died in that manner will be raised again.

What God would have us do has not changed (keeping the commandments and observing biblical holy days, etc.), but judgments concerning what to do if wrong things were done have changed.

Here are a few verses on the subject if you are interested......

Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.40

(An eye for an eye, etc. was a similar judgment under the Mosaic law in the OT)

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 7:11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law 13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14For it isevident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest

 

[Skwim]

1: Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL was forbidden.
God wanted us to know ONLY GOOD.

So how was man suppose to get this knowledge of Good? Seemingly, god bound it up with the knowledge of evil for some reason. Got any idea of why he did this?

God offered access to ALL OF HIS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY -the tree of LIFE.

Where does it say that the tree of life is "[god's] perfect knowledge and ability"?

The tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL led to LESS actual knowledge -and certainly less wisdom.

So why did the evil part trump the good? Sounds like god set up man to fail.

Whereas God could have put us on a fast track to all things if he was certain we would not misuse such knowledge and power, the slow and difficult track was chosen.

So god was uncertain? Isn't he omniscient, and would know for certain?

It is not about NEW knowledge, but INCORRECT knowledge leading to misery and destruction.

What it?

God can actually instantaneously give abilities and talents...... (A bit like The Matrix or the Krell learning machine from "Forbidden Planet" -if you are into sci-fi )

So what? Shouldn't we expect he can do anything he wants?

 

[Etritonakin]

So how was man suppose to get this knowledge of Good? Seemingly, god bound it up with the knowledge of evil for some reason. Got any idea of why he did this?

Where does it say that the tree of life is "[god's] perfect knowledge and ability"?

So why did the evil part trump the good? Sounds like god set up man to fail.

So god was uncertain? Isn't he omniscient, and would know for certain?

What it?

So what? Shouldn't we expect he can do anything he wants?

The answers are in there -and they are totally awesome -if you are interested.
I don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't seem that you are interested in an actual discussion of the subject.

Since I have a bit of time....

Man could have asked God.
That's not what God did.

Many places throughout the bible. Here a little, there a little.

Evil has not trumped good. God set man up to learn -but that did include the potential for making bad choices. The process is not complete. There has been no failure, as such. What was intended will be accomplished.
Satan, then Eve, did not know God from Adam (pun intended). God gave good instruction, but experience will cause all to understand that it was indeed good -and then we will know God.
As written....
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things (emphasis mine)

At the core of recreating/reproducing himself -creating gods -the children of God -is the ability for another to do something unknown to God.

It is the subject being discussed (the tree not "of knowledge", but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.)

Yes -except that which he has said he will not do.

 

[FreedomIsNatural]

The answers are in there -and they are totally awesome -if you are interested.
I don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't seem that you are interested in an actual discussion of the subject.

Since I have a bit of time....

Man could have asked God.
That's not what God did.

Many places throughout the bible. Here a little, there a little.

Evil has not trumped good. God set man up to learn -but that did include the potential for making bad choices. The process is not complete. There has been no failure, as such. What was intended will be accomplished.
Satan, then Eve, did not know God from Adam (pun intended). God gave good instruction, but experience will cause all to understand that it was indeed good -and then we will know God.
As written....
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things (emphasis mine)

At the core of recreating/reproducing himself -creating gods -the children of God -is the ability for another to do something unknown to God.

It is the subject being discussed (the tree not "of knowledge", but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.)

Yes -except that which he has said he will not do.

Apparently "Good" is stoning pagans to death and "Evil" is allowing them to live among you.

 

[Skwim]

First of all, because you haven't directly associated your responses to a specific statement of mine it's very difficult to know what you're replying to. Try putting the remarks of others in {quote] [/quote} marks as I have done here.

The answers are in there -and they are totally awesome -if you are interested.
I don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't seem that you are interested in an actual discussion of the subject.

In my opinion you made some pretty unsubstantiated assertions, So all I'm doing is trying to find out how you arrived at them.

Man could have asked God.

And why would he? How would he know enough to even ask the question?

That's not what God did.

I assume this is in response to my "Seemingly, god bound it up with the knowledge of evil for some reason." But you yourself said that the tree of knowledge was one of good knowledge and evil knowledge. So how would one eat the good knowledge part without eating the evil knowledge part?

Many places throughout the bible. Here a little, there a little.

One or two will suffice.

Evil has not trumped good. God set man up to learn -but that did include the potential for making bad choices.

