WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[3rdAngel]

And you just quoted everything I said as one thing, and didn't address my points. I think it is you who are projecting this so-called "micro-quoting." I asked you to please share which verses you wish me to address, but you didn't. Why not? Don't you want to see my response to them?


They are God's words, interpreted by you. Why is this so impossible for you to comprehend? When I quote the same words, and offer a different understanding of them, then I'm wrong and you're right, because you alone interpret them correctly? How is this so impossible for you to comprehend? Are you that delusional?


No, it's with you. I'm fine with God. I only disagree with you.


I'm not making any excuses for sin. Which sin? Name it? What sin am I committing, other than disagreeing with how you interpret the Bible? You don't get to accuse me of sinning without just cause. I'm not mocking God, nor am I mocking you. I just dispute your ideas about God. That's the only thing that I can see, so that must be what you think in my sin? To disagree with you?

I'm not sinning. What are you calling me sinning? And "who are you to judge another man's servant"? Romans 14:4. You know that entire chapter you refused to discuss with me, because you know it lays waste to your entire judgement of other Christians as sinning because they don't agree with your legalism. But it's not my words, but God's words you are rejecting. So you know all those verses you just quoted about not continuing to sin? You'd better stop sinning then.

Sauce of the goose, is sauce for your gander....

Wrong! "For the heavens declare the glory of God, the firmament showeth his handiwork, day unto day uttereth speech, night unto night sheweth knowledge." Psalm 19. "For the invisible things of him through creation are clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and godhead so that they are without excuse", Romans 1:20.

I could go on, but it is clear from scripture, which you ignore or reject because it doesn't agree with you (I'm just using your tactics back at you here), that we can and do in fact know God's Love through creation itself, without words on a page in ink. "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law." Romans 2:14. And if they "do by nature the things required by the law", and they only way to fulfill the law is through LOVE, then they clearly, without knowledge of scripture, though nature, through the witness of their own hearts and conscious, know what Love is.

I know no way you can dismiss this. It contradicts your legalism. It affirms what that cartoon so masterfully, and accurately, and truthful says. The lens through which you read scripture, taints it with the color of your fear and legalistic view of God as a God of conditional love. The lense through which I read scripture through is the lens of Love, which sees Grace, forgiveness, patience, longsuffer, and everything else you can read for yourself in the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians, as well as the list of the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians.

"Now we see through a glass darkly". That is the filters, the lens, the biases through which your fear reads the Bible. So, they are NOT "God's words, not mine", as you blindly assume against all reason and facts. They are "God's word", seen through your dark glasses of fear. But when you heart becomes filled with that Infinite Love, then that glass through which we see becomes crystal clear, and we "see Face to Face", and know even as we are known.

Love is the opposite of fear. Perfect Love casts out all fear. That's is what that comic, which you call a lie, is masterfully saying. Remember, they said Jesus cast of devils with a devil, because he taught the Gospel of Love too, right?

I never said that. You accuse me of that. Just like the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the commandments too. You're siding with the wrong group in that narrative. He taught Love, they accused him of lawlessness. Sound familiar to you? It does to me, just as it was familiar to Jesus.

Yes, one of the verses I quote in support of the law of love. "You shall know them by their fruits". A good tree produces good fruits. Of course we will naturally keep God's commandments. But that does not mean following the 613 external laws of Moses. Haven't you learned that yet in your Bible study groups? Maybe you should find a better church?


Yes, exactly. "Love works no ill". If you abide in Love, you will not sin. If you sin, you are not abiding in love. The goal is to look at your heart, not follow a checklist of 613 commandments to make sure you did each one as you're supposed to in order to be accepted by God. That's your legalistic approach. That is making clean the outside of the cup, and ignoring the inside.

I think you just don't understand this, because the "glass" that you look though, doesn't apprehend the nature of what unconditional, agape, or Divine Love is. That's not a condemnation of you. It's simply understanding that you can't relate to what that kind of Love is like, and so naturally you read scripture through that "glass darkly". You imagine love to mean living up to expectations and receiving approvals. That isn't truly love. It certainly isn't the nature of God's Love.

I am following the Way that Jesus taught. "Love God with all your heart... and love your neighbor as yourself". All the rest is as Paul says,

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.​

When you can figure out what that verse means, and what that entire chapter means, then we can begin to have a discussion. But I think you are still hung up as one still weak in faith, thinking days of the week are more important than Love. And you judge those, you judge another man's servant, because you don't understand the nature of Grace.

Read Romans 14 my friend. When you are ready to discuss that chapter calmly and with reason and respect with me, then let me know.

Well nothing you have posted here is true at all. What was not addressed through the scriptures provided in the post you were quoting from? Or has not been addressed in earlier posts and scriptures shared with you that are directly in disagreement with you that you have chosen to ignore while simply repeating yourself and ignoring the scriptures that are directly in disagreement with you that you do not want to talk about? Lets see if that claim is true. Please be honest in our discussion. You are promoting teachings of lawlessness and sin over what scripture says word for word. Gods Word does not promote sin by separating love, faith and obedience to what God's Word says. You are micro-quoting again without addressing anything in the post content and scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with you.

 

[Windwalker]

Well nothing you have posted here is true at all.

Is that you saying this, or is this God's words and not your words? I just want to be clear about your thought processes here.

What was not addressed through the scriptures provided in the post you were quoting from?

Romans 14. The entire chapter. You've squirmed and skirted your way out of addressing that the entire time. Not that I don't understand why, as I do. But like I said, whenever you're ready to discuss it maturely with me, without you calling me a sinner mocking God or some other such distraction from the facts, let me know. I'm still waiting.

Or has not been addressed in earlier posts and scriptures shared with you that are directly in disagreement with you that you have chosen to ignore while simply repeating yourself and ignoring the scriptures that are directly in disagreement with you that you do not want to talk about?

None of those scripture you have ever provided contradict me. I just haven't felt like doing a detailed exegesis on the flood of references you give, without once offering any insight of your own on them, other to claim they support you when they really don't. That's not playing fair on your part. None of this is.

Please be honest in our discussion.

Sure. Let's start with you. Do you believe me disagreeing with your ideas about God and the Bible is a sin? Do you believe your interpretations of scripture are infallible? Yes, or No?

You need to be honest about this.

You are promoting teachings of lawlessness and sin over what scripture says word for word.

What lawlessness am I teaching that you accuse me of, like the Pharisees of old accused Jesus of?

Gods Word does not promote sin by separating love, faith and obedience to what God's Word says.

"Love works no ill. Love is the fulfillment of the law". That's the scriptures. I'm not saying anything different than that.

You are micro-quoting again without addressing anything in the post content and scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with you.

You are not being honest.

 

[2ndpillar]

The words of Jesus, 'this is my body', 'this is my blood' the institution of the eucharist, were within the context of
the Jewish liturgy of Passover. It is this that is re-enacted in a Catholic mass.

