Where does Christianity begin and end?

[vulcanlogician]

A Christian is simply one who has trusted and given his heart to Jesus Christ (thus Christian) - as the Messiah, Savior and Lord. A follower of Christ.

As far as a "single believe or cause that every single person who self-identifies as a Christian supports' - probably that Jesus died for our sins, was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father?

I appreciate your thoughts on this.

A lot of Christian Quakers fit your definition of a Christian, but do not (necessarily) hold the belief in a resurrection or perhaps other items on your list. What would you say about the Christian status of those individuals? I'm not looking for an "official answer" or anything. Just curious what you think about how significant the lack of one or more of the beliefs you listed is to someone being a Christian or not. who has made a genuine moral commitment to (as best they can) serve Jesus and follow his teachings concerning moral matters.

Which one (if either) is essential in your opinion: the belief or the commitment? The "definition of a Christian" or the belief that "all Christians share"?

 

[Truth in love]

Of course, it's not true, especially to most Christians. But, since Baha'is believe in Jesus, it puts them in a special category... Not "Christian" but believers in Jesus. Except they have they own beliefs about Jesus that contradict many Christian sects of Christianity.

That puts them in a big group including Muslims and Jews.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What did the Christians use for scriptures in the early church? Was it the same Bible you have today? How many books of the New Testament did they have? All 27 that you have? How many gospels did they have in their NT? Was it four, or was it zero?

In other words, which Bible did the Apostles use? The King James Bible? So, no, Christianity did not begin with the Bible. It didn't exist yet. Unless you just want to call the books of the Old Testament the Bible and leave out the NT?

The correct answer, BTW, is that Christianity began with the followers of Jesus.

Of course it began with followers of Jesus, who then wrote the new testament, which combined with the old testament constitutes the basis for Christianity.

 

[DNB]

I wish to explore what it means to be a Christian and follower of Christ. What does it mean to identity as Christian and non-Christian.

I attended an interfaith gathering recently and initially there were six Christians, one Buddhist and a Baha'i. The theme was 'hope' and we were sharing from our respective faith traditions what that meant. The Christians certainly had a great deal to say and then I offered to share a perspective from outside of Christianity. I shared a story about Muhammed and the circumstances leading to the Muslims flight to Ethiopia to escape the persecution from the Qureshi.

The Christian chair thanked me for sharing a 'non-Christian' perspective. In hindsight I felt uncomfortable with the words non-Christian and felt a better phrase would have simply call it a Baha'i perspective.

So what does it mean to be a Christian or non-Christian. At what point are these labels helpful and when do they simply fuel division and tribalism?

Thoughts? Questions? Thanks in advance for sharing.

A Christian is one who believes that, due to Christ's fulfillment of all the requirements of Judaic Law, and his subsequent death on the cross and resurrection, God ordained him to be the saviour of mankind, that those who repent of their sins before God, and accept Christ's death as an atonement for their sins, will receive salvation on the final day.
A Christian is one who does not attain to salvation by their works, but by their faith in Christ Jesus as God's first-born of all creation, and first-born from the dead (ascended into heaven)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Christianity begins and ends with the Bible... If you're sharing something that is counter to scripture, it is counter to Christianity.

While I agree with the necessity of the Bible for Christian Faith, agreement about the 27 books that make up the NT didn't happen until the 4th century. The books that make up the Tanakh that the Christians somewhat irreverently label the 'Old Testament" came about centuries before Christianity emerged.

 

[Kenny]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that wolves in sheep's clothing, while they may make use of all the trappings of a religious faith; quoting verses, bumper stickers, flags with crosses on them, etc., that they are actually walking by the Spirit, just yet unbeknownst to them?

Not at all... What I am expressing is that they appear to be Christians because they exude all the trimmings of Christianity but their heart is far from God and deny God's authority. They may worship next to you, say all the right things but inside they are ravening wolves.

I'm intending to start a thread on this shortly.

Please do... I have a quote that expresses my thought on the matter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For Baha'is, and some others, there is no line where Christianity begins and ends. Since you believe all the major religions, even the Dharmic ones, all come from the same source, the one true God. However, to those of us who see the great differences in beliefs between the different religions, we need those labels. But, if people can ever put aside their religious differences, then who needs those labels. And some already have.

Yet, people that follow Baha'u'llah, and believe all religions are one, still call themselves Baha'i. So, even Baha'is need a label to differentiate themselves from the other religions that have very different beliefs and doctrines.

