WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[nPeace]

Thank you for asking @nPeace, but the answer is unfortunately no. I'm still trying to find out when God first instructed man to OBSERVE the 7th Day. As you reminded us, 3rdAngel's contention is that mankind was COMMANDED to observe it since the 7th creative day.

He's been very good at showing us God rested and blessed the 7th Day, just not so much on when man was first COMMANDED to OBSERVE it. For that, it seems we have to go to Exodus, but @3rdAngel disagrees.

But like you, @Brian2, @Windwalker and others I am really making an effort to understand the scriptural rationale our Sabbath keeping friends have yoked themselves into.

In my ministry, if an Adventist cannot use the Bible, to answer my questions, it's a que to not go any further.
I have helped a Adventist simply by using questions. They thought about the answers, that stared them in the face.
It's easy to overlook something you don't want to face.

 

[Oeste]

Trouble is I did not misunderstand you. I quoted you, claiming that Exodus 20:8-11 does not point back to Genesis 2:1-3 while proving from the scriptures that Exodus 20:8-11 is indeed pointing back to Genesis 2:1-3.

No, you did no such. You CLAIM it points back to Genesis 2:1-3, and that's about it.

God tell the Israelites to REMEMBER the 7 day Sabbath he gave them just a few weeks prior. All you have to do is read Exodus 16!!!

That was the FIRST 7-day Sabbath that MAN celebrated. There was no 7 day Sabbath man was required to observe before then. You find this in Exodus 16, and NOT in Genesis!

We will demonstrate this in a moment.

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and made it holy."

That's right 3rdAngel!

But I want you to note the word you have capitalized. It's the "LORD".

The LORD did the work the first 6 days, NOT MAN.

So man could not possibly have "remembered" working 6 days because man was not around for the first 5.

Man was created on the 6th Day. God rested on the 7th. Man simply rested with Him, because mankind was in God's rest.

There is no need for MAN to take a rest in the Garden when GOD has done all the work. We simply rest with Him.

Now if Man had been around for the first 5 days them yeah, you might have a valid point. Dragging the 4th commandment and bolting it to creation would make a bit more sense then.


So WE WERE AT REST IN THE GARDEN and did not come into a state of UNREST until we sinned.

The only place in scripture that tells us that God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a holy day of rest is found in Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. So as proven here Gods words disagrees with you dear friend. Receive Gods correction and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear.

Read it again my friend. God does the first 6 days of work in Genesis, and God rests (ceases His creative work) on the 7th.

In Exodus, it is MAN who must work 6 days, and it is MAN who takes the 7th.

This is not the same at all. We cannot compare the works of man with the work of God.

Seriously? Who labored during the creation week was it God or man? Who rested after the creation week was finished and what day did God bless and make a holy day of rest? Here let me provide the answers from scripture again for you.

As stated, it was God who labored during the 6 day creation period. As for who rested, it was God.

But we're talking about the 4th Commandment, remember? The 4th Commandment was given to the Jews, not to God.

And what does the 4th Commandment say? Why, it says we are to toil and labor for the 6 days, but rest on the 7th.

So the 4th commandment could not possibly have been in effect at the time of creation. God rested on the 7th, Man was created on the 6th, and would have had to work until Wednesday, 6 days, before he could rest on the 7th. Resting the next day simply because it was SATURDAY, as you claim, would have been a big no-no.

God worked 6 days, so man works 6 days. God rests on the 7th, so man rests on the 7th. But if we drag the 4th Commandment backward, there is no rest for man on Day 7. Why? Because the 4th commandment imposes a 6 day labor period before rest can begin:

Sunday Day 1	Monday/Day 2	Tuesday/Day 3	Wednesday/Day 4	Thursday Day5	Friday/Day 6	Saturday/ Day 7
God works	God works	God works	God works	God works	God creates man	God rests
Man doesn't exist	Man nonexistent	Man nonexistent	Man nonexistent	Man nonexistent	Man works day 1	Man works day 2
Man works day 3	Man works day 4	Man works day 5	Man works day 6	Man rests	Man works day 1	Man works day 2

Do you see the problem?

Our Sabbath would be THURSDAY if this theory were correct.

God works 6 days then rests, but man has only worked 2 days at this point. He needs to work another 4 before he can relax.

To be honest, the idea of working eternally 6 days with only 1 day of rest does not seem particularly appetizing to me. But our Sabbath keeping friends assure us this is an eternal arrangement, so we may be in the "good ol' days" now, with a 5 day work-week, because we'll have to work 6 in their conception of paradise.

 

[Windwalker]

But like you, @Brian2, @Windwalker and others I am really making an effort to understand the scriptural rationale our Sabbath keeping friends have yoked themselves into.

I take a different view of the rationale for the fixation upon that one commandment as of such grave importance to some people. I look at it from a 30,000 foot perspective of motivations, rather than getting ensnared in endless quibblings over scriptural texts, which is the favorite playground for those with legalistic bents to escape into like B'ar Rabbit trying to be let loose into the briar patch.

There are a great many thorns and brambles and thickets to twist and turn around and escape within doing that. All of which are intentional distractions at the subconscious or even conscious level to avoid dealing with the "weightier matters of the law". All of that is a self-deceptive escape attempt from the more difficult path of self-examination and surrender, or facing the spiritual interior core of our selves. It is far easier to keep external rules, than to look within and face the truth of ourselves.

That is the core issue of legalism. It looks to make clean the outside of the cup, because that is far easier to lie to ourselves we have cleaned house, while never once deep cleaning in those hidden closets within and facing ourselves. That is what I see such a large focus of Jesus' teachings were about, especially portrayed in his interactions with the Pharisees, who represented the legalists, who strained and gnats, while swallowing camels.

Jesus quite clearly taught in Mark, in exactly that interaction with the legalists of his day about the sabbath and the true value of it. It was not for God. It was not because it mattered to God. He explicitly says this. And yet, here we are 37 pages of discussion later, still not understanding his words with those not understanding what Jesus meant and insisting against what Jesus said, that the sabbath is of paramount importance to God. If it were, then the Pharisees were right, and Jesus was wrong! Just read the story and see: Mark 2:23-27.

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”​

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He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”​

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Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.​

He is saying that the 7th day was to give man a day of rest. Not because God considered it sacred to himself. Man was not made for the Sabbath. If the legalists are right, then man was made for the Sabbath, and to not keep it to a T, would be a sin against God. Yet, here was Jesus and his disciples, violating the Sabbath, according the legalists, and he attempts to show them how these commandments are not to be used as bludgeons against others. Yet, that is exactly what is being done in this thread.

I have been called a mocker of God. I have been called lawless. A teacher of lawlessness. A denier of God. A sinner. Judged by God. And so forth. I am in good company then, since in the stories in the gospels, these were what the legalists were attacking Jesus with for not making the letter of the law of paramount importance either, letting his disciples pick grain on the Sabbath. He was called lawless as well. A friend of sinners. Casting out devils by the power of the devil, and the like.

The pattern is the same. Legalism has the same source. And it is this. The human ego. Shame, guilt, denial, blame, self-righteousness, and the like, all trying to avoid facing the truth deep inside, terrified and afraid of facing themselves, honestly, face to face with the Infinite, where everything that is hidden is brought into the light, all our self-loathings and shames and guilts and fears. All of it. It is absolutely terrifying to face God, when we are filled with fear

Grace and unconditional love is something foreign to many people, especially if they never have experienced in their lives with their own families growing up, which many have not. Everything has always had to be earned. It is a lack of knowledge of what Grace is, and the inability because of that to accept it. Legalism is form of spiritual avoidance, or "spiritual bypassing" to use that term. It is as Jesus termed it, "climbing in another way." That other way, is the human ego.

All of it boils down to this: Grace vs. the Law. Legalists only understand the latter, and as such everything they read in scripture has to fit what they understand, because that is all they know, and all they can see at this point. That's the 30,000 foot perspective, or the "God's eye view" of the matter.

As it says so well in that cartoon I've shared several times, the difference between the legalist and Grace is, that the legalist uses scripture to determine what love is, but Grace uses love to determine what scripture means. It all comes down to the eyes through which we read the texts.

 

[Oeste]

According to the scriptures it is written that through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and that sin is the breaking or transgression of Gods law in 1 John 3:4. So in order for Gods people to know what sin is they must have known what Gods law was before Mt Sinai in order to practice the laws of sin atonement through animal sacrifices and sin offerings (see Genesis 22:2-13; Genesis 31:54). In Genesis 26:5 (before Mt Sinai) we also read that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That's correct, but it says nothing about the 4th commandment. There is no time paradox here. Abraham could not keep a 7th day Sabbath given to Moses hundreds of years later.

