WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[Ebionite]

The Bible says what it says.

The point remains that you're ignoring text that does not conform to your preconceptions.

 

[jimb]

The point remains that you're ignoring text that does not conform to your preconceptions.

No, I'm ignoring your incorrect interpretation of the text. Abraham followed God's instructions l-o-n-g before there was any written covenant. You are making the mistake of incorrectly interpreting the Bible to fit your preconception.

 

[Ebionite]

No, I'm ignoring your incorrect interpretation of the text.

Why do you think that it is incorrect?

 

[3rdAngel]

The question is, which commandments was this verse referring to?

Funny enough if you the English translation of the text rendered laws in Genesis 26:5 is תֹּורָה (tôwrâh | H8451); Derivation: or תֹּרָה; from יָרָה;
Strong's: a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch. During this time Abraham had the spoken words of God and was practicing the laws of atonement for sin. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to believe that God taught Abraham His commandments and laws so that he could understand was sin was. Interestingly the scriptures also show that Gods people has a knowledge of His laws and what sin was prior to Mt Sinai and the Exodus.

Given that God had not yet given the commandment to keep the Sabbath, I would assume that was not one of them.

Well to make the claim that God had not yet given the commandment to keep the Sabbath again is an assumption not stated in the scriptures. The evidence however leans toward Abraham having access to the spoken Word of God and what God says of Abraham in Genesis 26:5 with Abraham knowing and obeying His torah and commandments.

We also know that Abraham served meat and dairy together when the three messengers came, so clearly, not that one either.

Serving meat and dairy together at a meal is not the same as the scripture command not to boil and cook the meat in the mothers milk.

 

[3rdAngel]

You constantly, constantly post more than scripture. You regularly insert your interpretation into your texts.

I post what is written in the scriptures for all to see. We are in a scripture debate section of the forum. What is your point? You did not make one.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: No its not nonsense. You are missing the point again. God reveals himself to those who seek to know Him (Jeremiah 29:13) and not to those who seek to live their lives in sin and unbelief. Finding God according to the scriptures is conditional to believing and obeying what Gods Word says. However, we can never find God or know Him if we continue in our sins and unbelief. Sin separates us from God so that we cannot find Him or know Him (Isaiah 59:2; John 9:31; Micah 3:4; Psalms 66:18-19; Proverbs 28:9; 1 John 3:22).

Your response here..

Well, if it works for you to make you a better person, I can very much appreciate that. However, please do realize that approach is entirely subjective, not objective. What works for you may not work for many others.

I do not see it as subjective at all. As a Christian we are to believe and obey what Gods Word says.

 

[3rdAngel]

But the scriptures you're posting are not the only scriptures written.

Yes and we are to live by everyone of them (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16)

I taught them.

Ok so you should know these things. So what is your point?

There's a saying that goes: If you have one clock, you will know exactly what time it is; but if you have several clocks, you can't be sure exactly what time it is. There are people in many faiths and philosophies who have very strong beliefs as you do, but self-centeredness can make a person so highly judgmental and willing to condemn other faiths and philosophies, which is so utterly hypocritical. If believing Jesus as being one's savior is so essential, then what about all the people before Jesus' time or who live in areas of the world who never heard of Jesus? Didn't God care about them?

It is never about self-centeredness or being judgemental or hypocritical and never has been. It is about loving my neighbour as myself because I care enough if I see someone walking in a path that separates them from God and I do not want to see them lost and receive Gods judgements for their sins because they refuse to believe and obey what Gods Word says. It has always been about sharing what the scriptures say. According to these same scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments (see James 2:10-11 comp. 1 John 3:4) and unbelief which is not believing and not obeying what Gods Word says (John 3:36; Romans 14:23). If we continue in known unrepentant sin and do not believe and obey what Gods Word says we will be lost in our sins and unbelief. Therefore sharing scripture to those who are still in their sins and unbelief about loving our fellow man because we do not want to see them perish in their sins and unbelief (Hebrews 10:26-31). According to the scriptures sin is what separates us from God and if we continue in it we will be lost.

 

[3rdAngel]

Can you compress this l-e-n-g-t-h-y post into something shorter? I would like to discuss this issue with you, perhaps point-by-point, but I can't respond to your post in its entirety.

