WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[3rdAngel]

Absolutely... and we understand that the Hebrew verse chapter 4:9 is talking about the time of Joshua and the answer was not to far away: but 10 says:
Hebrews 4:10
For whoever enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.

And who is our rest?

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest) who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Also, let us remember that Jesus was closing out the application of the Law for those who enter into the rest when He finished the work during the death, burial and resurrection.

Luke 4:18-20
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

The favorable year of the Lord is referencing the Year of Jubilee - a year of rest where

Lev 25: 10. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family. 11 You shall have the fiftieth year as a jubilee; you shall not sow, nor harvest its aftergrowth, nor gather grapes from its untrimmed vines. 12 For it is a jubilee; it shall be holy to you. You shall eat its produce from the field. 13 ‘On this year of jubilee each of you shall return to his own property.

39 ‘Now if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave’s service. 40 He shall be with you as a hired worker, as if he were a foreign resident; he shall serve with you up to the year of jubilee. 41 He shall then leave you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, so that he may return to the property of his forefathers.

The application :

We return to the state of Adam before he sinned. Our position is restored, our authority is restored, God gives us our daily bread, we are no longer slaves to sin, we go back to the family of God... we have entered into the rest that is not of works but of grace through faith.

Actually none of that is true whatsoever Kenny but let me show why from the scriptures so it is helpful. You are missing the contexts of Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 which is showing that no one enters into Gods rest if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says. Gods rest is defined in the context you have left out in Hebrews 4:1-5 which is defined as the seventh day Sabbath that was created since the foundation of the world and we which believe enter into that rest (Hebrews 4:3). Hebrews 4:9-11 is continuing saying therefore ""it (the Sabbath) remains"" or is left behind for the people of God to keep the Sabbath. Context is king here and you have simply ignored it.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

FULL CONTEXT OF HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4

Let's look at the scriptures in detail...

Hebrews 3:8-19
8, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, IN THE DAY OF TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS:
9, When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10, Why I WAS GRIEVED WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, THEY DO ALWAYS ERR IN THEIR HEART; AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.
11, SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO MY REST.
12, TAKE HEED, BROTHERS, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; LEST ANY OF YOU BE HARDENED THROUGH THE DECEITFULNESS OF SIN.
14, For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST TO THE END;
15, While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation.
16, For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17, BUT WITH WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, WHOSE CARCASSES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS?
18, And to whom swore he THAT THEY SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO HIS REST, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
19, So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

KEY POINTS FORM THE SCRIPTURES TO NOTE...

• Hebrews 3:8 A warning not to harden our hearts to God's Word
• Hebrews 3:9-10 Those in the wilderness tempted God 40 years and did not obey him or his ways
• Hebrews 3:11 God swore they would not enter into "His Rest" (Genesis 2:1-3; see Ezekiel 20:10-13)
• Hebrews 3:12 Another warning not to harden our hearts in unbelief departing from God
• Hebrews 3:13 Encourage one and other lest we harden our hearts in sin (breaking Gods' law 1 John 3:4)
• Hebrews 3:14 We are only partakers of Christ "IF" we hold the the faith steadfast to the end
• Hebrews 3:15-17 More warnings not to harden our hearts as those who sinned died in the wilderness
• Hebrews 3:18-19 God did not let them enter into "His rest" because they were in unbelie

Note: Hebrews 3 and it's link to Ezekiel 20:10-13 how God's people were breaking "His Sabbath" and God poured out his judgements on them...

EZEKIEL 20:10-13 [10], Why I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt and BROUGHT THEM INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11], and I GAVE THEM MY STATUTES, AND SHOWED THEM MY JUDGMENTS, WHICH IF A MAN DO, HE SHALL LIVE IN THEM. [12], MOREOVER ALSO I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THEM THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM. [13], BUT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL REBELLED AGAINST ME IN THE WILDERNESS: THEY WALKED NOT IN MY STATUTES AND DESPISED MY JUDGMENTS WHICH IF A MAN DO THEY SHALL LIVE IN THEM AND MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: THEN I SAID I WOULD POUR OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

Note: Hebrews 3 and it's links to Psalms 95:2-11 and Ezekiel 20:10-13 which is also over worshiping God as the God of creation and the Sabbath commandment and not entering God's rest (the seventh day created from the foundation of the world)...