God did bless the 7th creative day. We really have no idea how long those days were. It could have been 24 hours or thousands of years.

No. Jesus says that God made the Sabbath for mankind in Mark 2:27 and the making of the Sabbath for mankind where God blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day of the week a holy day for all mankind is found in Genesis 2:1-3.

You claim mankind was COMMANDED to observe the 4th commandment at Genesis 2:1-3.

That's the part you're not posting. We need to see the COMMAND, just like we do in Exodus, without the need to squint our eyes and look at a verse sideways.

According to the scriptures it is written that through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and that sin is the breaking or transgression of Gods law in 1 John 3:4. So in order for Gods people to know what sin is they must have known what Gods law was before Mt Sinai in order to practice the laws of sin atonement through animal sacrifices and sin offerings (see Genesis 22:2-13; Genesis 31:54). In Genesis 26:5 (before Mt Sinai) we also read that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Yes he did.

But you are reading into the book of Genesis a 4th Commandment that is not there.

Look, in the U.S. we have President's Day as a legal holiday but that does not mean you can trace President's Day back to George Washington.

We also have Veteran's day, but that doesn't mean business have been honoring the day off since the Revolutionary War.

You do err not knowing the scriptures. According to the scriptures, in the old covenant in the book of the law of Moses the death penalty was given to anyone who was caught openly breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments. This was to teach Gods people that the wages of sin is death just like it does in the new covenant scriptures (see Romans 6:23). The same death penalty was given to anyone who was caught breaking 1st Commandment (Exodus 20:3),

Did I say something different?

The 4th Commandment was part of the law. The penalty was death for anyone who repeatedly broke it. That how the nation of Israel kept its Law.

This of course all ceased during the time of Christ when Israel was under Roman rule and law and at the death of Christ bringing an end to the old covenant and the bringing in of the new covenant.

Not according to you.

You state the 4th Commandment is still in effect. You also state you are keeping the 4th Commandment. You did not mention you kept it only when it was convenient.

If the Law is still in effect, then the punishment for breaking it is still in effect otherwise you are lawless. There is no law without punishment. If you want to keep the Law then you have to keep all of that Law, You can't pick and choose the parts you don't like.

The death penalty is still in force today because it is written that the wages of sin is death for those that do not repent before the time of judgement is finished (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12) but enforcement of the death penalty does not take place until the second coming (see Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8 etc etc)

I'm not understanding your point here since the penalty was also in effect at the time of Moses and has been since Adam sinned. As to the enforcement of the death penalty, God did not tell Israel to wait until His second coming.

Everyone will stand before Jesus 3rdAngel. If you are not enforcing God's laws, you are not keeping them.

Look, if I work as a guard at a bank, and each day a few employees dip their hands into the till, running out just before closing with a bag full of money, am I keeping the law against theft? For that matter, am I keeping my job?

Anyone can say there is a law on the books 3rdAngel, but you tell us that you are "keeping" the Law. When you keep the law, you also keep the enforcement requirements. A sheriff who doesn't enforce the law is not keeping the law.

And yes, that holds true even if the sheriff objects, and tell everyone in the bank that he's waiting for the 2nd coming of Jesus to enforce it. We all know Jesus will keep the law when he comes, but I don't see our Sabbath keepers doing the same and they're right here.

The only difference today is that we are in the new covenant now so we no longer put people to open death because we are not in the physical nation of Israel in the flesh or under the old covenant civil laws of Israel.

Why should that matter?

You just told us that the 4th Commandment was for ALL MANKIND and not just Israel, so living physically in Israel doesn't matter a hoot. Did Israel keep the Law only in Israel? Was adultery permitted while traveling abroad?

And you're asking us who who abolished the 4th Commandment? You just abolished it!

Look, you stated that the 4th Commandment was issued to all mankind and has been in force since creation. Perhaps we can do this another way. I'm sure there are other documents, perhaps in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome or whatever, that mention how they kept their 7 day Sabbath. If you can't find scripture before Exodus, perhaps you can show us those.

 

[3rdAngel]

Thank you for asking @nPeace, but the answer is unfortunately no. I'm still trying to find out when God first instructed man to OBSERVE the 7th Day. As you reminded us, 3rdAngel's contention is that mankind was COMMANDED to observe it since the 7th creative day. He's been very good at showing us God rested and blessed the 7th Day, just not so much on when man was first COMMANDED to OBSERVE it. For that, it seems we have to go to Exodus, but @3rdAngel disagrees. But like you, @Brian2 @Windwalker and others I am really making an effort to understand the scriptural rationale our Sabbath keeping friends have yoked themselves into.

Your words have no truth in them seeking to deny what is in the scriptures. As shown in the scriptures already we know in Mark 2:27 that Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for mankind. Yes I am glad you know agree that the scriptures teach that the Sabbath is "the seventh day" of the week as shown in Exodus 20:10 and Genesis 2:1-3 and not every day of the week as you were claiming with your words that are not Gods Words in our earlier discussions. According to the scriptures bondage is to sin (John 8:31-34) not being free to obey Gods words (see Romans 6:1-23; John 8:31-34). Therefore it is sin and disobedience to Gods words that keeps us in bondage to sin (1 John 3:4-10) not having faith to believe and obey what Gods Word says. If you are still in your sins therefore you are a slave to your sins which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments and not believing and obeying what Gods Word says (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23). Your posts according to 1 John 2:3-4 only show your words have no truth in them.

You haven't quite gotten it right yet. I did not say the Lord's Day was Sunday. I stated that the Lord's Day was the 1st day of the week, which we associate with Sunday. In Europe, the 1st day of the week is associated with Monday. In China, Monday is also the first day of the week. Most of the Middle East considers SATURDAY the first day of the week. The point you miss is this: We celebrate the Resurrection rather than the "Day". With you, the DAY of celebration is important. With us, it's the fact Christ ROSE.

You still have it wrong here and no I did not miss any point you have made. You have consistently been asked to please provide a single scripture that says that Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 and you have consistently been unable to provide any scripture to support your claims here. Sunday or the first day of the week is a man-made teaching and tradition that is unsupported in the scriptures just like Gods 4th commandment being abolished and that Sunday worship is now a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. Sunday worship as a replacement for Gods 4th commandment, is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus given in Matthew 15:3-9. Jesus says here that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandment of God we are not worshiping God and our hearts are far from Him. The testing question coming to everyone of us therefore is who do we believe and follow; God or man? If we choose to follow man over the Words of God then according to Jesus we are not worshiping God.

We become a NEW CREATION in Christ, allowing us to rest in his fully completed work. We don't have to add a side of horse radish, a little mayo, nor by grabbing a goat to sacrifice at the temple. Besides, if we we could do that, and still be square with God, then Christ need not have come. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor 5:17)

To become a new creation in Christ means that Jesus sets us from from our sins by grace through faith in His Words by paying the price for our sins with His own life. This is a gift of God that God gives to all those who through faith believe and obey His Words (Ephesians 2:8-9). No one therefore is "In Christ" if they are not believing and obeying what Gods Word says. Not believing and obeying what Gods Word says is the very definition of what sin is according to the scriptures in 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23 and only shows us that we are not "In Christ" and that according to the scriptures we do not "know God" according to John in 1 John 2:3-4. The old things that have past away therefore in 2 Corinthians 5:17 is a life that does not believe and does not obey what Gods Word says. The new creation is a life that now believes and obeys Gods Word from the heart in all those who have been made free from their sins to walk in Gods Spirit *Galatians 5:16. So lets drive it home. Sin according to the scriptures is the transgression of Gods law (1 John 3:4) and not believing and obeying Gods Word (Romans 14:23). According to scripture, those who do not believe and obey what Gods Word says do not know God 1 John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." and in 1 John 3:6-10, John goes on to show that sin (breaking Gods law) is the fruit of the children of the devil. James agrees in James 2:13-26 where he says the devils believe but do not obey Gods Word. So if we claims to believe Gods Word but do not obey Gods Word according to James all we have is the dead faith of devils. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 when he says "Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity (sin). Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath?

