Where exactly is the sacrifice in the death of Jesus?

[michel]

There was no sacrifice, that is later Christian belief. There was just a death. The Bible makes it clear why Jesus died, because the Jewish leaders murdered him. The gospels say they hated him. He said: "Why can you not hear my voice? Because you don't have the truth in you. You are children of your father, the devil, and the works of your father you will do."

TYou believe what you will, and I shall believe in what I believe to be the truth ............

 

[sojourner]

There was no sacrifice, that is later Christian belief. There was just a death. The Bible makes it clear why Jesus died, because the Jewish leaders murdered him. The gospels say they hated him. He said: "Why can you not hear my voice? Because you don't have the truth in you. You are children of your father, the devil, and the works of your father you will do."

I think the gospels make it abundantly clear that Jesus knew his ministry would lead to his death. To not give up on that ministry with that knowledge in hand precisely constitutes sacrifice.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well Sorjourner one could argue the gospels have later influences too. Its not like the gospels are first hand accounts. The latest one, John, could have been written as late as 130 CE I've seen some place it.

 

[sojourner]

Well Sorjourner one could argue the gospels have later influences too. Its not like the gospels are first hand accounts. The latest one, John, could have been written as late as 130 CE I've seen some place it.

Of course you're right. But we have to start somewhere. If we're going to assume that the gospels are reliable with regard to the mode of death, we have to assume that they're also reliable with regard to the portrayal of the sacrifice, no?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Obviously, the story doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. You're supposed to have an emotional response to it, and simply accept it based on this. This is essentially the core of religious belief. Theological arguments are nothing more than attempts at rationalization and the illusion of reason.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Considering that many people throughout history have undergone much worse and longer forms of torture and killing than did Jesus, what makes his death such a sacrifice? If god is all knowing and all powerful, then he set up the universe in such a way that he knew many people would undergo much more pain than the very finite amount of pain that his "son" had to undergo. So what is the big deal with Jesus going through a bit of pain and then dying, only to be whisked away to rule the universe forever?

Well, though it isn't mentioned that often in the four Gospels, we mustn't overlook the sweet eight-figure deal with the Yankees that Jesus had to give up.

After his crucifixion, the Savior could never play baseball again.

 

[sojourner]

Obviously, the story doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. You're supposed to have an emotional response to it, and simply accept it based on this. This is essentially the core of religious belief. Theological arguments are nothing more than attempts at rationalization and the illusion of reason.

I'd argue that it's a least a bit more than an emotional response. But you're at least partially right: The story is supposed to "hit us int he gut." But I'd also say that the stories and the theological arguments to which they point go a lot deeper than rationalization and an "illusion of reason."

 

[fallingblood]

There was no sacrifice, that is later Christian belief. There was just a death. The Bible makes it clear why Jesus died, because the Jewish leaders murdered him. The gospels say they hated him. He said: "Why can you not hear my voice? Because you don't have the truth in you. You are children of your father, the devil, and the works of your father you will do."

Actually, that is not why Jesus died. You are right, the Bible makes it clear, but not for the reason you are stating (also, one can be fully sure that Jesus never actually stated the quote you have. Jesus was a Jew. His message was for the Jews. So to call the Jews children of the devil would be counter productive. More so, it is only found in John, the Gospel that is the most anti-Jewish. Most scholars agree that that quote is the feeling of the community that produced the Gospel of John, probably because of their tension with the Jewish community).

Jesus died because he was a criminal. He went into the Temple, during Passover, and caused a massive scene and disturbance. That was a crime worthy of death.

As someone mentioned, it can also be argued that Jesus did in fact know he was going to be killed. It is actually logical as people in his position usually were killed by the Roman government. We can look at John the Baptist, who had an impact on the life of Jesus. He was killed for the same reason. And Jesus would have heard of others as well. The path he was on was one that would lead to death. It was only time before he caught the attention of the wrong person, and they had him killed. Jesus would most likely have known this.

Again though, the sacrifice didn't rely on those two ideas. As Storm said much better than I could, it was about a blood sacrifice.