A couple of things I did notice toward the end of your post...

You said, "Romans 7 is in contradiction to scriptures from the same book of Romans and the rest of the bible." All that says to me is that you don't understand what Paul wrote.

And yes, of course we are to live by God's word and to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Because Jesus says something to the Jews its often not relevant to non-Jewish believers. Jesus spoke to people who were not born again or filled with the Spirit, i.e., they were not believers. It is important when reading the Bible to understand to whom it is being addressed, whether spoken or written.

Matthew 13:10-15, "The disciples came to him [Jesus] and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them."

Hi @jimb, I have already responded to your posts section by section giving you a detailed scripture responses proving that you have been taking scripture out of context by providing scripture context to prove this as a help to you in post # 1558 linked; and post # 1559 linked. If you disagree please respond the linked posts here that are in disagreement with you. The last section of your post here is relevant to you because you choose to ignore the detailed scriptures responses to you in the linked posts that prove from scripture why your interpretation of Romans 7 and your teachings of lawlessness is not biblical and is a doctrine of devils according to the scriptures. Now you can choose to close your eyes and ears to the linked posts here or not its up to you. I will leave that between you and God to work through but please remember according to the very words of Jesus in Matthew 12:47-48 ignoring Gods Word does not make them disappear. The words of God we choose to accept or reject become our judge come judgement day.

 

[jimb]

How many times must I explain it? The law, a.k.a, the First Covenant, was given to Moses by God. Abraham lived long before that, so obviously he wasn't bound by it. Why is that difficult to understand?

 

[3rdAngel]

How many times must I explain it? The law, a.k.a, the First Covenant, was given to Moses by God. Abraham lived long before that, so obviously he wasn't bound by it. Why is that difficult to understand?

Your understanding of the covenants is in error and are not biblical. Gods 10 commandments are repeated in both covenants as Gods standard of right and wrong, good and evil, and sin and right doing (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James in James 2:10-11 if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking all of them. You have been given a detailed scripture analysis of everything you have posted in post # 1558 linked; and post # 1559 linked. If you disagree please respond to the linked posts section by section to all the scriptures provided there inclusive of scripture contexts that are in disagreement with you. Look this is for your own benefit you do this Jimb. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear (John 12:47-48)

 

[jimb]

Funny enough if you the English translation of the text rendered laws in Genesis 26:5 is תֹּורָה (tôwrâh | H8451); Derivation: or תֹּרָה; from יָרָה;
Strong's: a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch. During this time Abraham had the spoken words of God and was practicing the laws of atonement for sin. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to believe that God taught Abraham His commandments and laws so that he could understand was sin was. Interestingly the scriptures also show that Gods people has a knowledge of His laws and what sin was prior to Mt Sinai and the Exodus.

Well to make the claim that God had not yet given the commandment to keep the Sabbath again is an assumption not stated in the scriptures. The evidence however leans toward Abraham having access to the spoken Word of God and what God says of Abraham in Genesis 26:5 with Abraham knowing and obeying His torah and commandments.

Serving meat and dairy together at a meal is not the same as the scripture command not to boil and cook the meat in the mothers milk.

This is all sophistry. Having a knowledge of sin is not the same as living under the Old Covenant.

If Abraham obeyed God before the torah was given, that proves nothing. John 1:17 clearly states "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ." Since Abraham lived before Moses, HE WAS NOT UNDER THE LAW.

"The law" is synonymous with "the torah" and Abraham lived prior to the torah, so Abraham wasn't bound by something that didn't exist.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

 

[3rdAngel]

This is all sophistry.

All I am seeing in your posts are empty words and accusations you are unable to prove with scripture while being unwilling to respond to the posts and all the scriptures that are in disagreement with your teachings of lawlessness in post # 1558 linked; and post # 1559 linked. This makes the teachings of Jesus true in John 3 where it is written 19 "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20, For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21, But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God. Is this why you will not respond to all ths scriptures in the linked posts that disagree with your teachings of lawlessness?

Having a knowledge of sin is not the same as living under the Old Covenant.

As posted earlier and proven in the linked posts above, you do not know what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is.

If Abraham obeyed God before the torah was given, that proves nothing.