So Resurrection Day is the "8th" creative day, a brand new day, a gift from our Creator, where sinners, all those who now believe in Christ, are "reborn" as new creations in Christ. Do you understand the difference here? Rather than focus on the Day we rather focus on Christ. We are more giddy about his resurrection than we are about Sundays and Mondays. But don't get me wrong. If you want to celebrate Saturdays, go ahead. As a believer in Christ, you have a perfect right to do so. Just remember... There is no command TO do so; There is no command NOT to do so There is no punishment either way. The freedom to do as you choose, yet still remain close to God, is a reward for recognizing and believing in Christ. It's the same reward Adam had at the beginning, yet he stopped believing in God. Christ's resurrection proved his words as true, and it was such a relief to those who had been bound and enslaved to sin and the law that many began to celebrate daily. Now we can give ANY day to the Lord, just as Adam, before sin, gave his. There is no need to wait for a 7th or special holiday. God completed His work on the 7th Day, so that man could rest, and when man fell out of rest, Christ completed his work so that we could once again do the same.

Well your good at promoting theories but there is nothing you have posted here that is supported in the scriptures as being truthful. How many days in a week? Are there seven days or eight? You say eight while scripture says there are seven days in the week in Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 2:1-3. Where does it say in the scriptures that the resurrection is the eighth day? You say that the resurrection is the eighth day of the week in honor of the resurrection of Jesus and that we are to honor Sunday over Gods 4th commandment to keep the seventh day as a holy day of rest as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as our creation that Jesus says in Mark 2:27 was made for all mankind (see Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Yet for your teaching you have no scripture to support your view and your teaching is in direct opposition to scripture. Lets dig a little deeper into your claims here. You say that you do not focus on the day you focus on Christ? How can you focus on Christ when it is God that says in His commandment to Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy and that the "seventh day" is the Sabbath of the Lord your God and in it you shall do not work because God rested the "seventh day" from all His work and we are to do the same because God blessed the seventh day and made it a holy day of rest for mankind? If you are focusing on Christ then you will believe and obey what Gods Word says not disobey what Gods Word says and not believe what Gods Word says. As pointed out earlier not believing and obeying what Gods Word says is the very definition of what sin is according to the scriptures (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11). Lets continue. You say there is no command to keep the seventh day Sabbath? Have you heard of Gods 10 commandments? Go read Gods 4th commandment found in Exodus 20:8-11 and also Hebrews 4:1-11 not to mention all the scriptures in the new testament about Jesus teaching us how to keep the Sabbath in Matthew 12:1-12 (if you would like more scripture please feel free to ask). You then say there is no punishment to break Gods Sabbath? Then there is Gods Word that tells us that sin is the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4 and Gods 4th commandment is one of Gods 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11 and that if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will be in danger of being lost and the wages of sin is death in Romans 6:23 and Hebrews 10:26-31. Jesus also is disagreeing with you in Matthew 5:17 and Matthew 7:13-23 and Matthew 15:3-9 where he says that those who continue practicing sin will not enter into Gods kingdom, he did not come to change the law and that those who follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God are not worshiping God. This is also what John is saying in 1 John 2:3-4. Read the scriptures @Oeste. They are Gods Words not mine and they are in direct disagreement with everything you have said here.

That's it in a nutshell. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Enjoy your rest in Christ, trust in his completed work, and rejoice in the freedom he offers.

As posted earlier no one rests in Christ if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says. This is the warning given in Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. According to the scriptures those who rest in Christ are all those who believe and obey what Gods Word says. Those who do not believe and obey what Gods Word says are called the wicked in the scriptures and are like the troubled sea that have no rest (see Isaiah 57:20).

Take Care.

 

[Oeste]

I take a different view of the rationale for the fixation upon that one commandment as of such grave importance to some people. I look at it from a 30,000 foot perspective of motivations, rather than getting ensnared in endless quibblings over scriptural texts, which is the favorite playground for those with legalistic bents to escape into like B'ar Rabbit trying to be let loose into the briar patch.

I enjoy wading in the weeds, and I'm not amiss to taking a tumble in the briar patch sometimes, but it can take quite a bit of time. I try to avoid useless arguments. If I believe a thread has run its course and that I have made my point, then I see no need to continue.

This thread interested me because I don't recall having a discussion where the OP expressed a need to keep a modern day Sabbath. From my perspective, we were at rest in the garden with God, I don't understand the need for God commanding rest when we were already at rest with Him.

However, this thread has given me some insight into Adventist beliefs. I have some Adventist friends, and I actually studied with some a little over 30 years ago, as my wife was becoming ill. I decided to sit in because I was concerned about their soul sleep beliefs. I disagreed with the Adventists on that, but I found them to be very nice, friendly and hospitable. Our disagreement was respectful and not at all argumentative. We simply exchanged views, followed up with scriptures, and answered each others questions back and forth. I think my wife enjoyed the exchange and that it brough her some comfort. We were all there for her, and that's what we considered the most important.

That is the core issue of legalism. It looks to make clean the outside of the cup, because that is far easier to lie to ourselves we have cleaned house, while never once deep cleaning in those hidden closets within and facing ourselves

Preach brother Windwalker!

Christ covers a multitude of sins. We could not wear white robes without him.

Jesus quite clearly taught in Mark, in exactly that interaction with the legalists of his day about the sabbath and the true value of it. It was not for God. It was not because it mattered to God. He explicitly says this. And yet, here we are 37 pages of discussion later, still not understanding his words with those not understanding what Jesus meant and insisting against what Jesus said, that the sabbath is of paramount importance to God. If it were, then the Pharisees were right, and Jesus was wrong! Just read the story and see: Mark 2:23-27.

It's our nature. We think we need to add a little something extra to the works of Christ, but Paul dismisses this:

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2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.​

If I am bound to the whole law by receiving circumcision, then I am bound to the whole law by keeping the Sabbath.

Acts 15:1-29 makes the whole issue very clear. We are cleansed by faith (not by going to church on Sundays or Saturdays) and we do well to keep ourselves spiritually clean:

a24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.​

He is saying that the 7th day was to give man a day of rest. Not because God considered it sacred to himself. Man was not made for the Sabbath. If the legalists are right, then man was made for the Sabbath, and to not keep it to a T, would be a sin against God. Yet, here was Jesus and his disciples, violating the Sabbath, according the legalists, and he attempts to show them how these commandments are not to be used as bludgeons against others. Yet, that is exactly what is being done in this thread.

Yes, the Pharisees overloaded the Sabbath with needless rules and regulations.

Today, we have modern day Pharisees attempting to overload God's grace with the same.

He is saying that the 7th day was to give man a day of rest. Not because God considered it sacred to himself.

Agreed.

I have been called a mocker of God. I have been called lawless. A teacher of lawlessness. A denier of God. A sinner. Judged by God. And so forth. I am in good company then,

Then we are all in good company by being with you my friend.

All of it boils down to this: Grace vs. the Law. Legalists only understand the latter, and as such everything they read in scripture has to fit what they understand, because that is all they know, and all they can see at this point. That's the 30,000 foot perspective, or the "God's eye view" of the matter

I have something more to say about this, but it's very early and I am already up waaaayyy to late. If I get a chance, I'll post more tomorrow.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: Trouble is I did not misunderstand you. I quoted you, claiming that Exodus 20:8-11 does not point back to Genesis 2:1-3 while proving from the scriptures that Exodus 20:8-11 is indeed pointing back to Genesis 2:1-3.

Your response here..

No, you did no such. You CLAIM it points back to Genesis 2:1-3, and that's about it.

Well that is not true dear friend. I did not misunderstand you. I understood what you said perfectly and addressed what you said we a detailed scripture response proving what you said earlier was not true. You made the claim that Gods 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 does not point back to Genesis 2:1-3 and all you are doing here is what your friends are doing which is micro-quoting me and leaving out and not addressing any of the supporting scripture content that proves what your saying is not true here. So all you are doing here is repeating yourself without addressing anything I have shared with you in the post you are quoting from. Again, I quoted you, claiming that Exodus 20:8-11 does not point back to Genesis 2:1-3 while proving from the scriptures that Exodus 20:8-11 is indeed pointing back to Genesis 2:1-3. So lets be honest here. If you make a mistake just own it as your posts here only proves it is you that does not understand scripture and that Exodus 20:11 is a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3 that is in disagreement with you. Exodus 20:8 is God telling is to "Remember" that means it is pointing backwards not forwards to things to come. Remember is a memorial to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy with the reason given in Exodus 20:11 that says, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and made it holy." The only place in scripture that tells us that God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a holy day of rest is found in Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. So as proven here Gods words disagrees with you dear friend. Receive Gods correction and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear.

God tell the Israelites to REMEMBER the 7 day Sabbath he gave them just a few weeks prior. All you have to do is read Exodus 16!!! That was the FIRST 7-day Sabbath that MAN celebrated. There was no 7 day Sabbath man was required to observe before then. You find this in Exodus 16, and NOT in Genesis! We will demonstrate this in a moment.