According to Acts 15:29, Paul was told by James to teach to abstain from "blood" and things strangled. Well, the normal cause of death from being hung on a cross is the strangling off of the blood supply, and the drinking of someone's actual blood would be not to be abstaining from blood. As for sacrificing to gods, that is what you are representing that the flesh of Yeshua is being sacrificed too. The "blood" simply signifies the Spirit of God, which resides in the blood. You can drink all the wine you want, but it is not actually going to imbue you with the Spirit of God. Yeshua's description of the kingdom of heaven is through the use of parables/imagery (Matthew 13:11-13). There is no actual "beast" with "seven heads", but 7 kings/kingdoms (Revelation 13:2 &12-13). Passover was done away with regard to the Roman church per their determination at the Council of Nicaea, and the pagan feast of Astarte/Easter was introduced instead. The Catholic mass is simply the symbiotic offering of someone's flesh and blood to their god, similar to the offering of slaves to their sun god with respect to the Aztecs. Per Matthew 4, eating "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, is the substitution for eating bread. The bread of life, would not be flesh, but eating every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God and his prophets, one of whom was Yeshua. The Gentile church preaches that the law, the Law and the prophets has been nailed to the cross and is therefore "obsolete" and "passing away". That is not the case, and eating unleavened wafers will only give you a bad taste in your mouth. I can understand your position. My mom died a Catholic, and although she had major doubts, she still held onto her beliefs, although she did give me aa Pe****ta bible, which was not without merit. It showed major changes made in the newer Greek conversion bibles.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

According to Acts 15:29, Paul was told by James to teach to abstain from "blood" and things strangled.

Actually, it was the GENTILE believers that were told to abstain from blood, etc. The ogligation that Jewish believers should keep all the laws remained unaltered. And in fact you see that these Jewish believers remained "zealous for Torah." Acts 21:20

 

[Oeste]

As posted earlier you did not post a single scripture that says Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 because there is no scripture to support that view.

I've answered this before. The Lord's Day is Resurrection Day. Resurrection Day is the first day of the week. Why? Because that was the Day Jesus rose from the dead:

When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. (Mark 16:9)​

If you are using the Hebrew calendar, the first day of the week will be associated with our Sunday.

So YES, there is DEFINITELY scripture which tells us the "the Lord's Day" or Revelation is the first day of the week.

This is not hard to understand.

Well that is not true. No one has answered the OP question including you. Here let me ask it again in case you missed it. Where is the scripture that says Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? No one has answered the OP because there is no scripture. Lets be honest in our discussion. Your not being truthful.

This question has been answered by virtually everyone who's posted on this thread.

Can you at least tell us which traditional Christian church claims the 4th Commandment was abolished? I hear you repeat this charge, over and over and over again, but I'm not aware of any traditional Christian church claiming the same.

Perhaps you can tell us which church you heard this from and point us to their doctrine page. I suspect the charge is invalid and simply serves as staging for a false talking point.

I think the problem is not that no one has answered the OP (since virtually everyone has). The problem is that you are not convinced.

But this is a "debate" forum, not a "convince" forum. So, if you are looking for answers to the OP, you'll find them all over this thread. You may not find them convincing, but then we are under no obligation to convince you.

Look at it from our POV...the vast majority of Christians are already convinced there is no need to keep a 7th Day Sabbath. Why would they when we are already at rest in Christ?? Nothing you've presented here has convinced us to move our yoke from Christ to the 4th Commandment and/or the Law, so you have not moved the needle at all.

In fact, scripture tells us we don't have to convince you, and that we should be perfectly content with those quibbling about keeping this Sabbath, that feast, or some religious holiday. Why? Because it's not for us to make you stand. Christ will make you stand because it is Jesus that has you covered.

Yes Jesus, and not the 4th Commandment. All the 4th Commandment did was point to Jesus.

None of the Israelite's were around at creation, so Mark 2:27 with Jesus saying that God made the Sabbath for mankind only supports what has already been shared with you that you seem to be unwilling to talk about.

That's all we have been talking about.

God rested from his creative works on the 7th Day. Man was created on the 6th. Man was allowed to rest in God.

When Adam sinned he showed he no longer believed in God. As a resulted he was booted from the garden.

This means Adam was no longer at rest with God.

God, in His grace, offered the Israelites (not all mankind) a single day of rest at Exodus 16 and 20. The kicker? They had to keep His commandments. You know, like Adam in the garden. So when the Jews kept His commandments they were at rest in Christ.

This offer was exclusive to the Jews if they would keep his commandments. The rest of the nations were NOT at rest with God, because they had not shown any inclination to place their faith in God. Even so, God could offer this new nation as a light out of the darkness to guide the nations to God. It was a shadow of the light and rest to come, and it also harkens to the rest Adam, Eve, and all mankind had but for the fact they couldn't keep their hands away from the forbidden fruit.

This is important to understand: Keeping one day of rest while offering endless sacrifices for numerous infractions, is NOT what God had in mind for creation when He rested on that 7th Day.

Israel FAILS in its mission. It cannot keep the Law. In fact, no one can because, after Adam sinned, no one could. We will all sinners and given to sin.

So God sent His Son, to be sin for us, and to reconcile us back to God.

Christ, the promised Savior, arrives. He is our new gift. This does not "abolish" the old gift offered by the Law. It's an upgrade that can offer God full atonement for all of us, something the Law could never do.

Christ offers us true eternal rest from our labors, and not just on Saturdays:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30​

He announces that he, and not Israel, is the true light that offers life:

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12​

​

He also announce that He, and not the Law, is the true way to live one's life:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6​

Note: Christ could have said "I and the Law" or "I or the Law", He could have said "No one comes to the Father....except by keeping the 4th Commandment and then through me" (which is essentially what @3rdAngel and @2ndpillar allege), but we don't see that here or anywhere else. Our salvation was never the Law but was always Christ before his coming, during his coming, and continues to be Christ now that he came. Our modern day Sabbath keepers attempt to burden Christians by adding to the word of God, much like their ancient counterparts, the Pharisees, attempted to do with the Jews before them.​

Christ completes his mission at Calvary. His mission was not incomplete, but fulfilled, and the Law with it. By taking his yolk the believer can now enjoy freedom from the impossibility of keeping the Law.

One of the benefits of taking Christ's yoke is that he extends his peace, the Father's peace, to his followers. So we are reconciled, and at rest in God through Christ, and not through vain attempts at keeping the 4th Commandment.

Christ's rest is ETERNAL. It is not a one day in seven affair, and it is far superior to any rest offered under the Law. The Law does not restore Christians to the rest mankind had at the garden anymore than it would have for the Jews, but the promise of rest in Christ does exactly that.

So it is better for believers to place their faith in the COMPLETED works of Christ, rather than their own works or the law.

 

[2ndpillar]

I've answered this before. The Lord's Day is Resurrection Day. Resurrection Day is the first day of the week. Why? Because that was the Day Jesus rose from the dead:

When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. (Mark 16:9)
If you are using the Hebrew calendar, the first day of the week will be associated with our Sunday.

So YES, there is DEFINITELY scripture which tells us the "the Lord's Day" or Revelation is the first day of the week.

This is not hard to understand.

That is not what my NASB published in 1971 reads. I think since then, other versions have changed. My NASB reads:
"Now late on the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" at which time, he was already gone.
As for how long he was to remain in the earth, that would be 3 days and 3 nights according to Matthew 12:40, which would time out just before sunset after 3 days and 3 nights, following the 14th of Nissan, Passover, which happens at various days of the week, but happens before the high holy Sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread, which happens on the 15th of Nissan.


Mt 12:40 "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt 12:40)

 

[3rdAngel]

Is that you saying this, or is this God's words and not your words? I just want to be clear about your thought processes here.

No you do not. I have made myself clear in many posts to you by providing scripture that is direct disagreement with your words. You have also been provided the context to every bible text you have provided proving that when you cherry pick scripture to promote your teachings of lawlessness you are twisting scripture to say what scripture has never said. Your response to all my posts is to ignore the post content and the scriptures that are in direct disagreement with you and micro-quote what I post out of context to all the supporting scriptures that have been shared with you in order to seek to justify your sins. You therefore twist scripture in order to justify sin. Something the bible never teaches.

Romans 14. The entire chapter. You've squirmed and skirted your way out of addressing that the entire time. Not that I don't understand why, as I do. But like I said, whenever you're ready to discuss it maturely with me, without you calling me a sinner mocking God or some other such distraction from the facts, let me know. I'm still waiting.

