Where is the soul?

[atanu]

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish
the spirit is not a conscious entity .... it is the lifeforce in us and that is all it is. When the lifeforce goes out, so does the spirit...it perishes.
spirit in hebrew in this context means 'breath'
think of it like a lit candle. When all the wax melts away, then the fire goes out. The wax is like the soul and the fire is like the spirit. Both perish when the candle burns itself out.

Psalm 104:29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go

Thank you pegg.

OK, 'pneuma' means vital air -- the life force. I agree. So, God breathes in pneuma and Adam becomes a living Soul. Now, what does that mean? Does it mean that consciousness (of being alive) is included in the vital air? Or that the consciousness is latent at any time and just a vibration is needed to manifest it?

I also do not understand how, the Spirit being non-intelligent (as per you) is Holy? Or how there are so many colours of it. Evil Spirit, Holy Spirit, Whiskey Spirit, Sexy Spirit, Teen Spirit. and so on.....

I also do not seem to understand as to how Spirit and Soul both die. Actually, in the cited verse Psalm 104:29 , it seems to me that spirit does not die. But absence of it make people (living souls) die.

Further, if soul and spirit both have an expiry date then what one strives for? Is one different from soul and spirit (from your example: Is one different from the candle and fire?)

...

 

[Pegg]

Thank you pegg.

OK, 'pneuma' means vital air -- the life force. I agree. So, God breathes in pneuma and Adam becomes a living Soul. Now, what does that mean? Does it mean that consciousness (of being alive) is included in the vital air? Or that the consciousness is latent at any time and just a vibration is needed to manifest it?

our consciousness can cease according to scripture, so I cant conclude that it always existed. Its more likely that our consciousness comes from being alive and being alive is due to having all our bodily functions operating... we are fleshly organisms and our consciousness only lives through the life of our flesh... if our brains cease to function, so does our consciousness.

I also do not understand how, the Spirit being non-intelligent (as per you) is Holy? Or how there are so many colours of it. Evil Spirit, Holy Spirit, Whiskey Spirit, Sexy Spirit, Teen Spirit. and so on.....

yeah the key here is to understand that 'spirit' in the bible is used in several different ways. We know spirit is from the hebrew word 'ruach' and greek 'pneuma' and its literal meaning is to blow or breath. For that reason it is used for wind - Exodus "At once Moses stretched his rod out over the land of Egypt, and Jehovah caused an east wind (ruach) to blow upon the land"
There are other scriptures where the ruach/wind is shown to be uncontrollable or unattainable by man—elusive, transitory, in vain...it something that we cannot see and that is why God is called a 'spirit' - he is invisible, transitory, elusive and unattainable for physical beings.

Gods 'holy spirit' is the force he sends out from himself to accomplish his will. It is “holy” because it is from Him and he is pure and incorruptible. However there are evil spirits spoken of and they are invisible or wind-like persons who act in evil ways, therefore they are 'evil spirits'
So in Genesis we see "Gods active force (ruach) was moving two and fro over the surface of the waters" in the time of creation. His 'spirit' is his power which, like the wind, affects the things it touches.

We think of our own spirits sometimes when we are downhearted...we might say i feel low in spirits...or we may be overjoyed and say 'im in good spirits'. perhaps we want something to lift our spirits.... our spirits is a part of us that we cannot see, but its has an affect on how we feel and think.

So it is always something invisible yet we can see and feel its effects...like wind or gravity. God is the same. He is a life form that we cannot see but we see the effects of his power all around us.

I also do not seem to understand as to how Spirit and Soul both die. Actually, in the cited verse Psalm 104:29 , it seems to me that spirit does not die. But absence of it make people (living souls) die.

Further, if soul and spirit both have an expiry date then what one strives for? Is one different from soul and spirit (from your example: Is one different from the candle and fire?)

...

well really the spirit in us, that which animates us, is power from God. If God did not put his power into Adam he would never have come to life. Its the power of God which animates us. He recognizes this power as 'spirit' because its something we cannot physically see, but we can only see the effects of it by our own animation or the animation of others. When something is alive, it has spirit, if it is without spirit it becomes as dead.