Psalms 95:2-11
[2], Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise to him with psalms.
[3], For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
[4], In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.
[5], The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.
[6], O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
[7], For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if you will hear his voice,
[8], HARDEN NOT YOUR HEART, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, AND AS IN THE DAY OF TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS:
[9], WHEN YOUR FATHERS TEMPTED ME, PROVED ME, AND SAW MY WORK.
[10], FORTY YEARS LONG WAS I GRIEVED WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, IT IS A PEOPLE THAT DO ERR IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS:
[11], TO WHOM I SWORE IN MY WRATH THAT THEY SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO MY REST.

Note the link back to what Hebrews 3 is quoting....

• Psalms 95:2-7 is worshiping the only true creator God of heaven and earth
• Psalms 95:8 "Harden not your hearts as in the provocation in the wilderness (see Hebrews 3:8)
• Psalms 95:9 "When your fathers tempted me 40 years" (see Hebrews 3:9)
• Psalms 95:10 40 years Gods' people did not know God's ways (Hebrews 3:10)
• Psalms 95:11 Because God's people did not know God's ways they did not enter His rest (Hebrews 3:11)

.................

Summary: Hebrews 3 is has links to Ezekiel 20:10-12 and is directly quoting from Psalms 95 which is about worshiping the only true God and creator of heaven and earth. God's people did not know God's ways and broke His Sabbaths and God did not give them His rest. They could not enter into God's rest because of unbelief and sin and God poured out His judgements on them because they broke his Sabbaths and they died in the wilderness because of their unbelief and sins.

Let's define what Gods' rest/My rest/His rest is from the scriptures in the next post

more to come...

 

[Kenny]

Actually none of that is true whatsoever Kenny but let me show why from the scriptures so it is helpful. You are missing the contexts of Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 which is showing that no one enters into Gods rest if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says. Gods rest is defined in the context you have left out in Hebrews 4:1-5 which is defined as the seventh day Sabbath that was created since the foundation of the world and we which believe enter into that rest (Hebrews 4:3). Hebrews 4:9-11 is continuing saying therefore ""it (the Sabbath) remains"" or is left behind for the people of God to keep the Sabbath. Context is king here and you have simply ignored it.

Take Care.

we can agree to disagree:

4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. (Apparently we can have this rest)

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (we also cease in a "work" relations - as God has ceased)

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (some did not because they did not exercise faith - Ephesian 2:8-9)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (as I stipulated before... we also cease from our own work related relations - we entered into that rest)

Much of Hebrews deals with our eternal High-Priest that gives us access into the throne by and through Jesus Christ.

 

[3rdAngel]

WHAT IS GOD'S REST/HIS REST/MY REST OF HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?
(complete context of Hebrews 4:1-11)

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT.
[2], FOR TO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT.
[3], For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

• Hebrews 4:1 More warnings to fear if we do not enter into "His rest" if we fall short of it.
• Hebrews 4:2 Because unto us was the gospel preached as well us unto them but they did not believe
• Hebrews 4:3 We who believe (present tense) enter into God's rest from the foundation of the world
• Hebrews 4:4 Reference of Hebrews 4:3 is to the Gods' Sabbath rest of the "seventh day"
• Hebrews 4:4-5 God's rest is the seventh day Sabbath of creation that we enter into by faith
• Genesis 2:1-3 Links to Hebrews 4:3-4 defining God's rest as "the seventh day"

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

more to come..

 

[3rdAngel]

Continuing from the last post in regards to Hebrews 4:9

HEBREWS 4:9 [9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

...............

For your interest, the Greek word used here for Sabbath is Sabbatismos and means a Sabbath keeping or keeping of the Sabbath or how the Sabbath is kept by resting.

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath keeping) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. (Note the rest of Vines comments is not the Greek it is his opinion)

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

…………..

Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day"). There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14.

................