Labels have their place in our world for identification purposes such as definitions in science and the names of people. We all need to have names. It’s how labels are used that can cause problems. If used just to identify that’s fine but if used to exalt ourselves over others that’s when labels become harmful.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If that were true, Baha'is would call thenselves Christians and not Baha'i.

In the early days of our religion we used to call ourselves Christian Baha’is and Muslim Baha’is etc. But the reason we could not continue was because for example, Christians do not accept Muhammad or Buddha so in order to accept all the Founders, we had to just call ourselves Baha’is. Each religion rejects the other religions but Baha’is believe they are all true so eventually we had to just call ourselves Baha’is. To accept all as equals we could not side with any one religion but with all of them with no sides.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course, it's not true, especially to most Christians. But, since Baha'is believe in Jesus, it puts them in a special category... Not "Christian" but believers in Jesus. Except they have they own beliefs about Jesus that contradict many Christian sects of Christianity.

Yes but it’s all in the interpretation and the very existence of so many sects indicates that there is basic disagreement between Christians over the Bible but they all believe in Jesus and the Gospels as do we Baha’is. So we share a common belief with all Christians in Jesus and the Bible. But just as each sect interprets it differently we too have our understanding. But there is a common foundation we can all agree on.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A Christian is one who believes that, due to Christ's fulfillment of all the requirements of Judaic Law, and his subsequent death on the cross and resurrection, God ordained him to be the saviour of mankind, that those who repent of their sins before God, and accept Christ's death as an atonement for their sins, will receive salvation on the final day.
A Christian is one who does not attain to salvation by their works, but by their faith in Christ Jesus as God's first-born of all creation, and first-born from the dead (ascended into heaven)

The Bible does not confirm that. I think that a holistic view of its passages will show that belief and obedience is required not just belief.

Matthew 7:21, KJV: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In the early days of our religion we used to call ourselves Christian Baha’is and Muslim Baha’is etc. But the reason we could not continue was because for example, Christians do not accept Muhammad or Buddha so in order to accept all the Founders, we had to just call ourselves Baha’is. Each religion rejects the other religions but Baha’is believe they are all true so eventually we had to just call ourselves Baha’is.

Right: you recognized the division.

To accept all as equals we could not side with any one religion but with all of them with no sides.

That's not true. You side with one religion above all others: the Baha'i faith.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Right: you recognized the division.


That's not true. You side with one religion above all others: the Baha'i faith.

Oneness is not divisive but inclusive of all. The only divisions are all imaginary. We are all one. Because an astronaut doesn’t see any borders but only one planet means he sees it as it really is not as it is imagined by politicians and people. The astronaut sides with reality and truth by not seeing any borders as there are none. All the borders are imagined ones but not real. You see borders between you and I because you choose to. I see none because I don’t give in to the temptation to limit my vision to an imaginary thought.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oneness is not divisive but inclusive of all. The only divisions are all imaginary. We are all one. Because an astronaut doesn’t see any borders but only one planet means he sees it as it really is not as it is imagined by politicians and people. The astronaut sides with reality and truth by not seeing any borders as there are none. All the borders are imagined ones but not real. You see borders between you and I because you choose to. I see none because I don’t give in to the temptation to limit my vision to an imaginary thought.

If that were really the Baha'i position, Baha'is wouldn't proselytize (or "pioneer," to use the Baha'i euphemism). You - the plural "you" in this case - would be fine with people staying where they are and you would see no need to get them to move to the Baha'i side of a border you claim is imaginary.

What I see going on is that the Baha'i faith tries to co-opt the scriptures and characters of other religions as a conversion tactic. Telling prospective converts that the border between their religion and the Baha'i faith doesn't matter can help coax some of those prospective converts across the border into Baha'i territory.

And the idea of "there would be no division if everyone just joined our religion" isn't "oneness." It makes the Baha'i faith just like many other exclusionary, divisive religions.

 

[Kenny]

I appreciate your thoughts on this.

A lot of Christian Quakers fit your definition of a Christian, but do not (necessarily) hold the belief in a resurrection or perhaps other items on your list. What would you say about the Christian status of those individuals? I'm not looking for an "official answer" or anything. Just curious what you think about how significant the lack of one or more of the beliefs you listed is to someone being a Christian or not. who has made a genuine moral commitment to (as best they can) serve Jesus and follow his teachings concerning moral matters.

