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Where do you get your morality?
- Thread starter Warren Clark
- Start date
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Do they have pictures? Napoleon once said that men would kill other men for a flag. think how much you can motivate a man over a woman's image. now if that is not morality...
Warren Clark
Informer
How so?
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Because it's based on subjective desires.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
...
Or a flag with a woman on it! Yeah, pictures, but more importantly...information...
Warren Clark
Informer
name someone that doesn't intend to live.
Not neccessarily "breathing" but wants to "live" in their thought of whatever "happiness" (for lack of a better word) is for them.
The suicide bombers are religiously unsatisfied with this world and believe that they will live better lives in the afterlife.
Euthanasia is used when people feel that they are no longer capable of "living" however hard they fight and try to "live".
Everbody wants to live to the fullest. Whatever that fullest for them is. That is where it becomes subjective.
However it is instilled in nature that there is a fight for survival to some extent.
When a turkey is about to die, it doesn't try and fight it. It will go hide under a bush and die.
Why shouldn't humans be able to die peacefully if they can no longer live to the fullest. (Talking about people that are in a vegetative state).
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
For one thing, you're moving the goalposts. For another, I've already pointed out that popularity =/= objectivity.
Warren Clark
Informer
The goal post has been the same but maybe not clearly defined.
Life/Living... What is living?
Well it can't be when you are unconscious for the remainder of your life. Although technically you may be breathing but it doesn't mean you are "living".
There is a definition of this word living that I am using.
But if you can list one person that doesn't want to live for no apparent reason... where there is no cause for them to no longer live in their mind, then please show me.
I have been a frequent observer of suicide and people so depressed that they think about suicide as a plausible solution.
Once these people are given another option to live their life to the fullest, they have a new reason to live and fight to live.
Warren Clark
Informer
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
How many times do I have to say it? The fact that a goal is popular, even universal, does not make it objective.
I agree with your popular comment as popular lots of times also means wrong and it is a fallacy. However this word universal being thrown about? When I think universal I think of it as a universal truth of some sort. A universal truth I would consider it to be objective. There are few things we can actually call universal and anything we can call universal I would deem a fact.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
No, I mean universally popular.
Warren Clark
Informer
objective— adj 1. existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions: are there objective moral values?
THESIS
Instinctly, living is objective.
A.)
Everybody seeks/finds meaning to live.
When meaning cannot be found the will to live is lost.
SOURCE
Perfectly described in the book Man's Search for Meaning by Dr. Frankl
B.)
Instinct is where morals stem from.
Beyond our existence we have a will to live that can be lost when there is lack of reason.
But because reasons do exist in most part, humans as conscious beings place rules or conjure instinctive morals to keep the needless slaughter of those that wish to live.
This is in part why I am an Animal Rights activist.
I see animals as conscious beings as others do not.
People fail to see that humans, just like animals, DO have basic instincts of which we follow.
CONCLUSION
This is the fundamental point of Darwinism.
Rather than being complete dogs, we look out for eachother.
Although, naturally there is no way to avoid Darwin's "survival of the fittest".
Hence the free market and capitalism.
Our morals come from this instinct. Hence the origin of 'Do unto others as you would have done unto you', etc.
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That we want to survive is a fact which makes it objective. The problem is wanting something instinctively is not enough reason to follow it. It is objectively true that a healthy organism will strive to survive else it is broken. That instinct alone is a good one to keep in mind when creating an objective. The science of medicine seems to do ok with that methodology.
Warren Clark
Informer
objective adj 1. existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions: are there objective moral values?
in·stinct
1
: a natural or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity <had an instinct for the right word>
2
a : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
b : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level
With both these definitions I hope I can make it clear.
Istinct is a response to stimuli without involving reason.
We create morals out of respect for the many reactions we naturally have.
The only objective moral is in the protection of ourselves.
( When there is reason to live. )
Because we see every human being as an equal we create a standard of living for everyone so that they may live more happily/peacefully.
Animal Suicide Sheds Light on Human Behavior : Discovery News
Warren Clark
Informer
Stated everything clearly...
You just are lacking the response technique.
One liners such as "I can read the defintion" doesn't prove your case.
Come on... I want a contest. I am not debating just to hear myself speak.
Whats your argument to say that its not objective?
I enjoy your critical response.
As you may have noticed, I don't attack the person speaking.
I only provide evidence to prove my point beyond a reasonable doubt...
I am not saying that the moral que of "thou shall not steal" is objective.
I am just saying that survival is objective throughout nature.
Every animal including humans weigh the question, "Is dying worth more than living?"
This is where "thou shall not kill" comes from.
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