But if no one ate the apple then good would be the reigning state of affairs with evil never raising its head. But that's not how it turned out. The apple was eaten and evil (the sinfulness of man?) came to dominate our lives. It trumped the all pervasive good that would have filled our lives.

The process is not complete. There has been no failure, as such. What was intended will be accomplished.

How nice. So what's god waiting for, for billions of others to spend their lives suffering in sin before he completes the process? Why the big stall?

Satan, then Eve, did not know God from Adam (pun intended). God gave good instruction, but experience will cause all to understand that it was indeed good -and then we will know God.

Are you saying that eating the apple was a good thing, better than not eating it?

 

[1robin]

The issue is that the "uncaused first cause" is the only philosophical or logical conclusion we have come to. Steeped in our ignorance we don't even know if this itself is a necessary component. But as of right now it seems to logically follow. However that is the extent of our capability to assume. As this already requires us to take metaphysical leaps in order to cover this "impossibility". In your case the entity of god is an exception given a name. You take the problem and now there is a "being" of sorts whose whole existence hinges on being an exception to something that should be impossible.

1. All things that begin to exist have causes.
2. No known infinite regression of causations exists or even seems possible.
3. The universe does not contain it's own cause.
4. The cause and/or explanation of the universe transcends the universe. It is non-natural.
5. This non natural uncaused first cause has certain attributes (non-special, non-material, independent of time, the ability to choose, etc........)
6. We have a description of God given by men who would have no idea what needed to be faked to me the philosophy of cause and effect laid out many years later.

I believe God is the best candidate for that necessary uncaused first cause.

I do not see any impossibilities in that argument that need overcoming. Perhaps it is not true but it is certainly possible and IMO likely. The absolute necessity of having an uncaused first cause is absolute, though in our own experience would be rare. Rare does not even hint at impossibility.

I think we are in agreement at this point in time. There are disagreements that I am overlooking such as the "cause" would have to be intelligent or any other such trait that I don't think would have to be necessary except it is external to the known universe. That is the only trait that we would "need" in terms of what would be required. I have heard you make arguments for these secondary traits but I don't recall ever being convinced of them. But moving past this for now.

The ultimate cause of the universe had to precede space time (timelessness), the creator of matter would also have to be (non-material), the cause of space would have to be bon-special, etc...... He does not have to be omniscient or omnipotent but what the creator must fit fits neatly into those characteristics while nothing else known does.

The force, entity or "cause" of this uncaused first cause can have any set of traits that we actually want it to have in any flared up description but we only need it to have one that I have already listed. What about the god of the "bible" makes it so? What of the Jewish version of god without Jesus? Or the Islamic concept of Allah? Or what of any other monotheistic god system? Or what of polytheistic or even pantheistic god systems? What specifically about the bible would indicate that this external entity/force/cause was specific to this religion?

The nature of the cause can be inferred from the nature of the effect. Looking at skyscrapers I do not think the color blue built them, looking as computers I do not think a box of fruit loops caused it, etc.... Also most other God are created God's and do not count. Leaving only a few as possible creators left. I believe Yahweh is by far the best candidate for about a thousand reasons.

And of course I have already demonstrated how the universe itself could have this property or could have once had this property. You said you were going to tell me how this was flawed but I think you forgot to get to that point in your last post. I will give you this chance now before I go further on it.

Your right I think I did. Can you copy and post in your next reply exactly what you meant by the universe containing it's own cause? I think I remember my argument with it but want another chance to see it fully explained before I post it.

 

[Etritonakin]

Apparently "Good" is stoning pagans to death and "Evil" is allowing them to live among you.

Actually, both are good AND evil -and would not have happened if man continued to obey God from the beginning.

However, it was inevitable -or almost, at the very least -that some angels, and then some people, would explore other options.......

Hence demons, the paganism, etc. -human history, etc.,....
And all of that was factored into the plan.

Once man decided to explore other options, it created undesirable situations which would not otherwise be (though realizing they are undesirable takes experience).

Then, God began a process of allowing for experience, but also managing risk, short-tracking experience, and bringing people to certain realizations faster than they would have come to them alone.

Actually, stoning pagans to death was never "good" -and is technically "evil" -but it was a temporary judgment which had the desired overall effect (bough it was never meant to "work" perfectly).

That's the whole concept behind the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -it's a mixed bag. It is good (a very awesome and comlex system which requires understanding which is beyond us to maintain initially -and power to maintain it which is beyond us eternally) which has been fragmented, confused, neglected, blinded, etc.