As posted earlier, the English translation of the text rendered laws in Genesis 26:5 is תֹּורָה (tôwrâh | H8451); Derivation: or תֹּרָה; from יָרָה; Strong's: a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch. During this time Abraham had the spoken words of God and was practicing the laws of atonement for sin and sin offerings. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to believe that God taught Abraham His commandments and laws so that he could understand was sin was. This is evident in God saying that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (torah). Interestingly the scriptures also show that Gods people had a knowledge of His laws and what sin was prior to Mt Sinai and the Exodus.

John 1:17 clearly states "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ."

Which proves what? Without Gods law we have no knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4). In the new covenant the letter of the law is what leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith to walk in the Spirit of the law by faith. This is Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). So if there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is right? How are you going to know you are a sinner in need of Christs salvation from sin? You seek to do away with the law that gives us the knowledge of good and evil, sin and right doing which is Gods standard for Christian living that is our school master leading us to Christ by faith. The bible does not teach lawlessness in the old or new covenants. You can read what the new covenant is here in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Since Abraham lived before Moses, HE WAS NOT UNDER THE LAW.

According to the scriptures in Romans 3:19, we are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law. According to Genesis 26:5 Abraham obeyed Gods law so no he was not under the law standing guilty before God of breaking the law. God says that 5, Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

"The law" is synonymous with "the torah" and Abraham lived prior to the torah, so Abraham wasn't bound by something that didn't exist. What is so difficult to understand about that?

No the scripture says Abraham obeyed the torah. This is also evidenced in Him offering up sin offerings for atonement of sin. Before the written Words of God there was the spoken Word of God. Sorry dear friend Gods Word does not teach lawlessness. That is an unbiblical claim under both covenants and a doctrine of devils. The new covenant teaches us that we do not know what sin is without Gods law and that breaking it is sin in Gods eyes.

 

[jimb]

I see so all empty words and accusations you are unable to prove with scripture right and your unwilling to respond to the posts and all the scriptures that are in disagreement with your teachings of lawlessness in post # 1558 linked; and post # 1559 linked. This makes the teachings of Jesus true in John 3 where it is written 19 "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20, For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21, But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God. Is this why you will not respond to all ths scriptures in the linked posts that disagree with your teachings of lawlessness?

As posted earlier and proven in the liked posts above, you do not know what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is.

As posted earlier, the English translation of the text rendered laws in Genesis 26:5 is תֹּורָה (tôwrâh | H8451); Derivation: or תֹּרָה; from יָרָה; Strong's: a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch. During this time Abraham had the spoken words of God and was practicing the laws of atonement for sin and sin offerings. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to believe that God taught Abraham His commandments and laws so that he could understand was sin was. Interestingly the scriptures also show that Gods people hada knowledge of His laws and what sin was prior to Mt Sinai and the Exodus.

Which proves what? The law leads is to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is right? (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) You seek to do away with the law that gives us the knowledge of good and evil. Sin and right doing. The bible does not teach this.

Sure he was see Genesis 26:5 5, Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

No the scripture says Moses obeyed the torah. This is also evidenced in Him offering up sin offerings for atonement. Before the written Words of God there was the spoken Word of God. Sorry dear friend Gods Word does not teach lawlessness. That is an unbiblical claim under both covenants and a doctrine of devils.

Believe what your personal interpretation of the Bible is, but I am not interested. Saying that "you do not know what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is" proves that you don't know what I know and you clearly don't understand God's Word. And using words like "doctrine of devils" shows who you really are.

I won't discuss anything with someone who just wants to personally attack me and not discuss the subject. You are on "ignore".

 

[3rdAngel]

Believe what your personal interpretation of the Bible is, but I am not interested. Saying that "you do not know what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is" proves that you don't know what I know and you clearly don't understand God's Word. And using words like "doctrine of devils" shows who you really are.

I won't discuss anything with someone who just wants to personally attack me and not discuss the subject. You are on "ignore".

