Where is the soul?

[atanu]

well im sure you believe God is a spirit... and you know that Spirits have no physical body, so those scriptures cannot mean God has a physical body.

You are trying to put words into my mouth. Did I say that Soul means a physical body? You are saying that.

Yes. Pegg. God is a spirit -- an IT. But I believe "God before all and God in all". Thus, the IT is also the first Soul that is the witness --- and also the witnessed.


Thanks Pegg and James. This has been useful.

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[james2ko]

My question to you was simple....

There is no direct scripture that specifically states this brain to spirit relationship. Just like there is no scripture that states we have an immortal spirit/soul. I used biblical examples along with deductive reasoning to form a logical premise.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If the spirit in man had consciousness apart from the brain, this would be akin to having an immortal soul.The immortal soul doctrine had its genesis (pun fully intended) way back in the Garden of Eden when satan told Eve, "you shall not surely die".
It was adopted by the Greeks from the Egyptians (see book of the dead) which was later embraced by the Jews and ultimately by mainstream Christianity. Nowhere in the Old or New Testament will you find this idea of an immortal-conscious spirit living "within" humans.
From a Christian perspective, the concept of an immortal soul does not make sense. If man had an immortal conscious spirit, what need would there be for a resurrection? Why bring back to life something that is already living?
For biblical clues on our human spirit and its relationship to the brain,we can look at the recorded example of the first being resurrected to immortality-- Jesus Christ. Scripture plainly indicates He was able to remember details from His physical life.
Another example is in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was resurrected to eternal life at Christ's return in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6) along with Abraham (Luk 16:22). The rich man died and was resurrected to "mortal" life (evidenced by the rich man feeling the heat of the flames) sometime "after" Christ's 1,000 year reign.
This resurrection will involve a joining of the rich man's human spirit, which was stored in heaven after his first death (Psa 146:4; Ecc 9:5; 12:7), along with a record of all his memories (he remembered his brothers--Luk 16:27-28)

Luke 16v22 is part of a parable or illustration meaning Not a real happening.

All on earth always have mortal life. Adam was created with mortal life.
'Everlasting life is mortal life' meaning continued life dependent on other factors such as breathing, sleeping, eating and of course obeying God.

Only those few that rule with Jesus put on immortality. Rev 20v6;5vs9,10.
Immortal means having life within oneself or self-contained life. John 5v26.

So, by the end of the 1000 years 'all will come to life' meaning 'all faithful ones will come to have ETERNAL life' because before the final test there will still be some disobedient ones like Adam and Satan who will not gain everlasting earthly life.

 

[james2ko]

Luke 16v22 is part of a parable or illustration meaning Not a real happening.

An illustration describing a future resurrection.

All on earth always have mortal life. Adam was created with mortal life. 'Everlasting life is mortal life' meaning continued life dependent on other factors such as breathing, sleeping, eating and of course obeying God.

Those much smarter than you and I agree that everlasting life is synonymous with eternal life not mortal life:

NKJV John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

NLT Joh 6:40 For it is My Father's will that all who see His Son and believe in Him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."

Only those few that rule with Jesus put on immortality. Rev 20v6;5vs9,10. Immortal means having life within oneself or self-contained life. John 5v26.

Wow..I actually agree you

So, by the end of the 1000 years 'all will come to life' meaning 'all faithful ones will come to have ETERNAL life'
because before the final test there will still be some disobedient ones like Adam and Satan who will not gain everlasting earthly life.

We've discussed the resurrections in another thread.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....and where is eternal or everlasting life but on earth. Living on earth forever.

...and isn't the 'last day' Christ's millennial-long day of reigning over the earth?

Mortal Adam could have had everlasting life on earth if he remained obedient to God.

Even the angels are created as mortals because they can be destroyed as Satan will be destroyed. -Hebrews 2v14 B; Romans 16v20.

So, according to Scripture, only God, Jesus and the saints are immortal.
The rest either end up with everlasting life or everlasting death [second death].

 

[atanu]

There is no direct scripture that specifically states this brain to spirit relationship.

Thanks. At least we agree.

Just like there is no scripture that states we have an immortal spirit/soul. I used biblical examples along with deductive reasoning to form a logical premise.

We? We are clay only. I have not raised this topic of immoratlity at all.

I just wished to understand the difference between Spirit and Soul and whether God has a Soul or not (from christian perspective)?

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[Pegg]

I just wished to understand the difference between Spirit and Soul and whether God has a Soul or not (from christian perspective)?