The post and scripture you are quoting from and not addressing shows that it is God who rested from all His work of creation that He had made in Genesis 2:1-3 and that God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day as a holy day of rest for all mankind as a memorial of creation (Mark 2:27; Exodus 20:8-11). Your claims here has no basis in fact or truth as it is written in the scriptures before Exodus that Gods people knew what sin was and that the only definition of sin in the bible is not believing Gods Word and breaking Gods law *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Romans 14:23. Then we have what God says of Abraham in
Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Therefore lets not make excuses for sin. Even if you do not believe that Gods people obeyed Gods law before Exodus what excuse do you have now that Gods law was written with Gods own finger now on two tables of stone and is given to Gods people to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *Romans 3:20; Roams 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments including Gods 4th commandment we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking all of Gods law in James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to the scriptures (Matthew 7:21-23) and according to John need to be born again because they do not know God (see 1 John 3:4-10 compare 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures the Sabbath points back to creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and God commands us to remember it as a holy day of rest. Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath? Sorry dear friend but your theories do not agree with scripture.

That's right 3rdAngel! But I want you to note the word you have capitalized. It's the "LORD". The LORD did the work the first 6 days, NOT MAN. So man could not possibly have "remembered" working 6 days because man was not around for the first 5. Man was created on the 6th Day. God rested on the 7th. Man simply rested with Him, because mankind was in God's rest. There is no need for MAN to take a rest in the Garden when GOD has done all the work. We simply rest with Him. Now if Man had been around for the first 5 days them yeah, you might have a valid point. Dragging the 4th commandment and bolting it to creation would make a bit more sense then So WE WERE AT REST IN THE GARDEN and did not come into a state of UNREST until we sinned. Read it again my friend. God does the first 6 days of work in Genesis, and God rests (ceases His creative work) on the 7th. In Exodus, it is MAN who must work 6 days, and it is MAN who takes the 7th. This is not the same at all. We cannot compare the works of man with the work of God. As stated, it was God who labored during the 6 day creation period. As for who rested, it was God....... (snipped)

What are you even talking about here? Where did I ever once in this thread ever state anywhere that man worked in the creation week? If I never made these claims that you are making here why pretend that I am saying things I have never once said and then seeking to argue against something I have never said? (strawman). As posted to you more than once now, according to the scriptures already shared with you; it is God who rested from all His work of creation that He had made in Genesis 2:1-3 and that God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day as a holy day of rest for all mankind as a memorial of creation (Mark 2:27; Exodus 20:8-11). AS posted earlier the scriptures teach us that no one rests in Christ if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says. This is the warning given in Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. According to the scriptures those who rest in Christ are all those who believe and obey what Gods Word says. Those who do not believe and obey what Gods Word says are called the wicked in the scriptures and are like the troubled sea that have no rest (see Isaiah 57:20). Receive Gods Word and be blessed dear friend, ignoring them does not make them disappear. They become our judge come judgement day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48.

Take Care.

 

[Oeste]

In my ministry, if an Adventist cannot use the Bible, to answer my questions, it's a que to not go any further.
I have helped a Adventist simply by using questions. They thought about the answers, that stared them in the face.
It's easy to overlook something you don't want to face.

I have to agree with you on this @nPeace.

I enjoy discussion, explanations, and debates, and I think we've pretty much done that. I do not believe we are required to convince.

The strange thing here is that we've told them that if they want want to worship on Saturdays they are free to do so. Nobody here forbids it. Yet, we are chastised for having worship on Sundays, as if that's a dirty thing, worthy of death.

The whole thing is bizarre, but I guess some need it, and Christ told us we would suffer many insults just as he has.

Anyways, it been great talking with you.

Take care, and I'll log back in as soon as I can.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: According to the scriptures it is written that through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and that sin is the breaking or transgression of Gods law in 1 John 3:4. So in order for Gods people to know what sin is they must have known what Gods law was before Mt Sinai in order to practice the laws of sin atonement through animal sacrifices and sin offerings (see Genesis 22:2-13; Genesis 31:54). In Genesis 26:5 (before Mt Sinai) we also read that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Your response here...

That's correct, but it says nothing about the 4th commandment. There is no time paradox here. Abraham could not keep a 7th day Sabbath given to Moses hundreds of years later. God did bless the 7th creative day. We really have no idea how long those days were. It could have been 24 hours or thousands of years.

Think your argument through first dear friend before responding. Is Gods 4th commandment one of Gods laws? Look up the Hebrew words used for my laws and tell me what it says. You were the one making a claim earlier that God people did not know Gods laws and sin before Exodus yet the scriptures in Genesis 26:5 here are in direct disagreement with you. We can show other scriptures if you like. Showing that Gods people knew about Gods laws before the Exodus (see Exodus 39:9). Think your argument through dear friend it is not supported in the scriptures. If Gods people did not know Gods laws they would have had no knowledge of what sin was (Romans 3:20) yet we read all through the Genesis that Gods people know Gods law and they also knew Gods laws for sin atonement through burnt offerings to seek Gods forgiveness of sin (see Genesis 22:2-13). So your claims here are unsupported in the scriptures dear friend. Read the scriptures shared with you.

3rdAngel said: No. Jesus says that God made the Sabbath for mankind in Mark 2:27 and the making of the Sabbath for mankind where God blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day of the week a holy day for all mankind is found in Genesis 2:1-3.

Your response here...

You claim mankind was COMMANDED to observe the 4th commandment at Genesis 2:1-3. That's the part you're not posting. We need to see the COMMAND, just like we do in Exodus, without the need to squint our eyes and look at a verse sideways.

Please be honest dear friend. Where in the post you are quoting from or anywhere in this thread have I ever said that God commanded man to keep the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 and if I have never said these thing why pretend that I have and then build your arguments around things I have never said or believe (strawman)? I said to you that according to the scriptures, Jesus says that God made the Sabbath for mankind in Mark 2:27 and the making of the Sabbath for mankind was where God blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day of the week a holy day for all mankind is found in Genesis 2:1-3.

3rdAngel said: According to the scriptures it is written that through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and that sin is the breaking or transgression of Gods law in 1 John 3:4. So in order for Gods people to know what sin is they must have known what Gods law was before Mt Sinai in order to practice the laws of sin atonement through animal sacrifices and sin offerings (see Genesis 22:2-13; Genesis 31:54). In Genesis 26:5 (before Mt Sinai) we also read that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Your response here

Yes he did. But you are reading into the book of Genesis a 4th Commandment that is not there. Look, in the U.S. we have President's Day as a legal holiday but that does not mean you can trace President's Day back to George Washington. We also have Veteran's day, but that doesn't mean business have been honoring the day off since the Revolutionary War.

No I have not read anything into the scriptures at all. I have only provided scripture for your claims that Gods people did not know Gods laws before Exodus 16 and provided scripture that says shows that it is only through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is when we break the law and that Gods 4th commandment is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. So in order for Gods people to know what sin is they must have known what Gods law was before Mt Sinai in order to practice the laws of sin atonement through animal sacrifices and sin offerings (see Genesis 22:2-13; Genesis 31:54). In Genesis 26:5 (before Mt Sinai) we also read that "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." What I have shared with you is what Gods Word says.

3rdAngel said: You do err not knowing the scriptures. According to the scriptures, in the old covenant in the book of the law of Moses the death penalty was given to anyone who was caught openly breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments. This was to teach Gods people that the wages of sin is death just like it does in the new covenant scriptures (see Romans 6:23). The same death penalty was given to anyone who was caught breaking 1st Commandment (Exodus 20:3), Thou shalt have no other gods before me (Deuteronomy 17:1-5; 14:6-10; Exodus 22:20); 2nd Commandment, (Exodus 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any idols (Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 27: 15); 3rd Commandment (Exodus 20:7), Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain (Leviticus 24:16); 4th Commandment Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11) see Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2; 5th commandment (Exodus 20:12) honor your father and mother see Exodus 21:15-17; 6th commandment thou shalt not kill (Exodus 20:13) see Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:31-33; 7th commandment thou shalt not commit Adultery (Exodus 20:14) see Leviticus 20:10; John 8:3-5; 8th Commandment thou shall not steal (Exodus 20:15) but only applied to man stealing or kidnapping (Exodus 21:16); 9th commandment (Exodus 20:16) thou shall not bear false witness see Deuteronomy 19:15-21 and the 10th commandments thou shall not covet (Exodus 20:17) see Joshua 7:21-25.

Your response here...