OVERALL SUMMARY:

Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is a WARNING which is showing that no one enters into Gods rest if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says. Gods rest is defined in the context you have left out in Hebrews 4:1-5 which is defined as the seventh day Sabbath that was created since the foundation of the world and we which believe enter into that rest (Hebrews 4:3). Hebrews 4:9-11 is continuing saying therefore ""it (the Sabbath) remains"" or is left behind for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

God's rest/ His rest/ My rest is defined in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 as the Sabbath rest. From the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation. Our rest is that of believing and following Gods' Word. No one enters into God's rest (defined in Hebrews as the "seventh day Sabbath") unless they believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel rest). Of course God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) are a part of God's Word (the gospel) that God's people who enter into Gods rest believe and follow in Gods' Word just like Jesus did and the Apostles and prophets in Gods' Word. Everything provided here are not my words but have been taken directly from the scriptures which are God's Words not mine (exegesis). The warnings here are very clear. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word in order to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments - James 2:10-11) just like those in the wilderness do not enter into Gods' rest (seventh day Sabbath) and will be in danger of the judgement to come (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Sorry Kenny you are quite wrong here. I pray you will receive Gods correction and be blessed. Do not make the mistake that Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is talking about not to harden our hearts in sin and unbelief. Context is king here and you have simply ignored it.

Take Care.

 

[paarsurrey]

Your response here...

As we have it today we know that before the written Word of God after Exodus 20 we have the direct spoken word of God (e.g. Genesis 3:1-22; 6:18; 9:9; 9:11-17; 15:8; 17:2-21; 21:32; 31:44 etc etc). In the time of Moses in the Exodus God revealed the 10 commandments to Moses at Mt Siana and the Israelite's by the spoken Word of God and the recorded written words of God see Exodus 20:3-17 and Exodus 32:16.

Take Care.

Does one mean that Jesus/Yeshua- the Israelite truthful Messiah had no Direct Word of G-d?

Regards

 

[3rdAngel]

Does one mean that Jesus/Yeshua- the Israelite truthful Messiah had no Direct Word of G-d?

Regards

Jesus is Gods Word (see John 1:1-4; 14) and also one with the father (John 17:11).

 

[Muffled]

If ALL the commandments relate to the two biggies, that would include resting on a seventh day sabbath, eating kosher, etc. Are you saying you keep these laws?

I rest when I need to and worship when I need to. I eat what is good for my health. I am saying Jesus fulfilled the law and since He is in me, I do also.

 

[Muffled]

Of course Jesus did not keep the Sabbath like the Pharisees. No one said he did. Jesus taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath and it is lawful do do good on the Sabbath and he was the Lord and creator of the Sabbath right (see Matthew 12:1-12; Mark 2:27-28).

I believe that is the way it is. Jesus is my Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[Muffled]

Does one mean that Jesus/Yeshua- the Israelite truthful Messiah had no Direct Word of G-d?

Regards

I believe He is the Word of God as it says in John 1:1.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe He is the Word of God as it says in John 1:1.

And what do you mean by that? Are you saying that Jesus is a book?

 

[Kathryn]

Sorry, I'm Catholic and in our ten commandments the fourth one is "honor your father and mother," which I do. I also go to mass every Sunday and day of obligation.

Also, I believe that the Ten Commandments, which are in the Old Testament (Exodus and Deuteronomy) mention keeping the Sabbath day holy, which i actually not Sunday. I mean, as we know it today.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I rest when I need to and worship when I need to. I eat what is good for my health. I am saying Jesus fulfilled the law and since He is in me, I do also.

So basically, NO, you do NOT keep the Law.

 

[3rdAngel]

Sorry, I'm Catholic and in our ten commandments the fourth one is "honor your father and mother," which I do. I also go to mass every Sunday and day of obligation.

Also, I believe that the Ten Commandments, which are in the Old Testament (Exodus and Deuteronomy) mention keeping the Sabbath day holy, which i actually not Sunday. I mean, as we know it today.

I think you guys have removed the commandment in regards to idol worship (Exodus 20:4-6 in my bible) and changed the seventh day Sabbath commandment to "the Lords day" to mean Sunday again which is not in the bible.... and split the commandments on coveting into two to make up for it in Exodus 20:17

I am talking about Gods commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 that says " 8, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and made it holy.

The OP is asking where is the scripture that says the seventh day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus?

