Where exactly is the sacrifice in the death of Jesus?

[fallingblood]

my only point was that these characters died and were resurrected. And I never said jesus was based around these individuals, I think that the myths grew around jesus. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm just pointing out that the jesus story is not unique to jesus. These are legends that were passed down from person to person, in an oral tradition and people wrote them down decades later. So, it shouldn't be surprising to see similarities.

Most of these characters were never resurrected though.

 

[fallingblood]

Please give me a break, you have no proof of this whatsoever.:sleep:

You have proof supporting your position? Maybe you should start a new thread on that revealing any evidence you may have.

And yes, I, along with many other people on this forum, have provided all of the proof that should be needed. You simply deny it without giving any evidence supporting your position.

 

[sojourner]

So, god is a contradiction?

No, our limited understanding of the nature of God sometimes creates contradictions for us.

 

[Tristesse]

Most of these characters were never resurrected though.

HAHA! Yes they were, osiris was resurrected.

 

[Tristesse]

No, our limited understanding of the nature of God sometimes creates contradictions for us.

oh so, god isn't bound by the laws of logic? If thats the case, then I guess god is illogical.

 

[sojourner]

oh so, god isn't bound by the laws of logic? If thats the case, then I guess god is illogical.

Logic is a human construct. God is not. It's our concept of God that skews illogical, not God.

 

[Tristesse]

Logic is a human construct. God is not. It's our concept of God that skews illogical, not God.

If we can't conceive of god, then how can you say anything about him? And how do you determine, since he's not bound by the laws of logic, that such a being exists?

 

[The Enlightened One]

I believe that Jesus was executed rather than having sacraficed himself. You can come up with multiple contradictions to this but no matter how you put it you are only taking the words of other humans for it, most of which weren't even alive during Jesus' life time.

Okay, here it comes.....

 

[sojourner]

If we can't conceive of god, then how can you say anything about him? And how do you determine, since he's not bound by the laws of logic, that such a being exists?

I didn't say we can't conceive of God. Obviously, we can. God is bound by nothing, or else God wouldn't be God. If God could be bound by a human construct, God wouldn't be God. What I said was that it's our limited understanding of God that cause logical problems.

 

[Tristesse]

I didn't say we can't conceive of God. Obviously, we can. God is bound by nothing, or else God wouldn't be God. If God could be bound by a human construct, God wouldn't be God. What I said was that it's our limited understanding of God that cause logical problems.

I have no understanding of god, so, mine is very limited. And honestly I don't know how anyone could.

 

[sojourner]

I believe that Jesus was executed rather than having sacraficed himself. You can come up with multiple contradictions to this but no matter how you put it you are only taking the words of other humans for it, most of which weren't even alive during Jesus' life time.

Okay, here it comes.....

You must be taking that information from the gospels (or from other Biblical accounts). If you are basing your conclusion on that information, then the other information about Jesus must also be assumed to be the basis for other conclusions that can be drawn. If Jesus had simply closed his mouth and stopped doing what he was doing, he wouldn't have been executed. However, since Jesus did not do that, and since he knew what the political climate was, his continued actions do constitute a self-sacrifice, since he knew how his continued actions would end up for him.

 

[fallingblood]

HAHA! Yes they were, osiris was resurrected.

So you have one of them being resurrected? Again, like I said, most were not resurrected. And I don't think Osiris was even actually resurrected per se.

 

[fallingblood]

You must be taking that information from the gospels (or from other Biblical accounts). If you are basing your conclusion on that information, then the other information about Jesus must also be assumed to be the basis for other conclusions that can be drawn. If Jesus had simply closed his mouth and stopped doing what he was doing, he wouldn't have been executed. However, since Jesus did not do that, and since he knew what the political climate was, his continued actions do constitute a self-sacrifice, since he knew how his continued actions would end up for him.

Would you agree that John the Baptist committed a self-sacrifice as well? And what about the many other supposed messiahs who were killed for not shutting their mouths? And if these were all self-sacrifices, then it is not logical to assume that Jesus was any different.

 

[Tristesse]

So you have one of them being resurrected? Again, like I said, most were not resurrected. And I don't think Osiris was even actually resurrected per se.

No, not one, I believe all if not the majority of the ones I mentioned were resurrected. But thats irrelevant, the fact that there is even one, makes my point. And I can tell that you seem to be a little uncomfortable with the idea that there were gods before jesus who were supposedly resurrected, because in the story of osiris, he was either resurrected or he wasn't, there isn't a "per se" about it. You're just trying to bolster your jesus character because it's the one you happen to favor.

 

[SBrent]

[FONT=&quot]There is probably more sacrifice in the physical life and existence of Christ than his death. If the gospels are to be believed then surely the fact that he came to live here on Earth, leaving heaven, a place seemingly of complete love and no suffering whatsoever, sounds like more of a sacrifice to me. [/FONT]

 

[fallingblood]

No, not one, I believe all if not the majority of the ones I mentioned were resurrected. But thats irrelevant, the fact that there is even one, makes my point. And I can tell that you seem to be a little uncomfortable with the idea that there were gods before jesus who were supposedly resurrected, because in the story of osiris, he was either resurrected or he wasn't, there isn't a "per se" about it. You're just trying to bolster your jesus character because it's the one you happen to favor.