Did I say something different? The 4th Commandment was part of the law. The penalty was death for anyone who repeatedly broke it. That how the nation of Israel kept its Law. Not according to you. You state the 4th Commandment is still in effect. You also state you are keeping the 4th Commandment. You did not mention you kept it only when it was convenient. If the Law is still in effect, then the punishment for breaking it is still in effect otherwise you are lawless. There is no law without punishment. If you want to keep the Law then you have to keep all of that Law, You can't pick and choose the parts you don't like.

Yes you were trying to argue that the death penalty only applied to Gods 4th commandment and that to keep Gods 4th commandment we need to carry out the death penalty. I continued in the post you are quoting from that under the Nation of Israel showing from the scriptures ever one of Gods 10 commandments were punishable by death for anyone openly caught breaking them under the old covenant. I also provided further scriptures from the new covenant that you did not post showing that the wages of sin in the new covenant is still death but that this penalty is carried out at the second coming to all those who do not believe and obey Gods Word.

The death penalty is still in force today because it is written that the wages of sin is death for those that do not repent before the time of judgement is finished (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12) but enforcement of the death penalty does not take place until the second coming (see Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8 etc etc)

Your response here...

I'm not understanding your point here since the penalty was also in effect at the time of Moses and has been since Adam sinned. As to the enforcement of the death penalty, God did not tell Israel to wait until His second coming. Everyone will stand before Jesus 3rdAngel. If you are not enforcing God's laws, you are not keeping them. Look, if I work as a guard at a bank, and each day a few employees dip their hands into the till, running out just before closing with a bag full of money, am I keeping the law against theft? For that matter, am I keeping my job? Anyone can say there is a law on the books 3rdAngel, but you tell us that you are "keeping" the Law. When you keep the law, you also keep the enforcement requirements. A sheriff who doesn't enforce the law is not keeping the law. And yes, that holds true even if the sheriff objects, and tell everyone in the bank that he's waiting for the 2nd coming of Jesus to enforce it. We all know Jesus will keep the law when he comes, but I don't see our Sabbath keepers doing the same and they're right here. Why should that matter? You just told us that the 4th Commandment was for ALL MANKIND and not just Israel, so living physically in Israel doesn't matter a hoot. Did Israel keep the Law only in Israel? Was adultery permitted while traveling abroad? And you're asking us who who abolished the 4th Commandment? You just abolished it! Look, you stated that the 4th Commandment was issued to all mankind and has been in force since creation. Perhaps we can do this another way. I'm sure there are other documents, perhaps in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome or whatever, that mention how they kept their 7 day Sabbath. If you can't find scripture before Exodus, perhaps you can show us those.

Take some time and re-read what was shared with you from the scriptures. We are not of the nation of Israel when the penalty for breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments was death by capital punishment under civil law so your argument does not apply. Also, according to the scriptures we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant so once again your argument does not apply. In the new covenant, the wages of sin is still death for those who continue in known unrepentant sin (see Romans 6:23 and Hebrews 10:26-31) but the penalty for sin (death) to those who choose not to believe and obey Gods Word is carried out at the second coming by Jesus and not Gods people. Therefore as posted to you earlier and shown from the scriptures already, the death penalty is still in force today and the wages of sin is still death for those who reject the gift of Gods dear son and do not repent of their sins, before the time of judgement is finished (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12). However, enforcement of the death penalty does not take place until the second coming (see Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8 etc etc). The scriptures have already been provided to you go read them.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

That is the core issue of legalism. It looks to make clean the outside of the cup, because that is far easier to lie to ourselves we have cleaned house, while never once deep cleaning in those hidden closets within and facing ourselves. That is what I see such a large focus of Jesus' teachings were about, especially portrayed in his interactions with the Pharisees, who represented the legalists, who strained and gnats, while swallowing camels. Jesus quite clearly taught in Mark, in exactly that interaction with the legalists of his day about the sabbath and the true value of it. It was not for God. It was not because it mattered to God. He explicitly says this. And yet, here we are 37 pages of discussion later, still not understanding his words with those not understanding what Jesus meant and insisting against what Jesus said, that the sabbath is of paramount importance to God. If it were, then the Pharisees were right, and Jesus was wrong! Just read the story and see: Mark 2:23-27.

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”​

​

He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”​

​

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.​

He is saying that the 7th day was to give man a day of rest. Not because God considered it sacred to himself. Man was not made for the Sabbath. If the legalists are right, then man was made for the Sabbath, and to not keep it to a T, would be a sin against God. Yet, here was Jesus and his disciples, violating the Sabbath, according the legalists, and he attempts to show them how these commandments are not to be used as bludgeons against others. Yet, that is exactly what is being done in this thread.

I have been called a mocker of God. I have been called lawless. A teacher of lawlessness. A denier of God. A sinner. Judged by God. And so forth. I am in good company then, since in the stories in the gospels, these were what the legalists were attacking Jesus with for not making the letter of the law of paramount importance either, letting his disciples pick grain on the Sabbath. He was called lawless as well. A friend of sinners. Casting out devils by the power of the devil, and the like.

According to the scriptures "We are all saved by Gods grace through faith. It is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is because all of us have sinned and have fallen short of Gods glory and the wages of sin is death (Romans 3:8-23; Romans 6:23). According to the scriptures we receive Gods grace of salvation and forgiveness of sins through faith in Gods Word (Romans 10:17) and the death and resurrection of Jesus who paid the price for out sins so that we can be made free to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-23) through being born again of His Spirit (Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:4-9) into Gods new covenant promise (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Hebrews 8:10-12). Therefore to walk "In Christ" in newness of life means to walk by faith by believing and obeying what Gods Word says.

It is not legalism to believe and obey what Gods Word says. Not believing and obeying what Gods Word says is the very definition of what sin is according to the scriptures in 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23. According to scripture, those who do not believe and obey what Gods Word says do not know God 1 John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." and in 1 John 3:6-10, John goes on to show that sin (breaking Gods law) is the fruit of the children of the devil. James agrees in James 2:13-26 where he says the devils believe but do not obey Gods Word.

So if we claims to believe Gods Word but do not obey Gods Word according to James all we have is the dead faith of devils. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 when he says "Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity (sin)." According to the scriptures we are saved by Gods grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). Genuine faith therefore according to Jesus, James and Paul are all in agreement that genuine saving faith believes and obeys what Gods Word says (see Romans 3:31). What you are promoting here is a teaching of lawlessness and the dead faith of devils that Jesus, James and Paul all warn us against in the scriptures. We should therefore choose to believe and follow what Gods Word says over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus given in Matthew 15:3-9 and Matthew 7:13-23.

Take care.

 

[Windwalker]

No it was not as I planned at all. I knew you would not respond to all the scriptures shared with you that are in direct disagreement with you because this is what you have been doing with all my posts so far. There is a lot of scripture and it is directly in disagreement with you. It was only provided as a help to you so show you why your teachings and claims are not biblical or supported in the scriptures but you still continue to choose not to believe them when they are Gods Words only sent in love and as a help to you. There is not a single scripture that I have posted to you that supports anything that you are saying here. That should be a red flag to you that perhaps what you believe is not true.

Not really sharing scripture is the only biblical standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and not believing them or obeying them according to the scriptures is sin (see Romans 14:23; James 4:17; 1 John 3:4). According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin after God gives them a knowledge of the truth of His Words are in danger of the judgement to come unless they repent of their sins and confess them to God and return to Him with all their heart (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Your not being truthful or honest here dear friend. Sadly you are trying to put a spin on my words as a response to your question that I was never saying. As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here. So please do not pretend to say things I have never said or claimed. That would be bearing false witness and sin. If you do not understand what I have shared with you from the scriptures you are welcome to ask questions for clarity.

Your not being truthful or honest here as well dear friend. Sadly once again, you are trying to put a spin on my words as a response to your question that I was never saying.As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here. So please do not pretend to say things I have never said or claimed. That would be bearing false witness and sin. If you do not understand what I have shared with you from the scriptures you are welcome to ask questions for clarity. Again, I do not judge you or anyone here according to Jesus it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day *John 12:47-48. So once again it is the scriptures that are the standard of what is true and what is not true and it is only the scriptures that have been shared with you here which is Gods Words not mine that you are in disagreement with and do not want to discuss. So lets be honest in our discussions please.

Again, your not being truthful or honest here as well dear friend. As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here. So please do not pretend to say things I have never said or claimed. That would be bearing false witness and sin. If you do not understand what I have shared with you from the scriptures you are welcome to ask questions for clarity. Again, I do not judge you or anyone here according to Jesus it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day *John 12:47-48. So once again it is the scriptures that are the standard of what is true and what is not true and it is only the scriptures that have been shared with you here which is Gods Words not mine that you are in disagreement with and do not want to discuss. So lets be honest in our discussions please.