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the christian perspective will vary between different denominations

The bible has its version of soul and that is that the soul is the living person...it is the body brought to life "God formed the man from the clay and blew into his nostrils the breath of life and man came to be a living soul"

Adam became a living breathing soul. His body is his soul. His spirit is the lifeforce within that soul.

Other christians may have adopted pagan ideas about immortality and this is why they will vary with their beliefs.

 

[atanu]

the christian perspective will vary between different denominations

The bible has its version of soul and that is that the soul is the living person...it is the body brought to life "God formed the man from the clay and blew into his nostrils the breath of life and man came to be a living soul"

Adam became a living breathing soul. His body is his soul. His spirit is the lifeforce within that soul.

Other christians may have adopted pagan ideas about immortality and this is why they will vary with their beliefs.

Dear Pegg

I like your kindness. I accept that ideas vary across denominations. I was only curious about two points:

1. A person (God) who blows life into clay, has no Soul? As per me that person should be the Soul of all souls.

2. Clay plus inert breath, IMO, cannot make conscious/intelligent beings. Something is missing.

I will be away for 20 days. I will like to see your thought out response after 20 days. Immediate responses are usually devoid of spirit.

Regards and best wishes

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[james2ko]

....and where is eternal or everlasting life but on earth. Living on earth forever.

Everlasting life in an immortal state--yes....Everlasting life in a mortal state--no.

.Mortal Adam could have had everlasting life on earth if he remained obedient to God.

The question is in what form? A mortal physical body is not designed to live forever based on the Second law of thermodynamics.

Even the angels are created as mortals because they can be destroyed as Satan will be destroyed. -Hebrews 2v14 B; Romans 16v20.

In Hebrews 2:14 what is being destroyed is the power of the devil not the devil himself. The NLT offers a better translation more consistent with the Greek:

Heb 2:14 Because God's children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could He die, and only by dying could He break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.​

In Rom 16:20, the operative word is "bruise" not "destroy". The Greek word for bruise "syntribō" has several definitions:

1) break, to break in pieces, shiver2) to tread down
a) to put Satan under foot and (as a conqueror) trample on him
b) to break down, crush
to tear one's body and shatter one's strength

Since satan is composed of spirit, the physical application of syntribō cannot apply. But the shattering of his strength can certainly be applicable. Satan's strength or power will be shattered but, as other scriptures indicate, he himself will not be destroyed. Luke 20:34-36 plainly tell us immortal beings, which includes the resurrected saints as well as angels, cannot die. Rev 20:10 clearly states satan's destiny--torment not destruction. I believed we've debated this before..

So, according to Scripture, only God, Jesus and the saints are immortal. The rest either end up with everlasting life or everlasting death [second death].

Immortality, eternal life and everlasting life are all synonymous terms and only those composed of spirit will possess it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Adam was not immortal or he would have been death proof.
Adam was never offered immortality.
Adam was offered if obedient everlasting life on earth.

Those resurrected to heaven gain immortality [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10]

Those resurrected on earth gain everlasting life as was originally held out to Adam.

Immortals are self contained. Those with eternal life are dependent on outside forces such as having to breathe, eat, sleep, etc.

So even if living forever is being alive forever those in heaven are immortal.-John 5v26
Those on earth gain everlasting life as was originally held out to Adam.

Angels are mortals. Angels can be destroyed. Isn't Satan a sinner?
What is the price all sinners pay? Isn't it death? Rom 6v23
The wicked will be annihilated forever. -Psalm 92v7.

Genesis 3v15 Satan 'bruises' Jesus in the heel.
Jesus died from his wound. Because it was Not a head wound, so to speak, Jesus was resurrected back to life again. Immortal life in the heavenly realm.
Satan on the other hand, receives a death bruise to his head. Jesus bruises or crushes Satan in the head , and thus Satan ends up destroyed in 'second death' .
[Rev 21v8; Jeremiah 51v57B]

 

[Koldo]

An everlasting being can not die. Simple as that, otherwise it wouldn't be everlasting.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God, according to Psalm 90v2, is from everlasting to everlasting.
God had no beginning and will have no end.
God is immortal.

Adam was mortal and was offered everlasting life only 'if' obedient.
So Adam was Not created as an immortal everlasting being.
Angels were not created immortal.

However, God grants immortality to some. -John 5v26.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe that if there is anything that could be considered a soul, it does not live within us, but we live within it.

So it appears that the soul must reside in the brain. However, it does not appear that the brain actually needs a "soul" to function. Indeed, the growing field of neuroscience has identified parts of the brain that are responsible for particular types of cognition, and there is a well-established model (i.e., the firing of interconnected neurons) that explains how such cognition takes place. In fact, such studies have even discovered parts of the brain responsible for moral judgments, and these judgments have been manipulated by such simple techniques as subjecting the relevant brain area to weak magnetic fields.