So if that spirit/power goes out of a body, then our consciousness ceases because the center of our consciousness is in our brains... remember we are physical beings, we only exist because of our physical body. And evidence for the fact that our spirit is from God is found again in his words:
Ecclesiates 12:7 Then the dust (the body) returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.

Job 27: 3 While my breath is yet whole within me,
And the spirit of God is in my nostrils...

Our spirit is what powers our life...its the force from God which animates us and when we die, that force or power, returns to God because he was its source - not because it lives on - but because energy can never be destroyed, it can be replaced if God chooses to replace it because he is the source of all energy.

 

[atanu]

And evidence for the fact that our spirit is from God is found again in his words:
Ecclesiates 12:7 Then the dust (the body) returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.

Job 27: 3 While my breath is yet whole within me,
And the spirit of God is in my nostrils...

Our spirit is what powers our life...

the spirit is not a conscious entity ....

Thanks Pegg.

Unfortunately, I am not able to understand precisely what Soul and Spirit mean, in christian theology.

Spirit itself is not conscious (you say it above) yet it seems to impart consciousness to bodies made of clay.

Then what the Soul does?

If one is spirit of god plus clay, then what one is?

...

 

[Genuine Realist]

I am a firm believer in souls, but nonetheless, a little rhyme from an amateur poet that raises a question:

When time runs out,
And space wears thin,
What is the soul
Immortal in?

 

[Pegg]

Thanks Pegg.

Unfortunately, I am not able to understand precisely what Soul and Spirit mean, in christian theology.

Spirit itself is not conscious (you say it above) yet it seems to impart consciousness to bodies made of clay.

Then what the Soul does?

If one is spirit of god plus clay, then what one is?

...

what do you think about animals in terms of souls and spirits? Do you think they have eternal souls or spirits?


Whatever your answer maybe, consider these verses from the bible
Here the bible states that animals are living souls
Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 25: “God went on to say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls (Hebrew ne′phesh) . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about

Lev. 24:17, 18: “In case a man strikes any soul [Hebrew, ne′phesh] of mankind fatally, he should be put to death

Both animals and humans are considered souls - nephesh means living creature or person or animal. If it is alive, it is called a soul. So a soul cannot be something separate from the body, it only exists as a living body.


Spirit is different to soul because we can see the soul but we cannot see the spirit. Remember that spirit is 'force in motion'...its invisible to human sight but we can see its effects. So the lifeforce which animates a soul is the spirit....we cant see it, but we can see how it makes the body move about.

Here is another example that might help you understand what im trying to say. If you have a refrigerator can you see the power going into it? No you cant. But you know that power is going into it if the light comes on when you open the door and if the cooling system is working.
So it is with our spirit...if our body is working and our eyes are opening and our ears are hearing and our brain is conscious - we have spirit and this makes us a living soul. If our power is cut, out body ceases to function and our brain looses consciouness and we are no longer a soul, we are now a cadaver.

The soul/clay returns to the dust from where it came.... and the invisible force that powered us, our spirit, returns to God from where it came.

 

[atanu]

Both animals and humans are considered souls - nephesh means living creature or person or animal. If it is alive, it is called a soul. So a soul cannot be something separate from the body, it only exists as a living body.

Spirit is different to soul because we can see the soul but we cannot see the spirit. ---
So it is with our spirit...if our body is working and our eyes are opening and our ears are hearing and our brain is conscious - we have spirit and this makes us a living soul. If our power is cut, out body ceases to function and our brain looses consciouness and we are no longer a soul, we are now a cadaver.

The soul/clay returns to the dust from where it came.... and the invisible force that powered us, our spirit, returns to God from where it came.

So, if I am correctly understanding: It is Spirit of God (pneuma-vital air-breath) that puts life into clay, which now becomes living soul (psyche-individuality-individual consciousness). The living soul disintegrates upon death to clay and spirit, which goes back to God?

