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WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
So do you believe the written canonized books of scripture from the 6th century overrides what God is speaking directly to the hearts of His children, yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
Before the written words of God that we have today there was the directly spoken words of God to those who believed and wanted to follow God. God does indeed talk to His people but according to the scriptures so does the devil. Therefore if what we believe we hear is from God we need to test the Spirits to see if they are from God or not from God. For example if what we believe we hear is from God and does not align with the the scriptures or is in against what the scriptures teach then we can know that what we thought was from God is not from God. Hope that helps.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Before the written words of God that we have today there was the directly spoken words of God to those who believed and wanted to follow God. God does indeed talk to His people but according to the scriptures so does the devil. Therefore if what we believe we hear is from God we need to test the Spirits to see if they are from God or not from God.
I agree with you right up to here.
For example if what we believe we hear is from God and does not align with the the scriptures or is in against what the scriptures teach then we can know that what we thought was from God is not from God. Hope that helps.
I don't put as much faith in the Roman councils of men that determined the scriptures as you. I ask for guidance in ALL THINGS.

As is stated in James 1:5,6: "5Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

And there are some scriptures I don't agree with or abide by. Especially Paul's instructions to the new churches and their congregants.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I don't put as much faith in the Roman councils of men that determined the scriptures as you. I ask for guidance in ALL THINGS.

As is stated in James 1:5,6: "5Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

And there are some scriptures I don't agree with or abide by. Especially Paul's instructions to the new churches and their congregants.
Me neither brother, however I believe God is in control of His Words. The bible's old testament scriptures we have today is pretty much the same as the Hebrew or Jewish bible. Then we have the new testament scriptures made up of the 4x gospels and the writings of the Apostles. I believe both the old testament and new testament scriptures of Jesus and the Apostles are collectively Gods Word.

I understand what you are saying (I think correct me if you are not saying this) it does not matter how accurate our bibles are if God is not our personal guide and teacher because it is written in Isaiah 55:8-9 that Gods Words and ways are to high for us to understand unless He is our personal guide and teacher. That said God promises to give His Spirit to those who ask Him and believe and obey what His Word says (see John 7:17; John 14:26 and John 16:13).

Take Care.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So do you believe the written canonized books of scripture from the 6th century overrides what God is speaking directly to the hearts of His children, yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
Well, you have to admit that on a practical level, having a sacred text means everyone has a foundation of the same basic teachings. If you open it up to every human heart, then you have as many different conflicting truths as there are people.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not to the conversation but to 18 yrs on nursing staff of an Orthodox Jewish health care facility. Those who
delivered the breakfast trays to the rooms on Sabbath must open the cereal boxes for the residents because,
otherwise, they would have too 'tare' open the individual box of cereal.
Well, sure. The Orthodox have a LOT of rules. I'm sure their food couldn't be cooked in your regular kitchen either, nor could they turn on and off their lights on the Shabbat.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I wrote in #1,530 that Abraham wasn't living under the Old Covenant, which was given by God after the exodus from Egypt, long after Abraham lived.
Actually we kind of view the covenant with Abraham as version 1.0, and Sinai as 2.0. Same covenant. Just upgraded.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Simply because YOU don't know God doesn't mean that He can't be known. I and others know God today, as have many people throughout history.
He is actually correct. You can believe in God. I certainly believe in God. But believing is not the same as knowing. Knowing means a thing has been proven. God can be neither proven nor disproven.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Where does it say Abraham did not keep Gods law? Genesis 26:5 5, Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Before the written word was the spoken words of God.
The question is, which commandments was this verse referring to? Given that God had not yet given the commandment to keep the Sabbath, I would assume that was not one of them. We also know that Abraham served meat and dairy together when the three messengers came, so clearly, not that one either.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Me neither brother, however I believe God is in control of His Words. The bible's old testament scriptures we have today is pretty much the same as the Hebrew or Jewish bible. Then we have the new testament scriptures made up of the 4x gospels and the writings of the Apostles. I believe both the old testament and new testament scriptures of Jesus and the Apostles are collectively Gods Word.

I understand what you are saying (I think correct me if you are not saying this) it does not matter how accurate our bibles are if God is not our personal guide and teacher because it is written in Isaiah 55:8-9 that Gods Words and ways are to high for us to understand unless He is our personal guide and teacher. That said God promises to give His Spirit to those who ask Him and believe and obey what His Word says (see John 7:17; John 14:26 and John 16:13).