To reference one who wrote of the Wiccan Rede.....

"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, An it harm none do what ye will"

Doing what we will so long as it harms none is actually a perfect way to go about things.
However, God is the only one knowledgeable enough to actually know what will TRULY do harm -in the short and long term -and is the only one with enough power and understanding to repair all harm that has ever been done AND instruct everyone who has ever lived in the ways which avoid all harm AFTER he has raised the all from the dead.

God gave perfect instruction in Eden, and would have continued to do so.
At that point, doubt was always a possibility, because we are new to all things.
Only after experience can the potential for doubt be removed -and only then can perfection become possible for us. God allowed us our choices, and will be there at the end to repair the distruction we cause by them. Then we will be ready to listen.

Without God, we are subject to various other personalities (human and spirit) with various amounts of power, various levels of understanding and various intentions and motives -some pure, some not, some good intentions with wrong actions, some right actions meant to deceive and mislead, getting some thing right in a world headed for overall self-destruction, anyway, etc.... In other words......

GOOD AND EVIL

God loves us enough to give us the ultimate reality check.
Death is nothing compared to eternal life in misery. Death is a better option.
In order for eternal life to be wonderfully happy, perfect rules must be followed and perfect government must be respected.

Stoning people was an extremely harsh judgment (which is no longer in effect), but if you are able to see that "alternative spiritualities" would lead to eternal misery (basically this messed up world going on forever -with things being able to be destroyed and people being able to me miserable, hateful, cruel, etc -but not die), then you can begin to understand how such a judgment was not perfect, but understandable given the circumstances (and it also helps to understand that those stoned to death will be raised again -and their death will become a non-issue. Not only can death be reversed, but all other harm. More on this next post).

The tree of life allows for "new knowledge" because it allows us to create things which have not existed before -and so then can be known -but without things getting extremely messed up. The government of God (the one who created us and our environment and knows all about it all) would allow for the happiness and well-being of all AND allow for infinite creation.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil leads to "new knowledge" which is incorrect, disorganized and destructive because it is shortsighted and not correctly governed, etc. -because none but God is capable of correctly governing all due to his inherent position and nature.

Many do not realize that God can indeed purpose evil in some circumstances -but toward our eventual perfection. It is much like a parent allowing children to experience adversity -but on a much larger scale, and from the perspective of one able to take a life and give it again.

He will do what will make us Gods -not what will make us comfortable men.
If he did not, we would never be truly comfortable, anyway.
Afterward, we will be quite happy and comfortable.
When he punishes, it is because we need it -and he loves us enough to not let use experience the full chaotic misery which would result from our own ways -which often seem "enlightened" at first.

 

[Etritonakin]

(Please note edits above. Also... I know it is a bit off subject, but it is to answer a question by another poster)

WHY DID GOD HAVE PEOPLE STONE OTHER PEOPLE TO DEATH?

Basically, such harsh judgments were a deterrent, and a means to literally keep sin out of Israel by removing the sinner.

DID IT WORK?

No -and yes. It -in itself -did not bring Israel to perfection -but it was not meant to.
It was a first step in a process of bringing everyone to perfection (even those stoned to death) -a process which is not complete until after death -after some things which happen after death -and after all human history (as declared from the beginning) has been accomplished.

IT DID NOT MAKE ISRAEL PERFECT -ISRAEL REJECTED GOD -HOW WILL IT HELP MAKE EVERYONE PERFECT?

What it did do was keep Israel free from other influences long enough for God to work with some people who were willing to follow his laws. This does not mean they viewed those harsh judgments under the law as "perfect" -but they understood that God would provide somehow, and make all things right in the end.
They understood that obeying God's law produced good -and that removing those bad influences made it less likely that some would be taught error which could lead to their death -or spiritual harm and misery.
It was not an enjoyable thing for any -these were their family members and countrymen being put to death.
However, it kept certain influences from the population long enough to work with those willing -and also to lay the foundation which would prepare many of that people for what was to happen next. It allowed them to become of a certain overall mindset which was necessary for the next stage of the overall plan -the new covenant -which was not focused on keeping a physical nation free from sin in the letter of the law, but focused on many individuals of that nation -then beyond -keeping spiritual sin from themselves -from their own spirit and so from the world -by coupling their spirit with God's own holy spirit, which empowered them to truly understand spiritual righteousness and overcome spiritual sin.