Is my understanding correct?

Thank you for your help.

...

 

[Pegg]

So, if I am correctly understanding: It is Spirit of God (pneuma-vital air-breath) that puts life into clay, which now becomes living soul (psyche-individuality-individual consciousness). The living soul disintegrates upon death to clay and spirit, which goes back to God?

Is my understanding correct?

Thank you for your help.

...

Hi atanu,

Yes you have understood it correctly, this is according to the hebrew scriptures.

 

[atanu]

Hi atanu,
Yes you have understood it correctly, this is according to the hebrew scriptures.

Hi Pegg

Thank you very much for your efforts.

The implications are significant. Except for possible differences in clay material, all beings have the same spirit? How the differences in psyche are accounted for?

...

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg

Thank you very much for your efforts.

The implications are significant. Except for possible differences in clay material, all beings have the same spirit? How the differences in psyche are accounted for?

...

if im understanding your question correctly, i would say the differences come from cultures, customs, and probably the environment too. Culture often has its foundation in religion, so whatever a nations religion might be, then that is likely how their psyche will be molded

but we can mold ourselves differently to our custom if we want to...that is the beauty of mankind... they do not have to be tied into one set way...they can change it.

 

[chinu]

Reply No: "150"

Hello!!!, 149 replies passed out, is there anybody who has found "Soul" ?

_/\_
Chinu

 

[atanu]

if im understanding your question correctly, i would say the differences come from cultures, customs, and probably the environment too. Culture often has its foundation in religion, so whatever a nations religion might be, then that is likely how their psyche will be molded

but we can mold ourselves differently to our custom if we want to...that is the beauty of mankind... they do not have to be tied into one set way...they can change it.

Oh no, Pegg

Where does culture come between God's breath and clay? And in same culture (place) one may be a dog, another a cat, another a lizard, and yet another a human?

...

 

[Pegg]

Oh no, Pegg

Where does culture come between God's breath and clay? And in same culture (place) one may be a dog, another a cat, another a lizard, and yet another a human?

...

ah well no i didnt understand your question

Do you mean whats different between the spirit inside animals and spirit inside man?

If thats what you mean, then the answer lies in the fact that the bible says that when God made mankind, he made them different to animals. He put into man attributes or qualities that he himself possesses. Those qualities are Love & Justice for example and these are the qualities that govern how man thinks.

Animals are governed purely by instinct, they do not have free will in the same way that mankind have it. Animals spend their whole life reproducing and that is their function. However, the function of mankind works differently. We can 'choose' what we do with our lives....if we want to reproduce we can but if we dont want to, we dont have to.

Also, man have the ability to perceive spirituality...this is something that animals do not have. Our ability to imagine and create things from our imaginations comes from being made in Gods image...he gave us this gift because he wanted us to use it on the earth - our purpose was to be caretakers of the earth and animals and this purpose was to involve enhancing and taming the earths wild beauty. When we turn a barren land into a garden, this is us working in harmony with our purpose. When we selectively breed plants and animals to take on new features, we are working in harmony with our purpose and using our God given ability to create.

So this is what makes us much different to the animals. We have been endowed with a mind like God while they are purely governed by inbuilt laws/instincts.

 

[atanu]

ah well no i didnt understand your question

Do you mean whats different between the spirit inside animals and spirit inside man?

If thats what you mean, then the answer lies in the fact that the bible says that when God made mankind, he made them different to animals. He put into man attributes or qualities that he himself possesses. Those qualities are Love & Justice for example and these are the qualities that govern how man thinks.

Animals are governed purely by instinct, they do not have free will in the same way that mankind have it. Animals spend their whole life reproducing and that is their function. However, the function of mankind works differently. We can 'choose' what we do with our lives....if we want to reproduce we can but if we dont want to, we dont have to.