Again, your not being truthful or honest here as well dear friend. As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here not my words that you do not believe and deny with your words that are not Gods Word. So please do not pretend to say things I have never said or claimed. That would be bearing false witness and sin. If you do not understand what I have shared with you from the scriptures you are welcome to ask questions for clarity. Again, I do not judge you or anyone here according to Jesus it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day *John 12:47-48. So once again it is the scriptures that are the standard of what is true and what is not true and it is only the scriptures that have been shared with you here which is Gods Words not mine that you are in disagreement with and do not want to discuss. So lets be honest in our discussions please. Do not feel sorry for me dear friend, as I believe and follow what Gods Word says. Feel sorry for all those who choose to harden their hearts and close their eyes and ears to hearing and seeing Gods Words so as they will be lost if they do not repent from their sins and return to believing and obeying what Gods Word says.

Again, your not being truthful or honest here as well dear friend. As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here not my words that you do not believe and deny with your words that are not Gods Word. So please do not pretend to say things I have never said or claimed. That would be bearing false witness and sin according to the scriptures. I agree with you on the point that there is no use in us continuing our discussion if you choose to close your eyes and ears to seeing and hearing and believing and following what Gods Word says. I will leave it between you and God to work through and hope only the best for you.

Take Care.

You have not been truthful or honest in your responses to me. I asked for a clear yes or no responses, and you refused to give one, therefore your answer is "Yes, I believe my interpretations are infallible," but you don't really want to come out and say that because you know that collapses your entire claim that, "these are God's words not mine.".

If you did not believe your interpretations were infallible, you would have said, "Of course not. I'm not beyond my biases affecting how I read scripture any more than anyone else is." That would show some humility on your part, and that would of course moved us forward in discussion.

You have the opportunity at anytime to answer my questions directly, rather than obfuscating your answers with a deluge of scripture references, rather than you just being honest. But since you are not being honest, there is no honest discussion we can have.

The invitation is open to you. Come to the table being honest with yourself and me in this discussion, and begin showing me respect by not calling me a sinner and a teacher of lawness who mocks God, because you think that means you can just dismiss anything I say, and then we I'll be happy to talk with you. But not until then.

 

[3rdAngel]

You have not been truthful or honest in your responses to me. I asked for a clear yes or no responses, and you refused to give one, therefore your answer is "Yes, I believe my interpretations are infallible," but you don't really want to come out and say that because you know that collapses your entire claim that, "these are God's words not mine.".

If you did not believe your interpretations were infallible, you would have said, "Of course not. I'm not beyond my biases affecting how I read scripture any more than anyone else is." That would show some humility on your part, and that would of course moved us forward in discussion.

You have the opportunity at anytime to answer my questions directly, rather than obfuscating your answers with a deluge of scripture references, rather than you just being honest. But since you are not being honest, there is no honest discussion we can have.

The invitation is open to you. Come to the table being honest with yourself and me in this discussion, and begin showing me respect by not calling me a sinner and a teacher of lawness who mocks God, because you think that means you can just dismiss anything I say, and then we I'll be happy to talk with you. But not until then.

Please stop with the false accusation. You are deflecting what I have already said to you. It is you who is not being truthful or honest here dear friend. I do not have to conform to a yes or no answer if a yes or no answer can lead to a misunderstanding of the truth. You were provided scripture as a direct response to all of your questions because it is scripture that I believed answered your questions and all through this thread I have only addressed each persons post with what Gods Word says. As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here. Again, I do not judge you or anyone here according to Jesus it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day *John 12:47-48. So once again it is the scriptures that are the standard of what is true and what is not true and it is only the scriptures that have been shared with you here which is Gods Words not mine that you are in disagreement with and do not want to discuss. So lets be honest in our discussions please.

 

[Windwalker]

This thread interested me because I don't recall having a discussion where the OP expressed a need to keep a modern day Sabbath. From my perspective, we were at rest in the garden with God, I don't understand the need for God commanding rest when we were already at rest with Him.

I like this. For some reason I had not thought about that before that if the Sabbath was about God, then you'd think the Genesis author would have made a point to mention them observing it in the Garden of Eden story.

Of course there would be no need for it, because there was no toil of labors on the other days of the week they would need rest from. And truthfully, they were in the "rest" perpetually, because they were not cast out of the Garden. So when those who embrace that Peace of God, when they are 'reconciled with God", they too re-enter that Garden, and likewise have that perpetual rest. That's what Hebrews 4 is pretty clearly saying. It's hard to miss that.

There is a quote I am fond of that out of Buddhism which directly applies here. "To insist upon a spiritual practice that has served you in the past, is to carry the raft upon your back after you have already crossed the river." That the whole problem with legalism. It's dragging the raft of the old covenant law on your back after you have crossed over into the new covenant of rest. It's not throwing out the day of rest practice, it is embodying it as an integrated reality.

The lesson has been learned, not thrown away. It has been integrated. It is "written on the tablets of the heart", as opposed to chiseled in stone, or printed pages of a book or a Bible, outside of yourself. This is something that those still learning it cannot comprehend about those who have already learned it.

Christ covers a multitude of sins. We could not wear white robes without him.

One passage of scripture I have really come to appreciate and relate to is Paul's internal conflict dialog:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

​

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

To condense this down and update it to some more modern terms, the higher spiritual truths are something deep within us that we desire to be more predominate in our lives, but our egos, or our human self-serving desires and clingings which are part of our natural instincts, our "egoic will", or "fleshly will", works at cross purposes with our spiritual will, or our pull to be united with God, or the Divine.

Our spiritual natures want to connect with God, but the egoic nature wants it on the ego's terms, in order to preserve itself as opposed to surrendering itself to the Divine Will. The ego is what thinks that if it follows all the rules, it will achieve unity with God, without needing to die to itself and let go. It tries everything, but surrender, which relies upon Grace and mercy. The ego says, "if I do this, then I will be good, and God will accept me". That is the core of legalism. The human ego seeking to climb in another way. That other ways is anything but dying to itself.

So Paul's dilemma of the inner man struggling to achieve God and failing, is just that. The ego trying everything but a complete surrender of itself to the Divine. It never truthfully says or means "Thy will, not mine be done". The only time that means anything is when it is the spiritual will saying it, as an act of surrender of the egoic efforts to achieve God.

That is why Paul ends it by saying "Who shall save me from body of death [or the egoic trap]? I thank God who delivers me through Christ." Or it is by God's Spirit alone we are raised up, not by our efforts. The only thing required is "letting go of egoic effort", and that is done by a choice of the spiritual will to surrender effort.

This is something legalism cannot grasp. The concept of surrender, and spiritual empowerment through the death of egoic efforts. If we want to be liberated, we must die to the egoic self. Legalism preserves the ego, as it is the ego seeking for the condition of the Divine Spirit, or its way back into the Garden of Eden. It cannot ever succeed, as the way is barred to the ego.

It's our nature. We think we need to add a little something extra to the works of Christ, but Paul dismisses this:

​

2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.​

And that is exactly the case. You can't surrender egoic efforts, and then start using egoic efforts again. In other words, if you found spiritual liberation by letting go and surrendering, not looking to doing things to make that happen, then you start doing things to make it happen, then surrender availed you nothing. You're not using that way anymore. You're going back to trying to control everything through efforts.

Then we are all in good company by being with you my friend.

And the funny, or ironic thing about this is, that all the while those baseless accusations are cast at us, in the biblical narratives about Jesus and his encounters with the Pharisees, the religious legalists accused Jesus of those exact same things, using those exact same words.

And yet despite that, they cannot see the parallels of themselves in the same role as the Pharisees, saying the exact same things to us for speaking of love, forgiveness, grace, compassion, and so forth.

I have something more to say about this, but it's very early and I am already up waaaayyy to late. If I get a chance, I'll post more tomorrow.

Sounds good. I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[Windwalker]

Please stop with the false accusation. You are deflecting what I have already said to you. It is you who is not being truthful or honest here dear friend. I do not have to conform to a yes or no answer if a yes or no answer can lead to a misunderstanding of the truth. You were provided scripture as a direct response to all of your questions because it is scripture that I believed answered your questions and all through this thread I have only addressed each persons post with what Gods Word says. As posted already, God's Word is the only standard of what is true and what is not true (Romans 3:4) and it is the Words of God that are the only standard of what truth is (John 17:17) and it is the Words of God (not my words) that I share with you here. Again, I do not judge you or anyone here according to Jesus it is the words of God we accept or reject that will become our judge come judgement day *John 12:47-48. So once again it is the scriptures that are the standard of what is true and what is not true and it is only the scriptures that have been shared with you here which is Gods Words not mine that you are in disagreement with and do not want to discuss. So lets be honest in our discussions please.