Sadly there is no truth in your words. As already shared with you earlier through the scriptures, you read into scripture what is not in the scripture. Romans 14 is about eating and not eating on days men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard. I asked you to prove to me from Romans 14 of the book of Romans where Romans 14 is talking about Gods 4th commandment and where does it say Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. All I have heard back from you is silence and you repeating the same argument that have already been addressed through the scriptures you choose to ignore in order to justify your sins. So please do not pretend that your claims in regards to Romans 14 have not been addressed and your still waiting that would be not telling the truth.

SOME POINTS TO CONSIDER IN ROMANS 14:1-23

• [1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
• [2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on
• [3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
• The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]
• [4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
• [5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
• [6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
• [7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments
• [8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
• [9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

• [10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:
• Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
• Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
• Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
• Romans7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
• [11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14
• [12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.
• [13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).
• [14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14
• [15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
• [16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".
• [17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day
• [18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

CONCLUSION: Nothing about God's 4th commandment in there at all. The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes. LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

No you show me dear friend where does it say in Romans 14 or anywhere in the book of Romans that it is talking about Gods 4th commandments? You are cherry picking scripture and reading Gods 4th commandment into Romans 14 when it is not even mentioned in the scriptures.

None of those scripture you have ever provided contradict me. I just haven't felt like doing a detailed exegesis on the flood of references you give, without once offering any insight of your own on them, other to claim they support you when they really don't. That's not playing fair on your part. None of this is.

Every scripture provided to you is in contradiction to what you are promoting. All you are telling me is something I already know and that is you do not believe the scriptures shared with you that are in direct disagreement with you which is why you are unwilling to address my post content and continue to micro-quote my posts out of its contexts to all the scriptures that are in direct disagreement to what you are posting here.

Sure. Let's start with you. Do you believe me disagreeing with your ideas about God and the Bible is a sin? Do you believe your interpretations of scripture are infallible? Yes, or No?
You need to be honest about this. What lawlessness am I teaching that you accuse me of, like the Pharisees of old accused Jesus of? "Love works no ill. Love is the fulfillment of the law". That's the scriptures. I'm not saying anything different than that. You are not being honest.

If you read my posts you would already know the answer to your question. I have already posted the bibles definition of sin from 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23 which says that sin is breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments and not believing and obeying what Gods Word says. I have already posted here many times now showing from the scriptures that no one loves God if they break anyone of God 10 commandments and that love is expressed in obedience to Gods law not breaking Gods law. That is the very definition of sin and that is what you are promoting. No one can claim to love God by breaking His law. Jesus says on these two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Paul agrees with Jesus when he says that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up obedience to those commandments that show us how to love our fellow man in Exodus 20:12-17. James also agrees with Jesus and Paul when he says in James 2:8-12 that we cannot claim to love our fellow man if we break any of Gods 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our neighbor. John also is in agreement with Jesus, Paul, and James when he defines the love of God in 1 John 5:2-3 and says "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." So love is not separate from Gods law. Love to God and man is expressed in obedience to Gods law from the heart. This is why John also says in 1 John 2:3-4 that the test to know if we know God and the truth of His Word is if we obey Gods commandments; "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Perhaps its time to re-evaluate what you believe dear friend receive Gods Word and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Words do not make them disappear because the words of God we choose to accept or reject become our judge come judgement day according to Jesus (see John 12:47-48)

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

I've answered this before. The Lord's Day is Resurrection Day. Resurrection Day is the first day of the week. Why? Because that was the Day Jesus rose from the dead:When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. (Mark 16:9) If you are using the Hebrew calendar, the first day of the week will be associated with our Sunday. So YES, there is DEFINITELY scripture which tells us the "the Lord's Day" or Revelation is the first day of the week

Actually no you did not answer this before. Please show me a single scripture in all the bible that says Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day". You provided no scripture. None of the scriptures you have provided here say anywhere that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" (Revelation 1:10). So no you have not provided any scripture that says Sunday or the first day of the week is the Lords day. Lets be honest. You have no scripture do you or you would have posted it.

3rdAngel said:
Well that is not true. No one has answered the OP question including you. Here let me ask it again in case you missed it. Where is the scripture that says Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? No one has answered the OP because there is no scripture. Lets be honest in our discussion. Your not being truthful.

Your response here...

This is not hard to understand. This question has been answered by virtually everyone who's posted on this thread. Can you at least tell us which traditional Christian church claims the 4th Commandment was abolished? I hear you repeat this charge, over and over and over again, but I'm not aware of any traditional Christian church claiming the same. Perhaps you can tell us which church you heard this from and point us to their doctrine page. I suspect the charge is invalid and simply serves as staging for a false talking point. I think the problem is not that no one has answered the OP (since virtually everyone has). The problem is that you are not convinced. But this is a "debate" forum, not a "convince" forum. So, if you are looking for answers to the OP, you'll find them all over this thread. You may not find them convincing, but then we are under no obligation to convince you. Look at it from our POV...the vast majority of Christians are already convinced there is no need to keep a 7th Day Sabbath. Why would they when we are already at rest in Christ?? Nothing you've presented here has convinced us to move our yoke from Christ to the 4th Commandment and/or the Law, so you have not moved the needle at all. In fact, scripture tells us we don't have to convince you, and that we should be perfectly content with those quibbling about keeping this Sabbath, that feast, or some religious holiday. Why? Because it's not for us to make you stand. Christ will make you stand because it is Jesus that has you covered. Yes Jesus, and not the 4th Commandment. All the 4th Commandment did was point to Jesus.

So where is the scripture that says that says Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest which is the question you are responding to? You did not provide any did you.

That's all we have been talking about. God rested from his creative works on the 7th Day. Man was created on the 6th. Man was allowed to rest in God. When Adam sinned he showed he no longer believed in God. As a resulted he was booted from the garden. This means Adam was no longer at rest with God. God, in His grace, offered the Israelites (not all mankind) a single day of rest at Exodus 16 and 20. The kicker? They had to keep His commandments. You know, like Adam in the garden. So when the Jews kept His commandments they were at rest in Christ. This offer was exclusive to the Jews if they would keep his commandments. The rest of the nations were NOT at rest with God, because they had not shown any inclination to place their faith in God. Even so, God could offer this new nation as a light out of the darkness to guide the nations to God. It was a shadow of the light and rest to come, and it also harkens to the rest Adam, Eve, and all mankind had but for the fact they couldn't keep their hands away from the forbidden fruit. This is important to understand: Keeping one day of rest while offering endless sacrifices for numerous infractions, is NOT what God had in mind for creation when He rested on that 7th Day. Israel FAILS in its mission. It cannot keep the Law. In fact, no one can because, after Adam sinned, no one could. We will all sinners and given to sin.

The reason why we cannot keep Gods law is the reason why Jesus came to die on the cross and save us from our sins. However the good news of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is that we have a Savior that gives us the power through His Spirit under Gods new covenant promise to obey Gods laws that are written in to the hearts of all those who though faith, believe and follow what Gods Word says and have been born again into Gods new covenant promise to love (see Romans 3:8-23; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16; Matthew 9:12-13; John 3:3-7 compare 1 John 3:4-9. In fact John gives us a test to know if we know God or do not know God in 1 John 2:3-4 and says; "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." John continue to define sin as the transgression of Gods law in 1 John 3:4 and goes on to say those who are born of God do not practice sin and that sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:6-10. (go read it the scriptures shared with you)

more to come...