I'm not a Christian. I don't believe Jesus to be divine. I have no problem with the ideas of gods before Jesus. I don't even believe he was resurrected. I believe it was a story created after the fact. However, I do object to misinformation being spread.

Also, just because another person was resurrected is meaningless. Lazareth was resurrected in the Biblical story. It does not suggest that Lazreth's resurrection has anything to do with that of Jesus's. Also, just because resurrection happens, does not mean that it was a blood sacrifice. More so, the form of resurrection is different.

There is no way that the Jesus resurrection was based off of Osiris resurrection though. They aren't even close to the same. Osiris was dismembered and magically put back together. Not even in the same ball park as Jesus.

Also, as I already said, many of the examples you gave were not resurrected. And it does matter because you are trying to claim something that is false.

 

[Tristesse]

I'm not a Christian. I don't believe Jesus to be divine. I have no problem with the ideas of gods before Jesus. I don't even believe he was resurrected. I believe it was a story created after the fact. However, I do object to misinformation being spread.

Also, just because another person was resurrected is meaningless. Lazareth was resurrected in the Biblical story. It does not suggest that Lazreth's resurrection has anything to do with that of Jesus's. Also, just because resurrection happens, does not mean that it was a blood sacrifice. More so, the form of resurrection is different.

There is no way that the Jesus resurrection was based off of Osiris resurrection though. They aren't even close to the same. Osiris was dismembered and magically put back together. Not even in the same ball park as Jesus.

Also, as I already said, many of the examples you gave were not resurrected. And it does matter because you are trying to claim something that is false.

You're kind of misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that any of these other death and resurrection stories have any specific tie to the jesus stories. But what I think is more likely, is that these type of resurrection stories were very prevalent during that time period. And jesus is just one of many gods to be resurrected.

 

[sojourner]

Would you agree that John the Baptist committed a self-sacrifice as well? And what about the many other supposed messiahs who were killed for not shutting their mouths? And if these were all self-sacrifices, then it is not logical to assume that Jesus was any different.

Not sure John the Baptist was a self-sacrifice. It was the wife that conspired to kill John after the fact.

but, yes. The execution of Jesus was no different than any other martyrdom, except for the fact that it was Very God we were executing.

 

[The Enlightened One]

You must be taking that information from the gospels (or from other Biblical accounts). If you are basing your conclusion on that information, then the other information about Jesus must also be assumed to be the basis for other conclusions that can be drawn. If Jesus had simply closed his mouth and stopped doing what he was doing, he wouldn't have been executed. However, since Jesus did not do that, and since he knew what the political climate was, his continued actions do constitute a self-sacrifice, since he knew how his continued actions would end up for him.

I can see how this can be viewed as a sacrafice rather than an act of martyrdom, however I AM curious if he actually stated that it was for our sins or if it was just interpereted as such, and I am also curious why a god would have to die in order for us to be forgiven. I am not nocking the religion, this is just a question that I never got explained to me while I was a young christian(perhaps because of my age at the time)

 

[Zadok]

So then...If this is true, lets say we discover life on other planets, that means Jesus, "Suzerain of the universe" died for them too? I don't know about you but if we had an alien race telling us hey, our guy here is "Suzerain of the Universe" he rules you too, I'd probably be like "he/she doesn't have the jurisdiction!" So what give's Jesus the jurisdiction? And you say the benefit is for us, but I still don't get how this benefited us and our alien friends cause they don't even know who Jesus is. How do we know one of their own didn't die for them in the same manner and is laying claim to this "Suzerain of the universe" title as well? What problem did it change or fix in humanity that was wrong that we still don't have today?

The universe as we understand it has only one source - one beginning - one creation. This is verified by both Biblical scripture and scientific effort. This being one of the extremely rare points concerning creation reality that science and “traditional” Christian theology agree on – rejecting such a notion, would therefore seem rather stupid and ignorant. There is a claim in scripture that Jesus was and still is the brains, order and law by which the universe is governed. I am quite sure that some intelligence greater than the aggregate intelligence of man is necessary. I am also bewildered by explanations of randomness accomplishing anything. I believe such thoughts and arguments show nothing more than ignorance of any actual possible causes by the perpetrators of such argument. Events without cause is not possible and is the main reason we trust science in the first place

There is no known life in this universe other than what is found on earth. Speculation abounds, both by theologians and scientist, concerning life beyond the confines of earth but there is no definitive evidence. Such speculations are the efforts of silly fools that have not yet dealt with the universe as we presently experience it. I say this because so far you have been unable to find or admit any benefit in the example of Jesus. So I ask - what, according to your understanding of Jesus do you find so offensive or worthless to your intelligence that inspires you to offer yourself as the better example of how live or die to benefit others to have reason to consider others or at least behave in an enlightened manner towards others? To at least have some respect for justice?



Zadok