Take Care.
I can accept that. Listen to God in your personal relationship with Him, for just as an earthly father may have household rules, he always has the authority to bend or override those rules for each of his children as he sees best, for he alone is the head of the household -- in partnership where applicable, of course! LOL.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Well, you have to admit that on a practical level, having a sacred text means everyone has a foundation of the same basic teachings. If you open it up to every human heart, then you have as many different conflicting truths as there are people.
True -- foundation of basic teachings. And the conflicting truths is apparent in the various religion, sects/denominations within. I think Jame's, or the author of, had already seen the confusion and the direction it was headed and gave excellent advice in 1:5,6 and also in 2:17, 3:1,2 and 4:17 -- as well as other verses.

I also refer back to The Preacher, often:
Ecc 1:2 "2Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity." Ecc 12:11,12 "11The words of the wise are like goads, and the anthologies of the masters are like firmly embedded nails driven by a single Shepherd.b 12And by these, my son, be further warned: There is no end to the making of many books, and much study wearies the body."
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
True -- foundation of basic teachings. And the conflicting truths is apparent in the various religion, sects/denominations within. I think Jame's, or the author of, had already seen the confusion and the direction it was headed and gave excellent advice in 1:5,6 and also in 2:17, 3:1,2 and 4:17 -- as well as other verses.

I also refer back to The Preacher, often:
Ecc 1:2 "2Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity." Ecc 12:11,12 "11The words of the wise are like goads, and the anthologies of the masters are like firmly embedded nails driven by a single Shepherd.b 12And by these, my son, be further warned: There is no end to the making of many books, and much study wearies the body."
Ecclesiastes in indeed my favorite book of the Tanakh. I prefer the translation, "Emptiness, Emptiness."
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Ecclesiastes in indeed my favorite book of the Tanakh. I prefer the translation, "Emptiness, Emptiness."
Ohhh, I hadn't heard that one. I like it. Meaningless and futile are also good. At one time I had an online Hebrew Bible that used "vapor", but the current one I have bookmarked translates to vanity. Ecclesiastes is my favorite, too, followed by Genesis, and Proverbs, though Jeremiah is growing on me. Then Matthew, followed by James in the NT.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Your response here...

No its not nonsense. You are missing the point again. God reveals himself to those who seek to know Him (Jeremiah 29:13) and not to those who seek to live their lives in sin and unbelief. Finding God according to the scriptures is conditional to believing and obeying what Gods Word says. However, we can never find God or know Him if we continue in our sins and unbelief. Sin separates us from God so that we cannot find Him or know Him (Isaiah 59:2; John 9:31; Micah 3:4; Psalms 66:18-19; Proverbs 28:9; 1 John 3:22).

Well, if it works for you to make you a better person, I can very much appreciate that. However, please do realize that approach is entirely subjective, not objective. What works for you may not work for many others.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1

Notice it says "being sure". I believe the Bible and have personal experience that verifies what it says. Therefore, my faith does NOT depend on what is taught by others.

That's fine, but I hope you recognize that many other people take refuge in the teachings of other religions, and who's to say which is supposedly the "only true religion"-- if any.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I did not post bigotry, that is what you are doing. I posted scripture. I know the above because the scriptures attached say what is posted above.

But the scriptures you're posting are not the only scriptures written.

Go read them.

I taught them.

There's a saying that goes: If you have one clock, you will know exactly what time it is; but if you have several clocks, you can't be sure exactly what time it is.

There are people in many faiths and philosophies who have very strong beliefs as you do, but self-centeredness can make a person so highly judgmental and willing to condemn other faiths and philosophies, which is so utterly hypocritical. If believing Jesus as being one's savior is so essential, then what about all the people before Jesus' time or who live in areas of the world who never heard of Jesus? Didn't God care about them?
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Lets see what the scriptures say. You make the statement that Gods 10 commandments do not apply to new covenant Christians. You were just posted scripture proving that in Gods new covenant Gods law is to be written in the heart through faith that works by love. This is the very definition of Gods new covenant promise. Now think about what you are saying. Are you really going to try and argue now that we can love our fellow man by lying, stealing from them, murdering them or love God by having other gods in our lives, making idols and bowing down to them; using Gods name in vain or breaking Gods Sabbath? Of course not right? According to scripture and the very words of Jesus love is not separate from obedience to Gods law. Love is expressed by obeying what Gods law says. Obedience to Gods law is the fruit of someone that loves God and their neighbour as them selves and is why Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 On these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Breaking Gods law according to the scriptures in the new covenant is the very definition of what sin is (see 1 John 3:4 comp James 2:10-11). So you are quite wrong here brother if you believe you can continue living in a life of known unrepentant sin breaking Gods commandments and call yourself a Christian. Those who make those claim are not Christian according to 1 John 2:3-4.