 

[3rdAngel]

So God sent His Son, to be sin for us, and to reconcile us back to God. Christ, the promised Savior, arrives. He is our new gift. This does not "abolish" the old gift offered by the Law. It's an upgrade that can offer God full atonement for all of us, something the Law could never do. Christ offers us true eternal rest from our labors, and not just on Saturdays: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

According to the scriptures no one can claim rest in Christ is they do not believe and obey what Christ says; This is the warning given in Hebrews 3:9-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. We come to Christ and take His yoke upon us by believing and obeying what Gods Word says. If we do not believe and obey Gods Word according to the scriptures we are still in our sins and do not know God and need to be born again. This is why Jesus says "by their fruits you shall know them. That is who is from God and who is not (see Matthew 7:13-23)

He announces that he, and not Israel, is the true light that offers life:"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12He also announce that He, and not the Law, is the true way to live one's life: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 Note: Christ could have said "I and the Law" or "I or the Law", He could have said "No one comes to the Father....except by keeping the 4th Commandment and then through me" (which is essentially what @3rdAngel and @2ndpillar allege), but we don't see that here or anywhere else. Our salvation was never the Law but was always Christ before his coming, during his coming, and continues to be Christ now that he came. Our modern day Sabbath keepers attempt to burden Christians by adding to the word of God, much like their ancient counterparts, the Pharisees, attempted to do with the Jews before them.Christ completes his mission at Calvary. His mission was not incomplete, but fulfilled, and the Law with it. By taking his yolk the believer can now enjoy freedom from the impossibility of keeping the Law. One of the benefits of taking Christ's yoke is that he extends his peace, the Father's peace, to his followers. So we are reconciled, and at rest in God through Christ, and not through vain attempts at keeping the 4th Commandment.

All you have said here is that the way to Christ is through breaking the law when the scriptures teach us in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10 that if we break Gods law we commit sin and do not know God and are not telling the truth and are the children of the devil (go read the scriptures shared with you here). You cannot claims to know God dear friend by breaking his commandments. That is the very definition of what the bible says sin is (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11) and sin is what separates us from God *Isaiah 59:2 according to the scriptures.

Christ's rest is ETERNAL. It is not a one day in seven affair, and it is far superior to any rest offered under the Law. The Law does not restore Christians to the rest mankind had at the garden anymore than it would have for the Jews, but the promise of rest in Christ does exactly that. So it is better for believers to place their faith in the COMPLETED works of Christ, rather than their own works or the law.

No one told you anywhere that we are saved through the law so please stop making strawman arguments no one is arguing about. According to the scriptures we are saved by Gods grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, genuine faith comes from believing and obeying what Gods Word says from the heart (see Romans 3:31; Romans 10:17) anything else according to James in James 2:13-26 is the dead faith of devils because the devils believe but do not obey. Therefore if your faith does not have the fruit of obedience to God's law then according to the scriptures we do not know God and are still in our sins and need to be born again into Gods new covenant promise through faith (see John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; 1 John 2:3-4.

Sin is defined as the transgression of Gods law (1 John 3:4) and not believing and following what Gods Word says in Romans 14:23; Matthew 7:21-23. The testing question coming to each one of us will be who do we believe and follow; God or man? In times of ignorance God winks at when we do not know any better (James 4:17; Acts 17:30-31) but when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we choose to reject Gods Word in order to continue in our sins there remains no more sacrifice for our sins but a fearful looking forward to of judgement to come which will devour the adversaries *Hebrews 10:26-31.

According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to the scriptures (Matthew 7:21-23) and according to John need to be born again because they do not know God (see 1 John 3:4-10 compare 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures the Sabbath points back to creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and God commands us to remember it as a holy day of rest. Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath? Sorry dear friend but your theories do not agree with scripture.

Take Care.

 

[Oeste]

Thank you! You have just made my point and agreed with me and disagreed with what you posted earlier, that Exodus 20:11 is not a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3.

I should not be surprised at this. If you misunderstands scripture, it's easy to see how you would misunderstand my post.

Exodus is NOT a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3.

I do not think you have been following the conversation or the scriptures shared with you that are in direct disagreement with you.

Well, this is easy.

If you misunderstand scripture you will misunderstand why I stated this.

The 4th commandment is a SEVENTH DAY Sabbath, not a SATURDAY Sabbath.

The 4th Commandment requires and has two component parts:

1. SIX days of toil and labor​

2. ONE day of Sabbath (rest)​

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates."​

1. Remember the Sabbath day

God, in the immediate prelude, reminds the Jews he brought them out of Egypt. This is something they would have know, because it would have been communicated to them by the prior generation, the one that wandered in the wilderness.

But because they <eventually> followed His commands, He is now gifting them with 10 commands so that they don't end up in the same situation they did before...in bondage in another country. One of these gifts is the 4th commandment, which God shared with the Israelites just 3 weeks before in Exodus 16, and not with "all mankind" as you claim. So God is NOT asking them to remember something that they were not alive to remember, but something that happened just 3 weeks before. They gathered quail and manna for 6 days and rested on the 7th.

2. Six days you shall labor and do all your work

This is where our modern day "Sabbath keeper" flounder, and where the whole idea that the 4th commandment goes back to Genesis comes crashing down.

What comes first? The Sabbath or the labor?

Why it's the LABOR that comes first, followed by the Sabbath.

Now let's go back to Genesis. When was man created?

ON THE 6th DAY!

And when was God's day of rest, the one He blessed, the one He made holy?

ON THE 7th DAY!

But wait!

3rdAngel, 2ndPillar and other Sabbath keepers tell us that the COMMAND, the 4th commandment, goes back to Creation! And we can see from the creation account that man was created prior to the blessing on the 7th day!!

The 4th Commandment is VERY SPECIFIC. It requires 6 days of toil BEFORE you can rest on His Sabbath. So at the time God rested, man had only (toiled?) in the garden paradise (hey, I'm just going along with what the Sabbath keepers are telling us) for a SINGLE day. Therefore they CANNOT rest on God's 7th Day because they could not possibly have completed the first 6 days of toil required by the 4th commandment!

And our well intentioned Sabbath keeping friends are keen on telling us that we must comply with God's commandment if we are to be pleasing to Him and achieve eternal life.

But all is not lost...

the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

God rested on the 7th day, but man could not rest with Him. He had to continue toiling in the garden. God's 7th Day of rest is simply mankind's 2nd day of toil. In modern terms, using a 7 day calendar, man was created during the day on a Friday and the day of rest is Saturday. 3rdAngel assures us that the Hebrew calendar is biblical, and that a biblical day extends from sunset to sunset. So the 1st Day of man would have extended from whatever time on Friday to the evening sunset, when the 2nd day, God's day of rest, would have begun.

So mankind COULD achieve rest, he simply had to count out 6 days, and then rest on the 7th.

That 7th day would mean mankind's Sabbath is THURSDAY, but only if we kick back the 4th Commandment to creation.

This is why it make much more sense to see the 4th Commandment as pointing back to Exodus 16 and not as a Commandment pointing back to Genesis. Yes, God blessed the 7th creative day, but He never ordered its observance. Why would He when all creation was already at rest in Him?

So the blessing is in Genesis and the observance comes in Exodus.

 

[Oeste]

"Keeping" the 4th Commandment

As to your question they are irrelevant as because God has given us today His 4th commandments seventh day Sabbath which is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20) and if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments today according to Gods new covenant scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking all of Gods law (see 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11).

Well, this leads us to an interesting question: How do you keep the 4th Commandment?

It just seems to me that you are asking Christians here to bear a yolk you yourself cannot possibly keep, much like the Pharisees.

For instance, since the 4th Commandment dictates that you SHALL labor and do 6 days of work, then you cannot possibly take a two day vacation, because it's 6 days of toil for every one day of rest, and you do not recognize the eternal rest offered by our Creator, Jesus Christ.