Also, man have the ability to perceive spirituality...this is something that animals do not have. Our ability to imagine and create things from our imaginations comes from being made in Gods image...he gave us this gift because he wanted us to use it on the earth - our purpose was to be caretakers of the earth and animals and this purpose was to involve enhancing and taming the earths wild beauty. When we turn a barren land into a garden, this is us working in harmony with our purpose. When we selectively breed plants and animals to take on new features, we are working in harmony with our purpose and using our God given ability to create.

So this is what makes us much different to the animals. We have been endowed with a mind like God while they are purely governed by inbuilt laws/instincts.

Hi Pegg

Thanks and more thanks for being patient.

The above explanation does not explain to me how the same spirit of God blown over clay creates, for example, a lizard on one hand and a beautiful lady on the other. What else is missing?

...

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg

Thanks and more thanks for being patient.

The above explanation does not explain to me how the same spirit of God blown over clay creates, for example, a lizard on one hand and a beautiful lady on the other. What else is missing?

...

ah, you are not separating the 'soul' from the 'spirit'

remember that the soul, the nephesh, is the body. The breath is the 'spirit' inside the body....its what gives life to the body.

God creates the various different souls/bodies...then breaths life into them with the same spirit. But of course he uses natural means to bring life into the world in that it all happens through reproduction...he doesnt sit and create each individual...he uses reproduction to bring the soul into being and during that process his spirit brings them to life.

 

[chinu]

Separating the 'soul' from the 'spirit'

"Soul" is like "Water", "Spirit" is like "Running Water"

_/\_
Chinu

 

[james2ko]

Hi Pegg

Thanks and more thanks for being patient.

The above explanation does not explain to me how the same spirit of God blown over clay creates, for example, a lizard on one hand and a beautiful lady on the other. What else is missing?

...

Sorry to interrupt, if I may--Scripture indicates both man and animals have a spirit:

Ecc 3:21 For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth?​

The difference between the two spirits is the human spirit imparts to us intellect, reason, creative power, self-consciousness and other qualities. The spirit in animal provides them instincts, individual characteristics, and personality.

 

[atanu]

----
So this is what makes us much different to the animals. We have been endowed with a mind like God while they are purely governed by inbuilt laws/instincts.

So, we need to tinker with the following understanding which you had accepted

So, if I am correctly understanding: It is Spirit of God (pneuma-vital air-breath) that puts life into clay, which now becomes living soul (psyche-individuality-individual consciousness). The living soul disintegrates upon death to clay and spirit, which goes back to God?

...

 

[Pegg]

So, we need to tinker with the following understanding which you had accepted
"So, if I am correctly understanding: It is Spirit of God (pneuma-vital air-breath) that puts life into clay, which now becomes living soul (psyche-individuality-individual consciousness). The living soul disintegrates upon death to clay and spirit, which goes back to God? "
...

spirit/breath = force of life...its like the petrol that makes the car run
soul/body = living creature...the vehicle itself with all its parts in working order

im not sure how else i can explain it??? Can you reword your understanding differently?

 

[atanu]

spirit/breath = force of life...its like the petrol that makes the car run
soul/body = living creature...the vehicle itself with all its parts in working order

im not sure how else i can explain it??? Can you reword your understanding differently?

You must be tired by now, but we come back right where we started. If breath of God is one and clay is one then how/why are souls different?

I know that Bible states 'God before all and God in all'. How this integrates with the perceptual fact that vehicles are of different kinds?

...

 

[Mike214]

The body: is the outer physical shell in which the soul and the spirit ( the inner man) dwells.
The soul: (the real person) is the psyche of man consisting of the intellect, the emotions, and the will.
The spirit: is from God, and is the source of man's life: physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Like God's Spirit, man's spirit is "eternal, immortal, and invisible"
Spirit and soul will always be together and the two of them make the eternal inner man.
The soul is the principle of individuality, the seat of contact with the material element of humanity, as well as with the spiritual element. It is thus the mediating organ between the spirit and the body, receiving impressions from without and from within, and transmitting them by word or sign. It is the battleground of our spiritual warfare.

Member of the Manifold Wisdom Church. w...zondervansfall.com