Take Care.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think you guys have removed the commandment in regards to idol worship

This is a common misundertanding. Catholics group the 17 verses differently than Protestants, but they don't remove any verses.

For Jews, not making idols is part of the second commandment, which is verses 3-6

For Catholics, not making idols is part of the first commandment, which is verse 2-6

For Protestants, not making idols is part of the second commandment, which for them is verses 4-6

But in all three cases, not making idols IS part of the ten commandments.

 

[3rdAngel]

This is a common misundertanding. Catholics group the 17 verses differently than Protestants, but they don't remove any verses.

For Jews, not making idols is part of the second commandment, which is verses 3-6

For Catholics, not making idols is part of the first commandment, which is verse 2-6

For Protestants, not making idols is part of the second commandment, which for them is verses 4-6

But in all three cases, not making idols IS part of the ten commandments.

Have a look at the Roman Catholic Catechism

The Catholic Church removes the second Commandment against MAKING graven images from the in Exodus 20:2-17.
This presents them with the problem of only having 9 Commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting Commandment in regards to coveting. That is: 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

WHAT ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD FOR THE RCC ?

The Commandments of God are these ten:
“I am the Lord your God:
1. You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day. (no such commandment)
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.” Exodus 20:1-17

The number Two Commandment should be “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” Exodus 20:4-6.

Check your Catechism to see if they have left it out.

DCAM > Catholic Faith > Church Teaching > The Ten Commandments

www.cam1.org.au

Catechism of the Catholic Church

www.usccb.org

The Catholic Ten Commandments | beginningCatholic.com

What are the Catholic Ten Commandments? Get the full list, with a readable guide keyed to the Catechism.

www.beginningcatholic.com

The Ten Commandments

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Take Care

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Have a look at the Roman Catholic Catechism

The Catholic Church removes the second Commandment against MAKING graven images from the in Exodus 20:2-17.
This presents them with the problem of only having 9 Commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting Commandment in regards to coveting. That is: 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

WHAT ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD FOR THE RCC ?

The Commandments of God are these ten:
“I am the Lord your God:
1. You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day. (no such commandment)
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.” Exodus 20:1-17

The number Two Commandment should be “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” Exodus 20:4-6.

Check your Catechism to see if they have left it out.

DCAM > Catholic Faith > Church Teaching > The Ten Commandments

www.cam1.org.au

Catechism of the Catholic Church

www.usccb.org

The Catholic Ten Commandments | beginningCatholic.com

What are the Catholic Ten Commandments? Get the full list, with a readable guide keyed to the Catechism.

www.beginningcatholic.com

The Ten Commandments

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Take Care

I'm sorry, but you are being deliberately dense. As I already stated, the verse prohibiting idols is PART of the the first commandment for Catholics. They may abbreviate it as "you shall not have strange gods before me" but in fact it includes ALL the verses 3-6. "
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

IOW having no idols is a SUBCATEGORY of not having other gods. It is this way for Jews as well.

 

[3rdAngel]

I'm sorry, but you are being deliberately dense. As I already stated, the verse prohibiting idols is PART of the the first commandment for Catholics. They may abbreviate it as "you shall not have strange gods before me" but in fact it includes ALL the verses 3-6. "
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

IOW having no idols is a SUBCATEGORY of not having other gods. It is this way for Jews as well.

Yep thats is typical right? Unable to address the post content so attack the poster and ignore the post content in the scriptures that are in disagreement with you word for word. Unlike you I do not ignore what the scripture say in the written Word of God and turn a blind eye to what others write and believe to make excuses for sin and unbelief. Gods commandment says that we should not make any idols, or bow down them them in Exodus 20:4-6. This is not written in the Catholic Catechism. Yet bowing down to man-made images of Jesus, Mary and the Saints is practiced through nearly every Roman Catholic Church inside and outside these statues are set up. Sorry dear friend but you can probably tell that I do not believe you. I prefer what the scriptures actually say. Not what they do not say. Beside the scriptures you ignored I posted you four Catholic sources. You ignored every one of them as you do the scriptures when they are in disagreement with you.

GOD'S COMMANDMENT SAYS

Exodus 20:4-6 4, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Lets not make excuses for sin and let the individual readers make up their own minds and we will agree to disagree.