In fact, you state the 4th Commandment is eternal and will never be fulfilled by anyone, even though your recognize Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath, able to do anything he wants with it.

Is that correct?

And since you keep the 4th, you also keep 6 days of work just as diligently?

Is this correct?

So trying to argue when God gave His 10 commandments to His people is not relevant when we have them today and God calls us to believe and obey them. That said according to the scriptures Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that God made the Sabbath for mankind and we know that God made the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 where He "blessed the seventh day" and made the "seventh day a holy day of rest".

Well that's the whole point. The Sabbath was made for mankind and all mankind had rest even in the garden. The rest was to be eternal, or at least until we sinned. There was no need for a day of rest because we were already at a state of rest in God.

But you say the 4th commandment was in effect, so obviously Adam worked and labored in the garden, and received only a single day of rest.

Currently we live in an age of grace where Christians have been blessed by God with 7 and even 14 day vacations, at least if you live in the West. All that decadence will end at God's judgement, and we will be back to our original "6 then 1" format, just like it was in paradise.

Is this correct?

So if God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a holy day of rest for all mankind what makes you think that Gods people did not know Gods laws before Exodus

I did not say God's people did know God's laws before Exodus. I just said they did not know all of them.

Honestly 3rdAngel... God wrote His commandment on the tablets, did He not? Why? If Moses knew the commandments already, why all the wait and fuss when he could just put pen to parchment and jot them down?

16 or Exodus 20? You have only provided a theory for your teaching that teaches lawlessness. According to the scriptures Gods people knew Gods laws before Exodus 16. In Genesis 25:6 we read "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Therefore lets not make excuses for sin because according to the scriptures, sin will keep all those who knowingly practice it out of Gods kingdom.

My goodness!!

Who's making excuses? All I am doing now is correcting your errors of interpretation.

Abraham obeyed God's voice, kept his charge, and all the commandments, statutes and laws God had given Him. But the 4th commandment wasn't given to Abraham. It was given to Moses.

If you disagree, then simply show us where God gave Abraham the 4th commandment. As it is, it makes one think you are making excuses to place us under the yoke of the Law rather than the yoke of Christ.

Also, as I've asked before, it might help if you could articulate just how you are "keeping" the 4th Commandment.

Adam did not have to keep the 4th commandment. He had to obey God, and when he didn't he was expunged from the garden. He had to obey the Father. He could not possible have complied with the 5th commandment to honor his Mother and Father because he had no mother to honor.

So I think it's a safe bet this Commandment wasn't given to either Adam or Eve. It must have came later, like many of the other commandments.

Do you agree?

I have more, but my wrist are tired. This will be continued.

 

[3rdAngel]

I should not be surprised at this. If you misunderstands scripture, it's easy to see how you would misunderstand my post. Exodus is NOT a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3. Well, this is easy. If you misunderstand scripture you will misunderstand why I stated this. The 4th commandment is a SEVENTH DAY Sabbath, not a SATURDAY Sabbath. The 4th Commandment requires and has two component parts:1. SIX days of toil and labor 2. ONE day of Sabbath (rest) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates." 1. Remember the Sabbath day God, in the immediate prelude, reminds the Jews he brought them out of Egypt. This is something they would have know, because it would have been communicated to them by the prior generation, the one that wandered in the wilderness. But because they <eventually> followed His commands, He is now gifting them with 10 commands so that they don't end up in the same situation they did before...in bondage in another country. One of these gifts is the 4th commandment, which God shared with the Israelites just 3 weeks before in Exodus 16, and not with "all mankind" as you claim. So God is NOT asking them to remember something that they were not alive to remember, but something that happened just 3 weeks before. They gathered quail and manna for 6 days and rested on the 7th. 2. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. This is where our modern day "Sabbath keeper" flounder, and where the whole idea that the 4th commandment goes back to Genesis comes crashing down.

Trouble is I did not misunderstand you. I quoted you, claiming that Exodus 20:8-11 does not point back to Genesis 2:1-3 while proving from the scriptures that Exodus 20:8-11 is indeed pointing back to Genesis 2:1-3. So lets be honest here. If you make a mistake just own it as your posts here only proves it is you that does not understand scripture and that Exodus 20:11 is a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3 that is in disagreement with you. Exodus 20:8 is God telling is to "Remember" that is pointing backwards not forwards to things to come. Remember is a memorial to remember the Sabbath to to keep it holy with the reason given in Exodus 20:11 that says, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and made it holy." The only place in scripture that tells us that God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a holy day of rest is found in Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. So as proven here Gods words disagrees with you dear friend. Receive Gods correction and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear.

What comes first? The Sabbath or the labor? Why it's the LABOR that comes first, followed by the Sabbath, Now let's go back to Genesis. When was man created? ON THE 6th DAY! And when was God's day of rest, the one He blessed, the one He made holy? ON THE 7th DAY!But wait! 3rdAngel, 2ndPillar and other Sabbath keepers tell us that the COMMAND, the 4th commandment, goes back to Creation! And we can see from the creation account that man was created prior to the blessing on the 7th day!! The 4th Commandment is VERY SPECIFIC. It requires 6 days of toil BEFORE you can rest on His Sabbath. So at the time God rested, man had only (toiled?) in the garden paradise (hey, I'm just going along with what the Sabbath keepers are telling us) for a SINGLE day. Therefore they CANNOT rest on God's 7th Day because they could not possibly have completed the first 6 days of toil required by the 4th commandment! And our well intentioned Sabbath keeping friends are keen on telling us that we must comply with God's commandment if we are to be pleasing to Him and achieve eternal life.
But all is not lost...the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God God rested on the 7th day, but man could not rest with Him. He had to continue toiling in the garden. God's 7th Day of rest is simply mankind's 2nd day of toil. In modern terms, using a 7 day calendar, man was created during the day on a Friday and the day of rest is Saturday. 3rdAngel assures us that the Hebrew calendar is biblical, and that a biblical day extends from sunset to sunset. So the 1st Day of man would have extended from whatever time on Friday to the evening sunset, when the 2nd day, God's day of rest, would have begun. So mankind COULD achieve rest, he simply had to count out 6 days, and then rest on the 7th. That 7th day would mean mankind's Sabbath is THURSDAY, but only if we kick back the 4th Commandment to creation This is why it make much more sense to see the 4th Commandment as pointing back to Exodus 16 and not as a Commandment pointing back to Genesis. Yes, God blessed the 7th creative day, but He never ordered its observance. Why would He when all creation was already at rest in Him? So the blessing is in Genesis and the observance comes in Exodus.

Seriously? Who labored during the creation week was it God or man? Who rested after the creation week was finished and what day did God bless and make a holy day of rest? Here let me provide the answers from scripture again for you.

• Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So as proven here Gods words disagrees with you dear friend. Receive Gods correction and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear and once again lets finish this one off. What day is the Sabbath day according to the scriptures?

• Exodus 20:10 10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God...