Do you believe your interpretations of scripture are infallible? Tell me about how you see yourself, speaking in 1st person responses, such as "No, of course I don't believe that," or "Yes, if I believe it to be true, than I am right" This seriously isn't hard for you do manage a simple answer like this, is it?

If it helps, I'll state my answer to that question to myself first. I'll say, no, I don't believe that my ideas about scripture or the ways I interpret them are infallible. Or course not. That would be ridiculous to think that.

So then how about you? Do you feel the same way about yourself? Or is this different for you? Let's discuss this together.

 

[3rdAngel]

Do you believe your interpretations of scripture are infallible? Tell me about how you see yourself, speaking in 1st person responses, such as "No, of course I don't believe that," or "Yes, if I believe it to be true, than I am right" This seriously isn't hard for you do manage a simple answer like this, is it?

If it helps, I'll state my answer to that question to myself first. I'll say, no, I don't believe that my ideas about scripture or the ways I interpret them are infallible. Or course not. That would be ridiculous to think that.

So then how about you? Do you feel the same way about yourself? Or is this different for you? Let's discuss this together.

I already told you, I believe Gods Word is infallible and the only standard of what is true and what is not true. I have only been sharing Gods Word with you but you do not believe them and do not want to discuss them because they show why your teachings of lawlessness are not biblical.

 

[Windwalker]

I already told you, I believe Gods Word is infallible and the only standard of what is true and what is not true.

But then how do you understand it when someone else who also believes that like you do, tells you a different understanding of the exact same verses you are quoting in support of your views? Are you claiming they are reading it wrong, but you are not?

Do you believe sometimes when you read something in the Bible, that your ideas about it could be wrong? If you believe they could be wrong about those same verses you read another way than they do, do you believe you could be wrong too? I would truly like to understand your thinking about this.

I have only been sharing Gods Word with you but you do not believe them

I believe them plenty well. I just don't read from it what you're reading from it. How do you explain that? How is it you understand it differently than me, and everyone else in this thread?

and do not want to discuss them because they show why your teachings of lawlessness are not biblical.

I teach that "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." That's not teaching lawlessness. Do you believe Paul was teaching lawlessness? Those are his words from Romans 13:10.

If you do not believe Paul's words, that you believe he was wrong and he was teaching lawlessness, then that would explain why you think I am teaching lawlessness too. But if you don't, then why are you accusing me of it when I am simply quoting him? How do you explain this inconsistency?

At least with 2nd Pillar, he says Paul is a false prophet, so anything I'd quote from him would be rejected. But do you reject Paul like he does, or do you accept Paul's teachings as "God's word"?

Explain why you reject me, when I'm quoting God's word to you? Are you rejecting my interpretation of it, and not rejecting God's word itself? I'd love an explanation of this, if you would please.

 

[3rdAngel]

But then how do you understand it when someone else who also believes that like you do, tells you a different understanding of the exact same verses you are quoting in support of your views? Are you claiming they are reading it wrong, but you are not?

Do you believe sometimes when you read something in the Bible, that your ideas about it could be wrong? If you believe they could be wrong about those same verses you read another way than they do, do you believe you could be wrong too? I would truly like to understand your thinking about this.

I believe them plenty well. I just don't read from it what you're reading from it. How do you explain that? How is it you understand it differently than me, and everyone else in this thread?

I teach that "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." That's not teaching lawlessness. Do you believe Paul was teaching lawlessness? Those are his words from Romans 13:10.

If you do not believe Paul's words, that you believe he was wrong and he was teaching lawlessness, then that would explain why you think I am teaching lawlessness too. But if you don't, then why are you accusing me of it when I am simply quoting him? How do you explain this inconsistency?

At least with 2nd Pillar, he says Paul is a false prophet, so anything I'd quote from him would be rejected. But do you reject Paul like he does, or do you accept Paul's teachings as "God's word"?

Explain why you reject me, when I'm quoting God's word to you? Are you rejecting my interpretation of it, and not rejecting God's word itself? I'd love an explanation of this, if you would please.

For me it is very easy. Read what the scripture context says word for word. Don't read into the scripture what the scriptures are not saying. The most important thing is to pray and ask God for His Spirit to be your personal guide and teacher. (see 2 Timothy 3:15-16; Matthew 4:4; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; 1 John 2:27 which are all a part of God's new covenant promise given in Hebrews 8:10-12 to those who believe and obey Gods Words (see Acts 5:29 and Acts 5:32; Romans 3:4; Galatians 5:16).

Lets According to the scriptures, none of us can claim to love God if we do not obey Him. Just the same as no one can claim to love their fellow man if they break those commandments that show us how to love our fellow man. You quote Romans 13:8-10 but once again these scripture do not support your view. They support what I have been sharing with you from the beginning and that is that love is not separate from faith and obedience to Gods Word. Love is expressed through obeying what Gods Word says and obedience to Gods Word is the fruit of someone that he genuine faith in Gods Word *see Romans 3:31. This is why John says that the test to know that we know God or not or if someone is telling us the truth is if we keep and obey Gods commandments. 1 John 2:3-4 says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." I reject you when you quote Gods Word because you read into the scripture whats not in the scripture and your interpretation of the scripture leads to breaking Gods commandments when the test to know of someone knows God or not and it telling the truth is obedience to Gods Word.

Take Care

 

[Windwalker]

For me it is very easy. Read what the scripture context says word for word. Don't read into the scripture what the scriptures are not saying. The most important thing is to pray and ask God for His Spirit to be your personal guide and teacher.

And what if someone believes they are doing just those things, and yet they walk away reading something differently from what you are reading from it? You shouldn't assume that they are sinning or hating or disobeying God, because they sincerely understand it differently from you, should you? And if you do assume that, why are you?

Do you see my point? It is your lack of humility that you cannot possibly be not seeing something others are, or that what you are seeing could possibly be wrong or leave some margin for improvement, that is more than off-putting to those you talk to. You judge them, and then claim it's not you judging them, but it's God judging them because they disagree with your point of view. This is far, far worse to do that going to church on the 1st day of the week instead of the 7th. Can you not see this?

(see 2 Timothy 3:15-16; Matthew 4:4; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; 1 John 2:27 which are all a part of God's new covenant promise given in Hebrews 8:10-12 to those who believe and obey Gods Words (see Acts 5:29 and Acts 5:32; Romans 3:4; Galatians 5:16).

Yes, I am familiar with all of these verses. That does not change what I said above how that different people who are equally sincere in the faith understanding the Bible differently from each other. Why are you judging and condemning them the way you are? This is a pure lack of humility on your part, unwilling to accept that might possibly not understand something others understand. I can tell you from my perspective, that is abundantly the case. You don't understand how I see it, and the things you say about me and others says that quite clearly.

Lets According to the scriptures, none of us can claim to love God if we do not obey Him.

If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we are obeying God. Why are you saying otherwise? Don't you agree with Paul's statement in Romans 13:10?

You quote Romans 13:8-10 but once again these scripture do not support your view. They support what I have been sharing with you from the beginning and that is that love is not separate from faith and obedience to Gods Word.

You fail to understand what it is saying. Love works no ill towards others. Eating a ham sandwich or going to church on Sunday, or Tuesday, or not at all, has nothing to do with that. Your making a big deal out of that, yet calling me a sinner, a teacher of lawlessness, not believing in God, threatening me with God's judgement, etc., is clear violation of Jesus' commandments to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Here is a prime example of how you read it, can be interpreted by you somehow to excuse away your bad actions towards others, while praising yourself for knowing the right day of the week to go to church on. Yet to me, I read it saying something quite the contrary to how you read it. Who is showing love here? Who is it then that is reading scriptures by being led by the Spirit, as you quoted?

Isn't being led by the Spirit, being led by Love? And isn't that what I've said all along. "I use Love to determine what scripture means". That is in fact, what happens when you pray for the Spirit to guide you. You see through the eyes of love, not judgment of others.

What do you think being led by the Spirit feels like?

Love is expressed through obeying what Gods Word says and obedience to Gods Word is the fruit of someone that he genuine faith in Gods Word *see Romans 3:31.

You have it backwards. The Pharisees obeyed God's word, but they were not led by the Spirit. They were led by their egos. You can claim obedience to the letter of the law, but are you lead by the Spirit, or your ego? Following the letter of the law, is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. Love is.