Which one (if either) is essential in your opinion: the belief or the commitment? The "definition of a Christian" or the belief that "all Christians share"?

Hmm... those are good questions.

First and foremost, because I am but a man, it can get so complicated that I have to rest in that truth that God is good, His mercy endures forever and only He holds the key to what's in the heart and judges correctly. d

I do find scriptures like 3 John 1:11a Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: - It doesn't mention "and believe He is risen". So. can someone doing good be of God... it would appear so.

I would say it is belief (faith) that is more important because when you say "commitment" (works) - we end up judging the goodness of people by performance as if relationship with God is about performance. Yet, to confess Jesus as Lord does requre a heart commitment.

An analogy would simply be the horse that pulls the carriage. The horse, salvation by faith, comes first. Works through commitment should come after but it isn't the amount that is the issue.

Not trying to evade any questions... hard questions.

My question would be, just exactly what do the Christian Quakers believe if they don't believe Jesus was risen from the dead in as much as Jesus said he was going to be risen from the dead. Do they pick and choose what they want to believe?

 

[CG Didymus]

That category also includes Muslims, Druze, Raëlians, and Scientologists, among others. I'm not sure how special the category is.

Yeah, you're right. Each seems to have created a special category for themselves. And that category makes them the new, special religion, the one that is a continuation of the truth from the previous religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

That puts them in a big group including Muslims and Jews.

To throw out one more label, we can call some of these religions the "Abrahamic" religions... They start with Judaism, give reasons why their religious teachings are an improvement over Judaism and then call themselves a by a new name. Just within Christianity that happens. Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, then Protestants broke away from each other. And they all come up with a name to differentiate themselves from the others. And a lot of them seem to think they are the new, true and improved version of God's religion. But I don't know if any include religious groups that came after them. So, the new group creates their own new special category.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes but it’s all in the interpretation and the very existence of so many sects indicates that there is basic disagreement between Christians over the Bible but they all believe in Jesus and the Gospels as do we Baha’is. So we share a common belief with all Christians in Jesus and the Bible. But just as each sect interprets it differently we too have our understanding. But there is a common foundation we can all agree on.

A "common" foundation? Which is what? Take the different sects of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and then add the Baha'i Faith... What is that common foundation?

 

[Truth in love]

To throw out one more label, we can call some of these religions the "Abrahamic" religions... They start with Judaism, give reasons why their religious teachings are an improvement over Judaism and then call themselves a by a new name. Just within Christianity that happens. Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, then Protestants broke away from each other. And they all come up with a name to differentiate themselves from the others. And a lot of them seem to think they are the new, true and improved version of God's religion. But I don't know if any include religious groups that came after them. So, the new group creates their own new special category.

It can get messy. Some of the disagreements run deep. Others seem to be pretty superficial.

 

[CG Didymus]

A Christian is one who believes that, due to Christ's fulfillment of all the requirements of Judaic Law, and his subsequent death on the cross and resurrection, God ordained him to be the saviour of mankind, that those who repent of their sins before God, and accept Christ's death as an atonement for their sins, will receive salvation on the final day.
A Christian is one who does not attain to salvation by their works, but by their faith in Christ Jesus as God's first-born of all creation, and first-born from the dead (ascended into heaven)

I don't think that Christianity has an end. But it makes Christianity very exclusive. Even a religion that those Christians believe is true, Judaism, doesn't include Jews unless they turn to Jesus. Several sects of Christianity are left out, because they don't have the right beliefs and doctrines. Religions that come after, that include a belief in one God and Jesus, are excluded, because they add in other prophets and new teachings that contradict those teachings. Other religions that came before Jesus, other than Judaism, aren't even considered as being true.

So, lots of religions have found a way to include themselves into the mix of true religions by interpreting the Bible and the NT differently. Which makes Christianity and Jesus one of the many "paths" to truth... but not the "only" path. And that does put an end to Christianity... to that exclusive Christianity.

 

[CG Didymus]

It can get messy. Some of the disagreements run deep. Others seem to be pretty superficial.

Yeah, everyone thinks they are right. And everyone can "prove" they are right by using Scripture. Even religious groups that want to be all inclusive leave some religious people out, because those people hold different beliefs... An example would be those that believe Jesus is God. Islam and the Baha'i Faith would like to include Christians as having a true religion. But not if those Christians hold on to that belief about Jesus being part of a Trinity. There's just so many "deal" breakers between the different religions and sects within a religion.