 

[jmvizanko]

1+1=2 is incomplete mathematics based on assumptions concerning number and set theory which possibly may not be accurate.

Could you elaborate on that? Because I dont see how it could ever be possible for the conceptof one being added to the concept of one not equaling the concept of two.

 

[no-body]

At the time that Jesus lived magic and miracles where commonly "seen" and accepted as truth. It's not that hard of a stretch to see where a bunch of gullible people would pass on what they heard to be the truth as something they saw themselves and so on in a giant game of telephone.

 

[McBell]

This is the most significant post on this thread. The point is that Jesus had power at anytime to deliver himself from the situation which brought about his death. Thus it can be said that he gave his life and that it was not taken. The point is that he exercised discipline in a greater cause than his personal momentary wants and pleasures. We learn from scripture that his personal desire was not to continue with the ordeal but he submitted himself sacrificing his will for the benefit of others that it could be argued did not deserve such a thing.

The idea that it was not a sacrifice because he became the Suzerain of the universe overlooks the fact that he did not gain that position because of his “sacrifice”. He already was Suzerain of the universe and did not gain anything for himself for his effort and suffering. The benefit is for all that live in this mortal existence and die.

Zadok

Oh cry me a river.
Lets give god a medal for being better than humans.
Whoop dee freaking do.

Like god did not know that he was going to be resurrected three days later.
Yeah, real big sacrifice.

How about we look into the fact that God already knew even before he started that man had no way of following the 613 rules he was going to declare?
Seems to me that it was all a set up for god to do some real role playing.
But he was never in any peril.
or danger.
So what was the point of the charade?

 

[logician]

It's just a story, my friends, blood sacrifices were common mythos thousands of years ago, and the Jesus story was no exception.

 

[fallingblood]

It's just a story, my friends, blood sacrifices were common mythos thousands of years ago, and the Jesus story was no exception.

Do you ever get tired of repeating the same things without backing them up?

 

[jmvizanko]

You already know what type of answers you're going to get. They've never changed and they probably never will.

Ain't that prolly the truth. However, for some unknown reason I keep asking them... Perhaps I should heed Einstein when he said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[jmvizanko]

BTW, what other stories you've heard which are mistaken believed by 1/3 human beings as if they are the truth?!

Well either the Muslims or the Christians are wrong, and either way you have a 1/3 of the world right there believing something that isn't the truth.

 

[jmvizanko]

The real sacrifice was not in the crucifixion, but in the Incarnation. Read Philippians 2: God gave up Divinity to submit to humanity -- even to the point of crucifixion. If you were God, would you wanna be human? I wouldn't! Look what we did to God's planet!

Well he submits the rest of us to humanity, so why isn't that just as much of a sacrificial incarnation? And so what that he had to be incarnated for a few decades, only to die and rule the universe forever? The rest of us die and most of us area punished forever because we unintentionally had the wrong things regarding the unknowable make sense to us.

 

[Tristesse]

Do you ever get tired of repeating the same things without backing them up?

You need to do some studying of ancient cultures, because if you don't think they had stories of blood sacrifices similar to jesus, then it's obvious you haven't even looked into the matter.

 

[fallingblood]

You need to do some studying of ancient cultures, because if you don't think they had stories of blood sacrifices similar to jesus, then it's obvious you haven't even looked into the matter.

Could you name some of those individuals?

 

[Webbster101]

The idea of the sacrifice was in the same manner of the sacrificial lamb. It was to forgive sins. That is the idea of how what Jesus did was a sacrifice.

Thats not entierly true, while Christ was up on the cross (though others never saw it) God was pouring out his wrath on Christ to attone for our sins. That is where the sacrifice is not is the general view of him dying for our sins but that he took the wrath of God for us.

 

[Webbster101]

It's just a story, my friends, blood sacrifices were common mythos thousands of years ago, and the Jesus story was no exception.

I'm curious where you got this information.
Or
Is this just your way of saying you don't understand the issues at hand?