Take Care

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yep thats is typical right? Unable to address the post content so attack the poster and ignore the post content in the scriptures that are in disagreement with you word for word. Unlike you I do not ignore what the scripture say in the written Word of God and turn a blind eye to what others write and believe to make excuses for sin and unbelief. Gods commandment says that we should not make any idols, or bow down them them in Exodus 20:4-6. This is not written in the Catholic Catechism. Yet bowing down to man-made images of Jesus, Mary and the Saints is practiced through nearly every Roman Catholic Church inside and outside these statues are set up. Sorry dear friend but you can probably tell that I do not believe you. I prefer what the scriptures actually say. Not what they do not say. Beside the scriptures you ignored I posted you four Catholic sources. You ignored every one of them as you do the scriptures when they are in disagreement with you.


Take Care

Aren't you the one who insists that Exodus 20 identifies the sabbath as the fourth commandment, but then can't quote where this is done? You are simply making the same mistake here, assuming that "no idols" is the second commandment. In the process, you end up spreading lies about Catholics, who do indeed believe it is wrong to have idols. As I informed you, for Catholics, teh first commandment is verses 2-6, which INCLUDES no idols. But you have already made up your mind, and I assume you will continue lying about Catholics without any qualms.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch:
ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

www.scborromeo.org

And you are right. I don't reply to every single point you make, because this is a forum, not a place for a book. I narrow my response to your most glaring error.

 

[3rdAngel]

Aren't you the one who insists that Exodus 20 identifies the sabbath as the fourth commandment, but then can't quote where this is done?

No I have said no such thing accept to make reference to what the Protestant and Hebrew bible teaches as Gods 4th commandment as being the seventh day Sabbath of Gods 10 commandments. Then asked the question in the OP that us asking where is the scripture that says Gods seventh day Sabbath of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus? You have been the one trying to make the OP about anything else to what is being asked in it.

You are simply making the same mistake here, assuming that "no idols" is the second commandment. In the process, you end up spreading lies about Catholics, who do indeed believe it is wrong to have idols.

Once again you are not being truthful and I made no assumption. I simply pointed out that the full commandment is not practiced in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church by providing four different Catholic sources you ignored and also providing the full scripture and pictorial evidence of the commandment not being followed. As posted earlier there was no mistake the commandment says word for word in

Exodus 20:4-6 4, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

That is what the commandment says. Lets not ignore what the scriptures teach and start making excuses for sin.

As I informed you, for Catholics, teh first commandment is verses 2-6, which INCLUDES no idols. But you have already made up your mind, and I assume you will continue lying about Catholics without any qualms.

Once again your posting nonsense. I have not assumed anything. I posted you four different Catholic sources of the Catholic Catechism all stating the same things. You simply chose to ignore them here..

DCAM > Catholic Faith > Church Teaching > The Ten Commandments

www.cam1.org.au

Catechism of the Catholic Church

www.usccb.org

The Catholic Ten Commandments | beginningCatholic.com

What are the Catholic Ten Commandments? Get the full list, with a readable guide keyed to the Catechism.

www.beginningcatholic.com

The Ten Commandments

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

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From the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch:
ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

www.scborromeo.org

This was the only source of the Roman Catholic Catechism that actually quotes Exodus 20:2-5 but then you fail to read the rest of the linked Catechism you are quoting from which is agreeing with what I have already posted to you and is arguing against obeying Exodus 20:2-5 and trying to justify making idols and bowing down to them which does not support anything you are saying here. Please read the content of the whole link you posted which is only supporting what I have already said to you.

What did you miss by not reading what you posted?

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.

You made a BIG BLUNDER here by not reading everything you posted which has only supported everything I have said to you already. What you posted starts off by quoting Exodus 20:2-5 then seeks to is argue against obeying Exodus 20:2-5 and tries to justify making idols and bowing down to them which does not support anything you are saying here. Please read the content of the whole link you posted which is only supporting what I have already said to you.

And you are right. I don't reply to every single point you make, because this is a forum, not a place for a book. I narrow my response to your most glaring error.

See the previous section of this post to see why your mistakes lead you into error.

Take Care.