Now look at the scriptures dear friend. You say the Sabbath day is any day. God says the Sabbath day is the "seventh day" and points back to creation in Exodus 20:11 to Genesis 2:1-3 where God rested after His work of creation and blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a holy day of rest. So it is very clear here that Gods Word disagrees with your words and you are misquoting scripture.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

"Keeping" the 4th Commandment Well, this leads us to an interesting question: How do you keep the 4th Commandment? It just seems to me that you are asking Christians here to bear a yolk you yourself cannot possibly keep, much like the Pharisees. For instance, since the 4th Commandment dictates that you SHALL labor and do 6 days of work, then you cannot possibly take a two day vacation, because it's 6 days of toil for every one day of rest, and you do not recognize the eternal rest offered by our Creator, Jesus Christ. In fact, you state the 4th Commandment is eternal and will never be fulfilled by anyone, even though your recognize Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath, able to do anything he wants with it. Is that correct? And since you keep the 4th, you also keep 6 days of work just as diligently? Is this correct?
Well that's the whole point. The Sabbath was made for mankind and all mankind had rest even in the garden. The rest was to be eternal, or at least until we sinned. There was no need for a day of rest because we were already at a state of rest in God. But you say the 4th commandment was in effect, so obviously Adam worked and labored in the garden, and received only a single day of rest. Currently we live in an age of grace where Christians have been blessed by God with 7 and even 14 day vacations, at least if you live in the West. All that decadence will end at God's judgement, and we will be back to our original "6 then 1" format, just like it was in paradise. Is this correct? I did not say God's people did know God's laws before Exodus. I just said they did not know all of them. Honestly 3rdAngel... God wrote His commandment on the tablets, did He not? Why? If Moses knew the commandments already, why all the wait and fuss when he could just put pen to parchment and jot them down? My goodness!! Who's making excuses? All I am doing now is correcting your errors of interpretation. Abraham obeyed God's voice, kept his charge, and all the commandments, statutes and laws God had given Him. But the 4th commandment wasn't given to Abraham. It was given to Moses. If you disagree, then simply show us where God gave Abraham the 4th commandment. As it is, it makes one think you are making excuses to place us under the yoke of the Law rather than the yoke of Christ. Also, as I've asked before, it might help if you could articulate just how you are "keeping" the 4th Commandment. Adam did not have to keep the 4th commandment. He had to obey God, and when he didn't he was expunged from the garden. He had to obey the Father. He could not possible have complied with the 5th commandment to honor his Mother and Father because he had no mother to honor. So I think it's a safe bet this Commandment wasn't given to either Adam or Eve. It must have came later, like many of the other commandments. Do you agree? I have more, but my wrist are tired. This will be continued.

No as posted all through this thread there is nothing you have posted here that is correct or supported in the scriptures. Did you notice you did not address a single thing or any scripture in the post you are quoting from that is in disagreement with you? This is quite telling don't you think? Lets be honest dear friend and not make excuses for sin.

Sin is defined as the transgression of Gods law (1 John 3:4) and not believing and following what Gods Word says in Romans 14:23; Matthew 7:21-23. The testing question coming to each one of us will be who do we believe and follow; God or man? In times of ignorance God winks at when we do not know any better (James 4:17; Acts 17:30-31) but when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we choose to reject Gods Word in order to continue in our sins there remains no more sacrifice for our sins but a fearful looking forward to of judgement to come which will devour the adversaries *Hebrews 10:26-31.

Where does it say in the scriptures that mankind (Gods people) did not have to observe the Sabbath at creation? Please provide scripture or all your providing is your theory to justify sin. Even if your theory is true it does not mean that we are to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath when God tells us in the 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken to forget and break His 4th commandment now does it? But to be honest and frank with you it is pretty naive to try and argue Gods people before the 10 commandments were give did not know and practice God's law when it is written in Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Therefore lets not make excuses for sin.

According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to the scriptures (Matthew 7:21-23) and according to John need to be born again because they do not know God (see 1 John 3:4-10 compare 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures the Sabbath points back to creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and God commands us to remember it as a holy day of rest. Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath? Sorry dear friend but your theories do not agree with scripture.

Take Care.

 

[Oeste]

"Keeping" the 4th Commandment​

We have been advised that we should keep the 4th commandment, lest we experience the wrath of God:

According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to the scriptures (Matthew 7:21-23) and according to John need to be born again because they do not know God (see 1 John 3:4-10 compare 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures the Sabbath points back to creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and God commands us to remember it as a holy day of rest.

So I'd like to know just what kind of 7 day Sabbath we are suppose to "keep". Is it the God ordained 7 Day Sabbath, or is it some sort of hybrid?

Well let's take a look at how God wants us to keep His 7 Day Sabbath, and then we can ask @3rdAngel and @2ndpillar if they keep it the same way.
Perhaps there are "mitigating" factors that they haven't told us about.

It is Exodus 16 when God first mentions his 7 day Sabbath. He communicates it to Moses who then communicates it to all of Israel:

​

Exodus 16:15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.​

Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Everyone is to gather as much as they need. Take an omer[a] for each person you have in your tent.’”....​

​

Exodus 16:21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers[b] for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”​

That's our first account. Six days they toiled and gathered, and on the 7th they could rest. We all know what happened. On the 7th Day, despite God's command, many in Israel did not rest. They treated it as any other day. But God holds HIs anger and shows grace instead:

Exodus 16:27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you[c] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.​

God reprimands the Jews for not following instructions. They were not "keeping the Sabbath" as he had asked. The following Sabbaths they did.

In Exodus 20, God gives His commandment, including the 4th. Now there is no excuse. Now there is Law. Now there is punishment. What's a law without punishment? Well, it's like a jaywalking law on an empty street. The law may be on the books, but no one enforces the law.

Not so with the 4th commandment! The 4th commandment is not simply a law to the individual, it's a law unto all of Israel, and as our Sabbath keepers have reminded us, it's a law for all mankind. There's room for grace, or an inadvertent stumble, but when you are informed and purposely break the 4th commandment the punishment is severe:

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath​

Numbers 15: 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.​

​

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.​

The last thing we want to do is intentionally break a Sabbath, but actually "keeping" the Sabbath, "keeping" the 4th commandment, means enforcing it. Otherwise you are NOT keeping the Sabbath the way God commanded, You are simply paying lip service to it.

Surely our Sabbath keepers "keep the Sabbath" rather than "X" a day on their calendar. If someone deliberately breaks the Sabbath, the congregation gathers, invite the wrong-doer out back, and enforce the Sabbath just as God intended.

Is this correct, or is this more of "Do as I say, not as I do"? A talking point to elevate or differentiate Christians, and nothing more?

 

[3rdAngel]

"Keeping" the 4th Commandment

We have been advised that we should keep the 4th commandment, lest we experience the wrath of God: So I'd like to know just what kind of 7 day Sabbath we are suppose to "keep". Is it the God ordained 7 Day Sabbath, or is it some sort of hybrid? Well let's take a look at how God wants us to keep His 7 Day Sabbath, and then we can ask @3rdAngel and @2ndpillar if they keep it the same way. Perhaps there are "mitigating" factors that they haven't told us about. It is Exodus 16 when God first mentions his 7 day Sabbath. He communicates it to Moses who then communicates it to all of Israel: Exodus 16:15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Everyone is to gather as much as they need. Take an omer[a] for each person you have in your tent.’”.... Exodus 16:21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.” That's our first account. Six days they toiled and gathered, and on the 7th they could rest. We all know what happened. On the 7th Day, despite God's command, many in Israel did not rest. They treated it as any other day. But God holds HIs anger and shows grace instead: Exodus 16:27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you[c] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

No. Jesus says that God made the Sabbath for mankind in Mark 2:27 and the making of the Sabbath for mankind where God blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day of the week a holy day for all mankind is found in Genesis 2:1-3.

God reprimands the Jews for not following instructions. They were not "keeping the Sabbath" as he had asked. The following Sabbaths they did. In Exodus 20, God gives His commandment, including the 4th. Now there is no excuse. Now there is Law. Now there is punishment. What's a law without punishment? Well, it's like a jaywalking law on an empty street. The law may be on the books, but no one enforces the law.