That all would not have been possible if sin had not been literally kept from among them in the past. People have to be of a certain mindset before being granted a godly spirit of "power, and of love, and of a sound mind" would do any good.

SO.... SOME GET STONED TO DEATH BECAUSE GOD SAID SO, AND LATER SOME WHO DO THE SAME THINGS GET LOVED AND FORGIVEN BECAUSE GOD SAID SO. HOW IS THAT FAIR? IS GOD INDECISIVE?

It is important to note that God is not calling all of humanity during this time. What he is doing is making up the "first fruits" who will be a literal government and priesthood on earth under God and Christ when Christ returns.
What will be set up later as a result of what has been WILL be able to bring all to perfection, when they are resurrected into that different situation -having a different mindset partly due to seeing that situation is a reality -that God is a reality. Some are first, then they are used to bring the others along -including those once stoned to death.
Rev 5:9-10
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The old covenant and then the new covenant were both different stages of the plan.
Once those first fruits (remember they chose to obey God and others chose to do otherwise -though many who think or say they follow God actually do not -and others chose various other alternatives or never had a choice due to ignorance of God and were not yet called) are made immortal and begin to reign on earth with Christ -and the remnants of the earth's human population (after being decimated by what would essentially called WWIII) repopulate during the next thousand years -the next stage of the plan will be accomplished.

At that time -after the thousand years -every "man" since Adam who has ever lived will be raised from the dead and judged according to their works.
That includes all who were stoned to death, regular people, villains, etc.... -basically, everyone who was not "in Christ" at his return and made immortal at the first resurrection.
Some will receive life then -some will be saved "though as by fire" if necessary -and those who utterly refuse can be completely destroyed in "Gehenna" -the "lake of fire".
There is hope for all who choose it and are willing to do good and to respect the necessary government of God.
Then all will live under God, Christ and the government he created of men and then made immortal -but it will not be as human governments. God's government will serve -it will not see to its own needs and wants at the expense of the governed -it will eternally be of benefit to them

What has been in the past was necessary for that future to be possible.

We chose -and would have chosen, and essentially did continue to choose -to go our own ways, which inevitably made a mess of things. Therefore, God had to make necessary -sometimes very harsh -judgments to bring all things again to order -and God will not only bring all of us back around to do the right things, he will raise us from the dead and repair all damage -even renewing and resurfacing the earth again.

Then we can create throughout the universe without conflict and misery.

We will TRULY do as we will so long as it harms no one -knowing that the government of God is necessary for that to be true.
Then the former things will no longer be called to mind or remembered.

All will have everything eternally -and be quite happy -and what was lost in this time will be insignificant.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The following is addressed specifically to those of Israel who have not known God or lost hope in God, but the same generally applies to all. (Some are raised human again before eventually becoming immortal)
Ezekiel 37
…12"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13"Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.14"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

So -while it is understandable that everyone is in their present state of understanding, attitude, belief and being, things will happen to make all see things correctly.
We don't have to understand it -we don't have to like it -we certainly aren't going to like much of what happens in the meantime -but it is what is happening, and it will happen.

As written... "It is an irksome task men have been given to do under the sun",
but in the end we will all understand that no alternative is worth comparing to the results.
It will be awesome -and totally worth it all.
It is understandable that some do not believe it now, but it will still happen to them.

 

[FreedomIsNatural]

Actually, both are good AND evil -and would not have happened if man continued to obey God from the beginning.

However, it was inevitable -or almost, at the very least -that some angels, and then some people, would explore other options.......

Hence demons, the paganism, etc. -human history, etc.,....
And all of that was factored into the plan.

Once man decided to explore other options, it created undesirable situations which would not otherwise be (though realizing they are undesirable takes experience).

Then, God began a process of allowing for experience, but also managing risk, short-tracking experience, and bringing people to certain realizations faster than they would have come to them alone.

Actually, stoning pagans to death was never "good" -and is technically "evil" -but it was a temporary judgment which had the desired overall effect (bough it was never meant to "work" perfectly).

That's the whole concept behind the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -it's a mixed bag. It is good (a very awesome and comlex system which requires understanding which is beyond us to maintain initially -and power to maintain it which is beyond us eternally) which has been fragmented, confused, neglected, blinded, etc.

To reference one who wrote of the Wiccan Rede.....