But recent findings showing that plants have memories, thoughts, and even feelings according to some shows that a brain is not needed. I'm not saying this proves the soul, but it does suggest that awareness of the self comes from something we are not yet aware of.

 

[james2ko]

So even if living forever is being alive forever those in heaven are immortal.-John 5v26. Those on earth gain everlasting life as was originally held out to Adam.Those resurrected to heaven gain immortality [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10]. Those resurrected on earth gain everlasting life as was originally held out to Adam. Immortals are self contained. Adam was not immortal or he would have been death proof. Adam was never offered immortality. Adam was offered if obedient everlasting life on earth. Those resurrected to heaven gain immortality [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10]Those with eternal life are dependent on outside forces such as having to breathe, eat, sleep, etc.

You're simply repeating yourself and not specifically addressing my rebuttal so I'll repeat it again. The bible uses everlasting life, immortality, eternal life synonymously as evidenced by the various translations of John 6:40 see post 184. There is no indication of a distinction.

Angels are mortals. Angels can be destroyed. Isn't Satan a sinner? What is the price all sinners pay? Isn't it death? Rom 6v23 The wicked will be annihilated forever. -Psalm 92v7.

You are taking these verses grossly out of context and ignoring the verses I have posted which undeniably refute this premise. The context of Rom 6:23 and Psa 92:7 is referring to humans not angels. The angels punishment will be much worse than mere death (ceasing of consciousness)---eternal torment (Rev 20:10)

Genesis 3v15 Satan 'bruises' Jesus in the heel. Jesus died from his wound. Because it was Not a head wound, so to speak, Jesus was resurrected back to life again. Immortal life in the heavenly realm. Satan on the other hand, receives a death bruise to his head. Jesus bruises or crushes Satan in the head , and thus Satan ends up destroyed in 'second death' . [Rev 21v8; Jeremiah 51v57B]

Wow you are really stretching that metaphor and reading into it something that isn't there. Inconsequentially, a bruise in the head does not always lead to death. Nearly all scholars agree Satan's bruise was merely figurative--depicting Christ's death and resurrection abolishing the power of Satan which is death (Heb 2:14). Furthermore, the second death implies there has to be a first death which the bible states only applies to mortal humans who are destined to die once (Heb 9:27). There is no evidence in scripture depicting satan or the angels ever dying once so the second death cannot apply.

 

[asketikos]

I can see this question has gone through several topics, i.e., immortality, Bible references, etc., but getting back to the original concept, I think the soul and the body are two different things. The body dies, it ages, it goes bad . . . the soul is eternal, it is connected to god and all things that are eteranl. So where is it? I guess its in that realm where eternity exists. I don't think your soul is a part of the body, or stuck inside the body.

 

[Ben Masada]

Where is the soul? The soul is wherever we are. Why? Because soul is the combination of body with the breath of life. Once the breath of life is out of the body, the soul is gone. It becomes
non-existent. In practical life, here in Israel, when there is an accident or terrorist attack, the first question in the lips of people is: How many nephashote (souls) were in the area? Then, they account for the guffote (dead ones) and the nephashote still alive. Therefore, we are living souls.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Where is the soul? The soul is wherever we are. Why? Because soul is the combination of body with the breath of life. Once the breath of life is out of the body, the soul is gone. It becomes
non-existent. In practical life, here in Israel, when there is an accident or terrorist attack, the first question in the lips of people is: How many nephashote (souls) were in the area? Then, they account for the guffote (dead ones) and the nephashote still alive. Therefore, we are living souls.

Genesis 2v7 and 1st Corinthians 15v45 agrees with your ^above^ post.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I can see this question has gone through several topics, i.e., immortality, Bible references, etc., but getting back to the original concept, I think the soul and the body are two different things. The body dies, it ages, it goes bad . . . the soul is eternal, it is connected to god and all things that are eteranl. So where is it? I guess its in that realm where eternity exists. I don't think your soul is a part of the body, or stuck inside the body.

How can the soul be eternal when according to Scripture the soul can die and the soul can be destroyed according to: Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23;
James 5v20 ?