I would challenge you here and be bold enough to say that it is you who is taking scripture out of context to promote teachings of lawlessness which is no where taught in the old and new testament scriptures. As evidence of my claims here if you read the complete context of Romans 6-8 you will see your interpretation of Romans 7 is in contradiction to scriptures from the same book of Romans and the rest of the bible. Romans 7 is talking about the experience of the unconverted man outside of Christ under the law of sin and death. Furthermore, there are more than one law being spoken of here in Romans 7. There is the law of sin and death working in the members, of an uncoverted man not in Christs which is what Romans 7:4-6 and also Romans 7:18-24 is talking about. There is Gods law that is described as Holy, just and good in Romans 7:7 that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (sin being breaking Gods law here). Further proof for you that Romans 7:5-6 is talking about the unconverted man outside of Christ is also the Greek. Search it up. Lets look at Romans 7:5-6 for example; [5], For when we were in the FLESH <G4561 same grk word used as CARNAL ; Carnal/FLESH = carnal mind or sinful human nature (not in Christ)>, the passions of sins, which were by the law , did work in our members (sinful mind/flesh) <SIN> to bring forth fruit unto death <ROMANS 6:23, The WAGES OF SIN is DEATH>. [6], But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW (law of sin and death through faith in Christ - married to Christ) BEING DEAD TO THAT WHICH HELD US <SIN - what held us was sin leading us to death - now see the context here of Romans 6:1-23> THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT <NEW COVENANT PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT; Ezekiel 36:26-27; Jeremiah 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:10-12> and not in the oldness of the letter (KNOWLEDGE OF SIN). Happy to so a complete break down of Romans 6; Romans 7 and Romans 8 if you want to discuss this futher. You can't take single scriptures from Romans 7 in isolation to the rest of the bible and make claims Gods 10 commandments are now abolished. That is a teaching of lawlessness unsupported in both the old and new testament scriptures as already proven in our discussion of the scriptures, so far.

I have not provided any scripture from Jesus or elsewhere that is not applicable to our discussion. It is Gods Word that we are to live by right. (Matthew 4:4). Now think through your argument here Jimb. Are you really trying to argue that because Jesus says something to the Jews its not relevant to non-Jewish believers? If that is what you are trying to argue then you are trying to argue that the Gospels are only for the Jews and not for all mankind. See where your argument is leading? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17, That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. While Jesus also tells us in Matthew 4:4 quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. What you are claiming here is therefore simply wrong brother.

You made the claim here that you believe I have posted scripture out of context in your opinion. Prove to me from any one of my posts that I have taken scripture out of its context it is does not mean what I have stated it means. If you cannot all you have provided here is a statement you are unable to prove right? I posted to you above why I believe you interpretation of Romans 7:5-6 is a false interpretation of lawlessness by providing scripture context that was in disagreement with your interpretation of two scriptures pulled out of context to the rest of the chapter and Romans 6 and Romans 7. Now how about you do the same and prove your claims. If you cannot all you are doing is not only wasting your time but also mine.

Take Care.
Can you compress this l-e-n-g-t-h-y post into something shorter? I would like to discuss this issue with you, perhaps point-by-point, but I can't respond to your post in its entirety.

A couple of things I did notice toward the end of your post...

You said, "Romans 7 is in contradiction to scriptures from the same book of Romans and the rest of the bible." All that says to me is that you don't understand what Paul wrote.

And yes, of course we are to live by God's word and to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Because Jesus says something to the Jews its often not relevant to non-Jewish believers. Jesus spoke to people who were not born again or filled with the Spirit, i.e., they were not believers. It is important when reading the Bible to understand to whom it is being addressed, whether spoken or written.

Matthew 13:10-15, "The disciples came to him [Jesus] and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them."
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You don't make a point by ignoring the relevant text.
The Bible says what it says. Abraham's experience with God occurred l-o-n-g before the Old Testament, a.k.a., the First Covenant was given to Moses.
 
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