"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, An it harm none do what ye will"

Doing what we will so long as it harms none is actually a perfect way to go about things.
However, God is the only one knowledgeable enough to actually know what will TRULY do harm -in the short and long term -and is the only one with enough power and understanding to repair all harm that has ever been done AND instruct everyone who has ever lived in the ways which avoid all harm AFTER he has raised the all from the dead.

God gave perfect instruction in Eden, and would have continued to do so.
At that point, doubt was always a possibility, because we are new to all things.
Only after experience can the potential for doubt be removed -and only then can perfection become possible for us. God allowed us our choices, and will be there at the end to repair the distruction we cause by them. Then we will be ready to listen.

Without God, we are subject to various other personalities (human and spirit) with various amounts of power, various levels of understanding and various intentions and motives -some pure, some not, some good intentions with wrong actions, some right actions meant to deceive and mislead, getting some thing right in a world headed for overall self-destruction, anyway, etc.... In other words......

GOOD AND EVIL

God loves us enough to give us the ultimate reality check.
Death is nothing compared to eternal life in misery. Death is a better option.
In order for eternal life to be wonderfully happy, perfect rules must be followed and perfect government must be respected.

Stoning people was an extremely harsh judgment (which is no longer in effect), but if you are able to see that "alternative spiritualities" would lead to eternal misery (basically this messed up world going on forever -with things being able to be destroyed and people being able to me miserable, hateful, cruel, etc -but not die), then you can begin to understand how such a judgment was not perfect, but understandable given the circumstances (and it also helps to understand that those stoned to death will be raised again -and their death will become a non-issue. Not only can death be reversed, but all other harm. More on this next post).

The tree of life allows for "new knowledge" because it allows us to create things which have not existed before -and so then can be known -but without things getting extremely messed up. The government of God (the one who created us and our environment and knows all about it all) would allow for the happiness and well-being of all AND allow for infinite creation.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil leads to "new knowledge" which is incorrect, disorganized and destructive because it is shortsighted and not correctly governed, etc. -because none but God is capable of correctly governing all due to his inherent position and nature.

Many do not realize that God can indeed purpose evil in some circumstances -but toward our eventual perfection. It is much like a parent allowing children to experience adversity -but on a much larger scale, and from the perspective of one able to take a life and give it again.

He will do what will make us Gods -not what will make us comfortable men.
If he did not, we would never be truly comfortable, anyway.
Afterward, we will be quite happy and comfortable.
When he punishes, it is because we need it -and he loves us enough to not let use experience the full chaotic misery which would result from our own ways -which often seem "enlightened" at first.

Wait a minute.... You said human sins caused Demons?

......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

You do not know your own theology, let alone anyone else's or scientific facts.

I think you need to learn more about your own relgion before you try to use it to debunk science.

 

[FreedomIsNatural]

(Please note edits above. Also... I know it is a bit off subject, but it is to answer a question by another poster)

WHY DID GOD HAVE PEOPLE STONE OTHER PEOPLE TO DEATH?

Basically, such harsh judgments were a deterrent, and a means to literally keep sin out of Israel by removing the sinner.

DID IT WORK?

No -and yes. It -in itself -did not bring Israel to perfection -but it was not meant to.
It was a first step in a process of bringing everyone to perfection (even those stoned to death) -a process which is not complete until after death -after some things which happen after death -and after all human history (as declared from the beginning) has been accomplished.

IT DID NOT MAKE ISRAEL PERFECT -ISRAEL REJECTED GOD -HOW WILL IT HELP MAKE EVERYONE PERFECT?

What it did do was keep Israel free from other influences long enough for God to work with some people who were willing to follow his laws. This does not mean they viewed those harsh judgments under the law as "perfect" -but they understood that God would provide somehow, and make all things right in the end.
They understood that obeying God's law produced good -and that removing those bad influences made it less likely that some would be taught error which could lead to their death -or spiritual harm and misery.
It was not an enjoyable thing for any -these were their family members and countrymen being put to death.
However, it kept certain influences from the population long enough to work with those willing -and also to lay the foundation which would prepare many of that people for what was to happen next. It allowed them to become of a certain overall mindset which was necessary for the next stage of the overall plan -the new covenant -which was not focused on keeping a physical nation free from sin in the letter of the law, but focused on many individuals of that nation -then beyond -keeping spiritual sin from themselves -from their own spirit and so from the world -by coupling their spirit with God's own holy spirit, which empowered them to truly understand spiritual righteousness and overcome spiritual sin.