But Love works no ill. And therefore the verse you quote, that we "establish the law" through faith means exactly the same thing I have been saying. We fulfill the law through Love. We don't fulfill the law through strict observation of it. The Pharisees did that, yet did Jesus accept that from them as fulfilling the intent of the law? No. He did not. Ditto.

This is why John says that the test to know that we know God or not or if someone is telling us the truth is if we keep and obey Gods commandments. 1 John 2:3-4 says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

And that commandment is to love one another as I have loved you. Are you doing that with me in this thread, or are you calling me a sinner, a mocker of God, a teacher of lawlessness, and threatening me with the judgement of God? Are you keeping his commandments, really? Or are you just proud of yourself you think you know the right day of the week to go to church on as more important than that?

I reject you when you quote Gods Word because you read into the scripture whats not in the scripture and your interpretation of the scripture leads to breaking Gods commandments when the test to know of someone knows God or not and it telling the truth is obedience to Gods Word.

Take Care

You reject me. That's interesting. One would hope you just disagree with me, but I think your word choice says it all. You cannot tolerate those who think or believe differently than you. You must feel terribly threatened by that. As I said, I see your faith as terribly weak. It rests in beliefs, not in faith.

 

[3rdAngel]

And what if someone believes they are doing just those things, and yet they walk away reading something differently from what you are reading from it? You shouldn't assume that they are sinning or hating or disobeying God, because they sincerely understand it differently from you, should you? And if you do assume that, why are you?

Your micro-quoting again and not reading the posts you are quoting from. According to the scriptures the the difference is that God only give His Spirit to those who believe and obey His Word (Acts 5:32; Acts 2:38). The test to know if someone knows God and is from God is if they keep His commandments. Those who say they know God and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them *1 John 2:3-4.

Do you see my point? It is your lack of humility that you cannot possibly be not seeing something others are, or that what you are seeing could possibly be wrong or leave some margin for improvement, that is more than off-putting to those you talk to. You judge them, and then claim it's not you judging them, but it's God judging them because they disagree with your point of view. This is far, far worse to do that going to church on the 1st day of the week instead of the 7th. Can you not see this?

No your point was addressed with a detailed scripture response the first time but you ignored it. According to the scriptures the difference is that God only give His Spirit to those who believe and obey His Word (Acts 5:32; Acts 2:38). The test to know if someone knows God and is from God is if they keep His commandments. Those who say they know God and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them *1 John 2:3-4. I do not judge you. It is the scriptures that are Gods Words (not my words) that are our judge according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. According to the scriptures sin is the transgression of Gods law (1 John 3:4) or breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments *James 2:10-11. Gods 4th commandments is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken (Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20). Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath?

Yes, I am familiar with all of these verses. That does not change what I said above how that different people who are equally sincere in the faith understanding the Bible differently from each other. Why are you judging and condemning them the way you are? This is a pure lack of humility on your part, unwilling to accept that might possibly not understand something others understand. I can tell you from my perspective, that is abundantly the case. You don't understand how I see it, and the things you say about me and others says that quite clearly.

Those scriptures shared with you from 2 Timothy 3:15-16; Matthew 4:4; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; 1 John 2:27 which are all a part of God's new covenant promise given in Hebrews 8:10-12 to those who believe and obey Gods Words (see Acts 5:29 and Acts 5:32; Romans 3:4; Galatians 5:16 certainly does change what you said above. As posted earlier according to the scriptures the difference is that God only give His Spirit to those who believe and obey His Word (Acts 5:32; Acts 2:38). The test to know if someone knows God and is from God is if they keep His commandments. Those who say they know God and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them *1 John 2:3-4.

If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we are obeying God. Why are you saying otherwise? Don't you agree with Paul's statement in Romans 13:10?

Romans 13:8-10 agrees with what I have been sharing with you. Romans 13:8-10 does not agree with you. It is saying that love is expressed in obeying Gods 10 commandments not by breaking them.

You fail to understand what it is saying. Love works no ill towards others. Eating a ham sandwich or going to church on Sunday, or Tuesday, or not at all, has nothing to do with that. Your making a big deal out of that, yet calling me a sinner, a teacher of lawlessness, not believing in God, threatening me with God's judgement, etc., is clear violation of Jesus' commandments to "love your neighbor as yourself".

No, it is you who fails to understand what Romans 13:8-10 is saying. Lets not make excuses for sin now. Romans 13:8-10 says "8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law. 9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10, Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. So Paul is showing that if we love God we will keep and obey His commandments because obeying Gods commandment is how love is expressed through obeying Gods law not breaking Gods law. I have already posted here many times now showing from the scriptures that no one can claim to love God if they break anyone of Gods 10 commandments and that love is expressed in obedience to Gods law not breaking Gods law. That is the very definition of sin and that is what you are promoting. No one can claim to love God by breaking His law. Jesus says on these two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Paul agrees with Jesus when he says that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up obedience to those commandments that show us how to love our fellow man in Exodus 20:12-17. James also agrees with Jesus and Paul when he says in James 2:8-12 that we cannot claim to love our fellow man if we break any of Gods 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our neighbor. John also is in agreement with Jesus, Paul, and James when he defines the love of God in 1 John 5:2-3 and says "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." So love is not separate from Gods law. Love to God and man is expressed in obedience to Gods law from the heart. This is why John also says in 1 John 2:3-4 that the test to know if we know God and the truth of His Word is if we obey Gods commandments; "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Perhaps its time to re-evaluate what you believe dear friend receive Gods Word and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Words do not make them disappear because the words of God we choose to accept or reject become our judge come judgement day according to Jesus (see John 12:47-48)

more to come...

 

[3rdAngel]

Here is a prime example of how you read it, can be interpreted by you somehow to excuse away your bad actions towards others, while praising yourself for knowing the right day of the week to go to church on. Yet to me, I read it saying something quite the contrary to how you read it. Who is showing love here? Who is it then that is reading scriptures by being led by the Spirit, as you quoted?

No, as posted earlier there is a test to know if we know God or do not know God. According to the scriptures the difference is that God only give His Spirit to those who believe and obey His Word (Acts 5:32; Acts 2:38). The test to know if someone knows God and is from God is if they keep His commandments. Those who say they know God and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them *1 John 2:3-4. I do not judge you. It is the scriptures that are Gods Words (not my words) that are our judge according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. According to the scriptures sin is the transgression of Gods law (1 John 3:4) or breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments *James 2:10-11. Gods 4th commandments is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken (Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20). Once again there is not a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods 4th commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. Are you willing to gamble your salvation and continue in sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23) in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that have led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath?

Isn't being led by the Spirit, being led by Love? And isn't that what I've said all along. "I use Love to determine what scripture means". That is in fact, what happens when you pray for the Spirit to guide you. You see through the eyes of love, not judgment of others.

Yes this is Gods new covenant promise but as posted many times now love is expressed according to the scriptures in obeying Gods commandments *Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; James 2:8-12. John is also in agreement with Jesus, Paul and James when he says in 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous and again in 1 John 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. As posted many times now the scriptures teach love is not separate from Gods law. Love is expressed in obeying Gods law not breaking Gods law. Breaking Gods law is the very definition of someone that does not know God and stands before God guilty of sin (1 John 3:4).

You have it backwards. The Pharisees obeyed God's word, but they were not led by the Spirit. They were led by their egos. You can claim obedience to the letter of the law, but are you lead by the Spirit, or your ego? Following the letter of the law, is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. Love is. But Love works no ill. And therefore the verse you quote, that we "establish the law" through faith means exactly the same thing I have been saying. We fulfill the law through Love. We don't fulfill the law through strict observation of it. The Pharisees did that, yet did Jesus accept that from them as fulfilling the intent of the law? No. He did not. Ditto. And that commandment is to love one another as I have loved you. Are you doing that with me in this thread, or are you calling me a sinner, a mocker of God, a teacher of lawlessness, and threatening me with the judgement of God? Are you keeping his commandments, really? Or are you just proud of yourself you think you know the right day of the week to go to church on as more important than that? You reject me. That's interesting. One would hope you just disagree with me, but I think your word choice says it all. You cannot tolerate those who think or believe differently than you. You must feel terribly threatened by that. As I said, I see your faith as terribly weak. It rests in beliefs, not in faith.

Your repeating yourself. See the above scriptures that are in disagreement with your teachings of lawlessness. According to the scriptures if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will die in our sins and do not know God and do not love Him (Hebrews 10:26-31; Matthew 7:13-23; Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 3:4-10; John 14:15; John 15:10)

Take Care.