Good point: soul is not part of the body or stuck inside of the body because according to Genesis [2v7] after Adam received the breath of life Adam came to be a living soul. So at death Adam became a dead or lifeless soul.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You're simply repeating yourself and not specifically addressing my rebuttal so I'll repeat it again. The bible uses everlasting life, immortality, eternal life synonymously as evidenced by the various translations of John 6:40 see post 184. There is no indication of a distinction.
You are taking these verses grossly out of context and ignoring the verses I have posted which undeniably refute this premise. The context of Rom 6:23 and Psa 92:7 is referring to humans not angels. The angels punishment will be much worse than mere death (ceasing of consciousness)---eternal torment (Rev 20:10)
Wow you are really stretching that metaphor and reading into it something that isn't there. Inconsequentially, a bruise in the head does not always lead to death. Nearly all scholars agree Satan's bruise was merely figurative--depicting Christ's death and resurrection abolishing the power of Satan which is death (Heb 2:14). Furthermore, the second death implies there has to be a first death which the bible states only applies to mortal humans who are destined to die once (Heb 9:27). There is no evidence in scripture depicting satan or the angels ever dying once so the second death cannot apply.

John 6v40 uses 'everlasting life'. 1st Cor. 15vs53,54 uses 'immortality'.
Adam was Not offered immortality which means can not die.
Adam was offered everlasting life 'if' obedient.
Disobedience = death.

Of course Rom 6v23,7; Psalm 92v7 is about humans.
However angels are not immortal.
They do not die as we die but can be destroyed in second death.
Aren't angels sinners? Death is the price sinners must pay.

The eternal torment [not torture] of Rev 20v10 is the second death of Rev 21v8. Second death is the death mentioned at Rev 20v14.

'Torment' as used in Scripture is used in the same context of Matthew 18 vs30,34 when Jailers were called tormentors. Again not torture.
So the torment is second death or destruction.

Jesus destroys or breaks up the works of the devil .-1st John 3v8.
and Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2 v14 B.
'destroy HIM the devil'. [Romans 16v20; Gen 3v15]

2nd Thess 1v9 equates punishment with everlasting destruction.
So the punishment of second death is eternal destruction or annihilation.

One does not have to die more than once to experience second death.
Second death stands for destruction like those of Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v15.

Jude verse 12 mentions twice dead or completely dead as in gone forever like a barren dead tree.

Under the Mosaic law didn't the equal or fair punishment fit the crime?
[hand for hand; eye for eye; life for life]
What crime can equal eternal torture?

 

[james2ko]

John 6v40 uses 'everlasting life'. 1st Cor.15vs53,54 uses 'immortality'.Adam was Not offered immortality which means can not die.Adam was offered everlasting life 'if' obedient. Disobedience = death.

1. You just repeated yourself and still did not address my rebuttal..

Of course Rom 6v23,7; Psalm 92v7 is about humans. However angels are not immortal. They do not die as we die but can be destroyed in second death. Aren't angels sinners? Death is the price sinners must pay.

2. You just repeated yourself without addressing my rebuttal.

The eternal torment [not torture] of Rev 20v10 is the second death of Rev 21v8. Second death is the death mentioned at Rev 20v14. 'Torment' as used in Scripture is used in the same context of Matthew 18 vs30,34 when Jailers were called tormentors. Again not torture. So the torment is second death or destruction.

3. Here is Thayer's Lexicon results for "torment" in Revelation 20:10:

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

Here are the results for "tormentors" in Matt 18:34

1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) torment, torture
a) the act of tormenting
b) the state or condition of those tormented

No mention of death, second death or destruction. Torment and torture are synonymous and this clearly proves it does not mean destruction. You are reading something into scripture that is unwarranted.

Jesus destroys or breaks up the works of the devil .-1st John 3v8.and Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2 v14 B. 'destroy HIM the devil'. [Romans 16v20; Gen 3v15]

4. Once again repeating yourself without addressing my rebuttal.

2nd Thess 1v9 equates punishment with everlasting destruction. So the punishment of second death is eternal destruction or annihilation.

5. This is referring to the destruction of fleshly human beings not angels. Notice the definition of the Greek word used for "destruction" in 2 Th1:9

1) ruin, destroy, death
a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

You should really consider incorporating word studies in your study of scripture.

One does not have to die more than once to experience second death. Second death stands for destruction like those of Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v15.

6 Simple logic states in order for there to be a second death there has to be a first. Similarly, scripture mentions a first resurrection (Rev 20:5) implicating there is a second. Not to mention the words "second death" do not appear any where in the two verses you posted.

Jude verse 12 mentions twice dead or completely dead as in gone forever like a barren dead tree.

7. UR once again grossly taking scripture out of context. The context of this passage is about false human teachers not angels.

Under the Mosaic law didn't the equal or fair punishment fit the crime?[hand for hand; eye for eye; life for life]What crime can equal eternal torture?

8. The one the devil and his angels have committed. They were given much more power and ability than us weak, fleshly humans so God will ensure their punishment is greater, based on the principle in Luke 12:48:

"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."
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