That all would not have been possible if sin had not been literally kept from among them in the past. People have to be of a certain mindset before being granted a godly spirit of "power, and of love, and of a sound mind" would do any good.

SO.... SOME GET STONED TO DEATH BECAUSE GOD SAID SO, AND LATER SOME WHO DO THE SAME THINGS GET LOVED AND FORGIVEN BECAUSE GOD SAID SO. HOW IS THAT FAIR? IS GOD INDECISIVE?

It is important to note that God is not calling all of humanity during this time. What he is doing is making up the "first fruits" who will be a literal government and priesthood on earth under God and Christ when Christ returns.
What will be set up later as a result of what has been WILL be able to bring all to perfection, when they are resurrected into that different situation -having a different mindset partly due to seeing that situation is a reality -that God is a reality. Some are first, then they are used to bring the others along -including those once stoned to death.
Rev 5:9-10
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The old covenant and then the new covenant were both different stages of the plan.
Once those first fruits (remember they chose to obey God and others chose to do otherwise -though many who think or say they follow God actually do not -and others chose various other alternatives or never had a choice due to ignorance of God and were not yet called) are made immortal and begin to reign on earth with Christ -and the remnants of the earth's human population (after being decimated by what would essentially called WWIII) repopulate during the next thousand years -the next stage of the plan will be accomplished.

At that time -after the thousand years -every "man" since Adam who has ever lived will be raised from the dead and judged according to their works.
That includes all who were stoned to death, regular people, villains, etc.... -basically, everyone who was not "in Christ" at his return and made immortal at the first resurrection.
Some will receive life then -some will be saved "though as by fire" if necessary -and those who utterly refuse can be completely destroyed in "Gehenna" -the "lake of fire".
There is hope for all who choose it and are willing to do good and to respect the necessary government of God.
Then all will live under God, Christ and the government he created of men and then made immortal -but it will not be as human governments. God's government will serve -it will not see to its own needs and wants at the expense of the governed -it will eternally be of benefit to them

What has been in the past was necessary for that future to be possible.

We chose -and would have chosen, and essentially did continue to choose -to go our own ways, which inevitably made a mess of things. Therefore, God had to make necessary -sometimes very harsh -judgments to bring all things again to order -and God will not only bring all of us back around to do the right things, he will raise us from the dead and repair all damage -even renewing and resurfacing the earth again.

Then we can create throughout the universe without conflict and misery.

We will TRULY do as we will so long as it harms no one -knowing that the government of God is necessary for that to be true.
Then the former things will no longer be called to mind or remembered.

All will have everything eternally -and be quite happy -and what was lost in this time will be insignificant.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The following is addressed specifically to those of Israel who have not known God or lost hope in God, but the same generally applies to all. (Some are raised human again before eventually becoming immortal)
Ezekiel 37
…12"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13"Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.14"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

So -while it is understandable that everyone is in their present state of understanding, attitude, belief and being, things will happen to make all see things correctly.
We don't have to understand it -we don't have to like it -we certainly aren't going to like much of what happens in the meantime -but it is what is happening, and it will happen.

As written... "It is an irksome task men have been given to do under the sun",
but in the end we will all understand that no alternative is worth comparing to the results.
It will be awesome -and totally worth it all.
It is understandable that some do not believe it now, but it will still happen to them.

So why would Yahweh/Jehovah make it to where not beilieving in them without proof was a sin?

 

[Etritonakin]

Wait a minute.... You said human sins caused Demons?

......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

You do not know your own theology, let alone anyone else's or scientific facts.

I think you need to learn more about your own relgion before you try to use it to debunk science.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo

You keep telling me I said things I did not say.

.."that some angels, and then some people, would explore other options"

Sooooooo first, some of the angels sinned (those we call demons) and then some people sinned (where there is no law, sin is not imputed -so any humanoids before Adam are not important to the subject).
As Satan was present in Eden, he had obviously already sinned.

What that has to do with debunking science??? I have no clue.

Anyway. You asked. I gave you the correct answer. I wish you well.

 

[Etritonakin]

So why would Yahweh/Jehovah make it to where not beilieving in them without proof was a sin?

Innocent ignorance is not a sin in and of itself.