According to the scriptures it is written that through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and that sin is the breaking or transgression of Gods law in 1 John 3:4. So in order for Gods people to know what sin is they must have known what Gods law was before Mt Sinai in order to practice the laws of sin atonement through animal sacrifices and sin offerings (see Genesis 22:2-13; Genesis 31:54). In Genesis 26:5 (before Mt Sinai) we also read that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Not so with the 4th commandment! The 4th commandment is not simply a law to the individual, it's a law unto all of Israel, and as our Sabbath keepers have reminded us, it's a law for all mankind. There's room for grace, or an inadvertent stumble, but when you are informed and purposely break the 4th commandment the punishment is severe: Penalty for Violating the Sabbath Numbers 15: 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. The last thing we want to do is intentionally break a Sabbath, but actually "keeping" the Sabbath, "keeping" the 4th commandment, means enforcing it. Otherwise you are NOT keeping the Sabbath the way God commanded, You are simply paying lip service to it. Surely our Sabbath keepers "keep the Sabbath" rather than "X" a day on their calendar. If someone deliberately breaks the Sabbath, the congregation gathers, invite the wrong-doer out back, and enforce the Sabbath just as God intended. Is this correct, or is this more of "Do as I say, not as I do"? A talking point to elevate or differentiate Christians, and nothing more?

You do err not knowing the scriptures. According to the scriptures, in the old covenant in the book of the law of Moses the death penalty was given to anyone who was caught openly breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments. This was to teach Gods people that the wages of sin is death just like it does in the new covenant scriptures (see Romans 6:23). The same death penalty was given to anyone who was caught breaking 1st Commandment (Exodus 20:3), Thou shalt have no other gods before me (Deuteronomy 17:1-5; 14:6-10; Exodus 22:20); 2nd Commandment, (Exodus 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any idols (Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 27: 15); 3rd Commandment (Exodus 20:7), Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain (Leviticus 24:16); 4th Commandment Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11) see Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2; 5th commandment (Exodus 20:12) honor your father and mother see Exodus 21:15-17; 6th commandment thou shalt not kill (Exodus 20:13) see Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:31-33; 7th commandment thou shalt not commit Adultery (Exodus 20:14) see Leviticus 20:10; John 8:3-5; 8th Commandment thou shall not steal (Exodus 20:15) but only applied to man stealing or kidnapping (Exodus 21:16); 9th commandment (Exodus 20:16) thou shall not bear false witness see Deuteronomy 19:15-21 and the 10th commandments thou shall not covet (Exodus 20:17) see Joshua 7:21-25.

This of course all ceased during the time of Christ when Israel was under Roman rule and law and at the death of Christ bringing an end to the old covenant and the bringing in of the new covenant. The death penalty is still in force today because it is written that the wages of sin is death for those that do not repent before the time of judgement is finished (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12) but enforcement of the death penalty does not take place until the second coming (see Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8 etc etc)

The only difference today is that we are in the new covenant now so we no longer put people to open death because we are not in the physical nation of Israel in the flesh or under the old covenant civil laws of Israel. The death penalty for sin is still the same however for those who reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23 but Jesus says now that Vengeance is mine and his reward will be with him at the 2nd coming *Romans 12:19-21; Revelation 22:12. God's Word does not teach or support the false doctrine of lawlessness (without law) and Gods' 4th commandment in the new covenant is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:8-10; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to the scriptures (Matthew 7:21-23) and according to John need to be born again because they do not know God (see 1 John 3:4-10 compare 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures the Sabbath points back to creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and God commands us to remember it as a holy day of rest. Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath? Sorry dear friend but your theories do not agree with scripture.

Receive Gods Word and be blessed dear friend. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

 

[Brian2]

Peter was very strict as to Jewish Law. That is why his followers, the Jews, were thrown out of Rome by Nero, because he and his Jewish followers clashed with Paul and his Gentile followers and caused disruption in Nero's kingdom. Peter's eating "vision" was simply the fulfilling of Zechariah 13:4-8, and Isaiah 22:15-25. Peter was the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17. You wouldn't find Peter eating mice or swine. Peter was simply a challenged figure, as is his supposed heir, the pope. They were both born to fail/"fall". (Isaiah 22:15-25)

So do you and @3rdAngel come from the same group?

 

[3rdAngel]

So do you and @3rdAngel come from the same group?

No, see post # 643 linked.

 

[pearl]

As for the last supper, well, it is the imagery of the "bread of life",

John 6:22-68

 

[Windwalker]

As you know, I find no value in holy books. You say you do, as do many others, but they can't give me anything specific that I would call valuable to me.

Yes, not in the way you read the beatitudes you wouldn't, for instance. I wouldn't either. But seriously, there can be depending upon which perspective you are looking at it from. Different perspectives yield different results. But that's true of anything in life actually.

I do find value in metaphor as you saw with the plankton-nekton metaphor, but I also question the use of the words metaphor and allegory when referring to myths. Why aren't they called wrong guesses, which is what all creation myths are? Metaphor and allegory are specified literary forms, like haiku. Why not call the myths haikus? The answer probably is because they don't meet the criteria for haikus. But they also don't match the description of metaphor or allegory.

This is an important distinction that I think results in a communication failure that happens. It's not just your view of what a metaphor is as simply a literary device in a paragraph, it also applies to understanding the nature of what mythology is and how in functions. To the mythic-literalist, to refer to scripture's stories as "mythologies", in their minds they hear "lies", or falsehoods. Likewise, metaphors mean much more than the way you are understanding them.

Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell? I would think you would be as he is a bit of a household name, considering "The Power of Myth" series that airs on PBS during fundraising seasons periodically. The use of the term metaphor is extended beyond just its uses in language in a sentence. It is used in the broader sense of the words representing something beyond themselves. To share some quotes from Wiki on him which I'll highlight to help explain what I mean:

As a strong believer in the psychic unity of mankind and its poetic expression through mythology, Campbell made use of the concept to express the idea that the whole of the human race can be seen as engaged in the effort of making the world "transparent to transcendence" by showing that underneath the world of phenomena lies an eternal source which is constantly pouring its energies into this world of time, suffering, and ultimately death. To achieve this task one needs to speak about things that existed before and beyond words, a seemingly impossible task, the solution to which lies in the metaphors found in myths. These metaphors are statements that point beyond themselves into the transcendent. The Hero's Journey was the story of the man or woman who, through great suffering, reached an experience of the eternal source and returned with gifts powerful enough to set their society free.​

​

As this story spread through space and evolved through time, it was broken down into various local forms (masks), depending on the social structures and environmental pressures that existed for the culture that interpreted it. The basic structure, however, has remained relatively unchanged and can be classified using the various stages of a hero's adventure through the story, stages such as the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meeting with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. These stages, as well as the symbols one encounters throughout the story, provide the necessary metaphors to express the spiritual truths the story is trying to convey. Metaphors for Campbell, in contrast with similes which make use of the word like, pretend to a literal interpretation of what they are referring to, as in the sentence "Jesus is the Son of God" rather than "the relationship of man to God is like that of a son to a father".[46]​

​

In the 1987 documentary Joseph Campbell: A Hero's Journey, he explains God in terms of a metaphor:​

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God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought, even the categories of being and non-being. Those are categories of thought. I mean it's as simple as that. So it depends on how much you want to think about it. Whether it's doing you any good. Whether it is putting you in touch with the mystery that's the ground of your own being. If it isn't, well, it's a lie. So half the people in the world are religious people who think that their metaphors are facts. Those are what we call theists. The other half are people who know that the metaphors are not facts. And so, they're lies. Those are the atheists.[47]​

This is one example of how the understanding of metaphors in common usage, extend to greater lengths and depths. In the case of religious language, the stories and the phrases and the teachings themselves are all metaphors for to point to the transcendent. A favorite quote of mine is from E.H. W. Myerstein, "Myth is my tongue, which means not that I cheat, but stagger in a light too great to bear."