Providing scripture in disagreement with you proving error is not a personal attack on you. It is called telling the truth and should be a blessing to you. Coming to the light and truth of Gods Word is how we know we are following Gods Words or not following what Gods Word says. You were challenged and posted scripture in disagreement with your personal interpretations and teachings of lawlessness and your understandings of the old and new covenants and now you are offended. If you disagree with the scriptures posted to you then respond and show why you disagree? Your response was to not respond and ignore these scriptures that are in disagreement with you and make claims with your words you are unable to prove with scripture to try and justify a false teaching of lawlessness that is not promoted anywhere in the bible. You are deflecting. You are the one unwilling to discuss the scriptures that have been provided to you inclusive of scripture contexts you have disregarded in post # 1558 linked; and post # 1559 linked which I invited you to discuss with me. The invitation is still open. What have you go to lose? If you disagree prove me wrong with scripture. If you cannot then what is your argument you have none. Receive Gods Word and be blessed. As posted earlier in from John 12:47-48 ignoring Gods Word does not make them disappear, they become our judge come judgement day. Its better to find out now we are wrong about something rather than later when it is too late and Jesus says, depart from me you who work iniquity, I never knew you.

Take Care

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well to make the claim that God had not yet given the commandment to keep the Sabbath again is an assumption not stated in the scriptures.

Unless you can give me a verse prior to the manna incident where God specifically instructs ANYONE to refrain from work on the Sabbath, you have lost your case.

If you want to argue a negative, as in "Well, just because such a verse is not there doesn't mean it doesn't happen," You can say the same thing for ANYTHING. Maybe God commanded Noah to stand on his head while making sacrifices! Maybe God commanded Adam to rub his tummy and pat his head on the Sabbath!

Basically, sir, YOU are the one making the positive claim that such a law as keeping the sabbath exists, and so the onus is on YOU to back up your point. I'm simply pointing out that no such sabbath command exists in the text until the manna incident.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I post what is written in the scriptures for all to see. We are in a scripture debate section of the forum. What is your point? You did not make one.

Same point I have BEEN making -- that you INTERPET the text, and then confuse your interpretation with the text, and with God speaking.

Moving on...

 

[Spice]

I agree, the Commandments of God were not presented until Moses. However, a short little segment of Gensis (14:17-24) is often overlooked, but is significant enough to be reemphasized in Hebrews 7. The priest of God Most High, King of Salem (Jerusalem prior to King David), Melchizedek, was with Abraham for guidance and instruction. Think of the unspoken message that Melchizedek blessed Abram AND the King of Sodom not long before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Nothing more is said of Melchizedek, nor any other "priest of God Most High" that Jesus will eventually be compared to.

 

[3rdAngel]

Unless you can give me a verse prior to the manna incident where God specifically instructs ANYONE to refrain from work on the Sabbath, you have lost your case.

GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

God blessed the Sabbath day and made the Sabbath day a holy day of rest for all mankind.....

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the Sabbath:[28], so that the Son of man is LORD OF THE SABBATH (creator).

If you want to argue a negative, as in "Well, just because such a verse is not there doesn't mean it doesn't happen," You can say the same thing for ANYTHING. Maybe God commanded Noah to stand on his head while making sacrifices! Maybe God commanded Adam to rub his tummy and pat his head on the Sabbath!

Not really there are many scriptures in Genesis showing Gods people already knew Torah through the spoken Words of God. You were making the assumption that they did not despite clear evidence in Genesis 26:5 where God said about Abraham "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (torah).

Basically, sir, YOU are the one making the positive claim that such a law as keeping the sabbath exists, and so the onus is on YOU to back up your point. I'm simply pointing out that no such sabbath command exists in the text until the manna incident.

Not really I was just correcting your assumption that Gods people did not know Gods laws prior to Mt Sinai. That is an assumption on your part as already proven in the scriptures in Genesis 26:5 and Gods people carrying out the laws of atonement for sin. All my points are backed up by scripture. You on the other hand just offer your opinion unsupported by scripture. So we will agree to disagree.

 

[3rdAngel]

Same point I have BEEN making -- that you INTERPET the text, and then confuse your interpretation with the text, and with God speaking.

Moving on...

Not really I just provide what the scriptures say. You can choose to believe them or not believe them. Again I will leave your bearing of false witness between you and God to work through.

 

[Tomef]

Hey guys

Just wondering where is the scripture that says Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus?

May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.

No-one is ‘commanded’ to keep Sunday, the sabbath is just an obsession for churches like the one you are presumably part of. Don’t you read your own holy book?

‘Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath’

Could it be any clearer?

That’s just one example, the NT makes it clear that the ‘rules and regulations’ of OT law were ‘nailed to the cross’.