If you would like to clarify and refrain from any hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha type of activity I will try to explain in more detail.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

1. All things that begin to exist have causes.

Unsupported. And we have not seen something "begin to exist" except for certain particles. And they seem to "begin to exist" without any prior cause. Other than that we have only ever observed change within already existing matter and energy.

2. No known infinite regression of causations exists or even seems possible.

Unsupported and uknown. A moot point but no it is not a fact. Logically deducted or otherwise.

3. The universe does not contain it's own cause.[/quoted]
Unsupported and unknown. However in your defense I see it as likely as well. At least our current universe in the form we see it today does not seem to have the capability of creating itself.

4. The cause and/or explanation of the universe transcends the universe. It is non-natural.

No. This is not the definition of natural. If there is a universally external cause to the current universe, it is not required to be supernatural.

5. This non natural uncaused first cause has certain attributes (non-special, non-material, independent of time, the ability to choose, etc........)

No. I do not agree that any of these have to be necessary. Especially independent of time and ability to choose. Independent of our current time as a dimension of our own universe yes. But other than that no.

6. We have a description of God given by men who would have no idea what needed to be faked to me the philosophy of cause and effect laid out many years later.

Aristotle? He wasn't a christian.

I believe God is the best candidate for that necessary uncaused first cause.

I know you believe it. Provide an argument as to why I should believe it.

I do not see any impossibilities in that argument that need overcoming. Perhaps it is not true but it is certainly possible and IMO likely. The absolute necessity of having an uncaused first cause is absolute, though in our own experience would be rare. Rare does not even hint at impossibility.

It is not absolute as it is unknown. If we throw the laws of the universe out of the window then we throw all of them out. Not just some. But for the sake of argument lets table this for now and say that there was at least something that we can say was an uncaused first cause from a cause not from our universe. It doesn't have to be totally uncaused but uncaused by anything within the current universe.

The ultimate cause of the universe had to precede space time (timelessness), the creator of matter would also have to be (non-material), the cause of space would have to be bon-special, etc...... He does not have to be omniscient or omnipotent but what the creator must fit fits neatly into those characteristics while nothing else known does.

It could be material and it could exist in a very similar form as it does not. I don't want to say a "creator" but lets say essence of event. Nothing thus far points to an "entity". Non-material isn't even a requiremnt at this point but "non-this universe" .

The nature of the cause can be inferred from the nature of the effect. Looking at skyscrapers I do not think the color blue built them, looking as computers I do not think a box of fruit loops caused it, etc.... Also most other God are created God's and do not count. Leaving only a few as possible creators left. I believe Yahweh is by far the best candidate for about a thousand reasons.

About a thousand reasons that are insufficient. And no it cannot be inferred. Because in order to be able to infer things we must have examples prior to base these inferences. We do not. You use already know to have been created items such as skyscrapers and computers. However this is not of the same vein. If you believe them to be you must link them. Until it is done there is no point in your argument here.

 

[1robin]

Unsupported. And we have not seen something "begin to exist" except for certain particles. And they seem to "begin to exist" without any prior cause. Other than that we have only ever observed change within already existing matter and energy.

Unsupported? Everything we have ever seen is support for that claim including your "particles". However none of them including your particles begin to exist without a cause. You could even include things that begin to exist in a new way. But forgetting all of that, the BBT and BGVT both posit a universe that began to exist and they are obsessed with finding what caused it to exist. Why didn't they just write it off and stop looking if things don't require causes?

Unsupported and uknown. A moot point but no it is not a fact. Logically deducted or otherwise.

Natural causal chains act in space time. If space time is not infinite then causal chains cannot be infinite.

Name me any effect that lacked a cause?

The way you formatted your post when I quoted it in order to respond it dropped everything but what is above. The rest of whatever you wrote disappeared.

 

[Skwim]

Unsupported. And we have not seen something "begin to exist" except for certain particles.

Kinda depends one one's definition of "something." I've seen a song begin to exist (watched my piano teacher create one right before my eyes), and believe it or not, a cumulus cloud begin to exist right before my eyes.

And they seem to "begin to exist" without any prior cause.

Really! Care to point out some of them?.

 

[FreedomIsNatural]

Unsupported. And we have not seen something "begin to exist" except for certain particles. And they seem to "begin to exist" without any prior cause. Other than that we have only ever observed change within already existing matter and energy.

Unsupported and uknown. A moot point but no it is not a fact. Logically deducted or otherwise.

No particles come out of nothing, they can be converted from other particles or energy but never nothing.