These are metaphors to express what is too great to express in mere descriptors of language. You can also find this understanding of myths and symbols and metaphors in the field of Semiotics: The Historical Nature of Myth.

So the use of metaphor extends to how we as humans speak of reality using language. It applies to science, as well as to religion. It applies to our very notions of truth and reality itself. It's not just the way you use of few words in a sentence. It's the way you use language to speak of your visions or perspectives of reality itself.

Myths don't do that, but it seems that almost nobody wants to call a myth a wrong guess, so they use these other words.

Reducing these stories of old, or even of present to "wrong guesses" is itself a very wrong guess. They weren't asking scientific questions in the way we think in scientific terms. They were not seeking rational constructs to explain natural phenomena. They did provide a language about their experience of reality and questions they may have had, but they were not investigative in nature, trying to understand through data collection and analysis. That is a much, much later development in human evolutionary history.

That doesn't make them non-Christian to me. That's what some Christians do - many, in fact - and it in part characterizes Christianity and the church.

I would say it is indicative of dysfunction within the religion, yet. I had someone say to me before that the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity is a sign of the implosion of the middle. That is really an accurate understanding. Think of it like a great rock dropping into a pond. The shockwaves of that implosion rise up and spread out in waves.

The stability of mass of mainstream religious life, collapsing as modernity takes over, and the result is fragmentations of desperation and every little cult of personality rising up, claiming they have the real truth to hang on to, such as this entire OP and it's 7th Day restoration movement, or tongues talkers in the Pentecostals, or the Non-trinitarian Jehovah's Witness sects, ad infinitum.

But where I see all of this related to those who are actually trying to be sincere in the faith versus those who aren't, is that while you may have every little cult of personality, charismatic leaders starting a movement in their idea of "that old time religion" (meaning basic traditionalism in the face of modernity), individuals caught up into the splintered mess of Christian cults, may in fact have some genuine or authentic spiritual experience or at least desires.

So it's really not the groups, as one cannot control always what you end up in due to family or availability, but that dividing line between a sincere faith, and an egoic self-seeking and self-serving, is what is the dividing to the sheep from the goats, to use that metaphor here. "By their fruits you shall know them" to me remains the best, truest, and surest way to assess the value of someone's faith to them, even it if is in some 7th Day cult of personality sect born as the collapse of mainstream gave birth to it and its many siblings in its shockwaves

Assuming that they're not all beginners, you can decide how well that instructor generates martial artists, just as I judge how well the various religions and denominations generate people.

I would agree with that. If I saw a group of students of a Tai Chi studio where no one grasped even the basics, including the instructor, then I would say that's a bad school. Same thing with these fundamentalist churches. If it's nothing but a bunch of culture-war zealots using the name of Jesus as a weapon against those that they hate, then I'd say that is not a valid studio. If someone want to learn good kungfu, they need to find another church (mixing my metaphors deliberately there for effect. )

Our friend 2nd pillar is a good example of what I mean. He's a product of Christianity

No. I would not say he is a product of Christianity, in the sense of the fruit of it. I think he is kind of his own thing, creating his own religion in his own name, because for whatever reason he couldn't fit in anywhere. I've asked him about his views, and his answers to me indicate this. He will not name any affiliations, and his views are quite peculiar to himself, aside from happening to cherry pick what he likes from the 7th Day Adventist sect.

He's welcome to comment upon my thoughts here, of course. I'm not meaning to exclude him from a discussion of his views here.

even if many other Christians would have a problem with his "witness" and say that he's not a true Christian if he's going to post as he does, but I would argue with them in his defense. He's as true a Christian to me as anybody else who believes that Jesus is who it is said he is.

You see, I quit associating what is Christian, with what is considered orthodox beliefs a long time ago. I see Christian, as a philosophy that transcends all and any religious association. I would say that many atheists are more Christian that any of these religious zealots who bang the bible and preach their idea about God to others to try to save them from their wrong beliefs.

Being a Christian means being like what Jesus modeled. And he did not model that sort of behavior. He modeled forgiveness, grace, compassion, distributive justice (as opposed to retributive justice), kindness, etc. You know, those good "humanist" qualities you espouse.

So to me, Christian is a spiritual attitude of the heart that transcends all religions. With that understanding, "An atheist will enter the kingdom of heaven before the religionist, who strains and religious gnats, while swallowing whole the camel of hypocrisy," to paraphrase accurately Jesus's saying in Matthew 21:31

 

[Windwalker]

No you do not. I have made myself clear in many posts to you by providing scripture that is direct disagreement with your words.

You have not once answered my direct question to you. Do you believe your interpretations of scripture are infallible? Yes, or No?

The fact you continue to evade or ignore that direct question, says strongly to everyone that in fact you do think that, and are unwilling to openly state so because you know others will see how delusion that is. Prove me wrong.

you cherry pick scripture to promote your teachings of lawlessness

What lawlesses do I teach? You are not answering that question either. What sin is it you accuse me of. Why are you avoiding answering this? Is it because you know how ridiculous you know you will sound directly answering it?

you are twisting scripture to say what scripture has never said.

No I'm not. I'm just seeing in them what you are blinded to because of the lens or the "glass darkly" that you filter the words through. I see what they are saying quite well, read through the lens of Love and Grace (which you likely call "lawlessness" - so it's no wonder you don't answer that direct question. Grace or unconditional love to you is understood as "lawlessness" in your thinking).

Your response to all my posts is to ignore the post content and the scriptures that are in direct disagreement with you and micro-quote what I post out of context

Once again, rather than getting bogged down repeating myself, I summarize and do a surgical strike to the source of the error that encompasses everything else. I am not quote-mining (the correct name for the logical fallacy you falsely accuse me of), rather, I am being efficient.

to all the supporting scriptures that have been shared with you in order to seek to justify your sins.

Again, with you accusing me of trying to "justify my sins". What sins are you accusing me of??? Again, you need to answer this. I have a right to face my accuser. So what sin are you accusing me of? Or is this just you libeling me with a false accusation in order to make it sound like my argument has no weight because it's coming from a selfish desire to justify my supposed sinful behaviors? This is of course, pure rubbish.

Yes, I know the answer to this as well. It's all you doing that classic logic fallacy of an ad hominem attack. When you know you're a shaky ground with your opponent in a debate, start attacking them personally as a distraction from the weakness of your position. You accuse me of quote-mining, yet your continued use of ad-hominem attacks are a betrayal that you know you are in a weaker position. Whether you are blind to that or not does change that others can see it. I certainly do.

So, before I discuss Romans 14 with you, and your gross misunderstandings of it, I made that discussion with you dependent upon you coming to me treating me with respect and discussing maturely with me. If you refuse to answer the above questions, then you are not in fact being sincere or respectful to me in this discussion. In summary here are my questions I have ask many times now, and insist upon answers at this point:

1. Are your interpretations of scripture infallible? Yes or no?
2. Do you see me or anyone else who disagrees with your reading of the Bible as an act of sin, or an act of mocking God Himself?
3. When I ever taught lawlessness?
4. What sins are you accusing me of, that you claim my reading of scripture to justify or excuse?
5. Bonus Question: Are you God that you can judge me or others who disagree with you?

As I said, I will happily rebut your interpretation of Romans 14 above, which I greatly disagree with, once you answer the above questions honestly. I'm not avoiding answering you. The above questions are the conditions you need to meet first of showing me respect, indicating you can be honest with yourself going forward.

Thank you.