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Where is the soul?

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Doppelganger:

So your problem remains: Classifiers come into use because they signify some experience or abstraction from experience (such as "chair") that is real."
I think we would concur that there is no such thing as a pink unicorn with fluffy blue wings, yet I can construct symbolic language to describe such a thing.
Unless one has an experience of a thing that has a set of attributes to which that symbol would be attached, yes. But that doesn't mean there's "no such thing." Just that we have not experienced a thing to which we have had a use in ascribing that particular set of attributes.

In this sense, then, the "soul" can be thought of as an unrealistic combination of real things (and I gather this is pretty much the way you see it).

Yes. BUT, so is every common noun. The difference is that the "soul" serves only a grammatical function (so does "God" by the way). Put another way the soul (the ego, the mind, the self, "I am", any use of language that presumes the identity of user as distinct from other things) is not observed by associating it with categories of sensations, but by the fact that sensations are being categorized and used - and language presumes a "mind" behind it. Indeed, if recent research into mirror neurons is taken into account, this state of presuming mind/intentionality behind observed patterns may be so hard-wired into human neurology that it can't even be spoken of without creating a strange loop.



Personality is real and life is real. But life after death is not real, and nor is the ability of the personality to persist without a physical body.

"Personality" is a function of grammar. It makes no sense to ask whether it "exists" because the very language you are using necessarily presumes its existence. Granted, superstitious people are in the habit of projecting their "soul" as a thing outside of grammar. But this is just from a lack of introspection.


Strict determinism claims that events are, in principle, perfectly predictable,
No it doesn't. It claims there are no minds/souls that stand apart from Universe and act apart from it. All movement, including the movement of signals between neurons, is the product of all the movements that preceded them. Discreet things only exist in thought, and then, only to the extent that their "existence" is useful.

Spinoza gives a very succinct summary of this idea in his refutation of "free will" in his Ethics:

Men believe themselves to be free because they are conscious of their own actions and are ignorant of the causes by which they are determined. The mind is determined to this or that choice by a cause which is also determined by another cause, and this again by another, and so on ad infinitum. This doctrine teaches us to hate no one, to despise no one, to mock no one, to be angry with no one, and to envy no one.
And indeed, as Spinoza goes on to explain, it is in this very error of not recognizing the role of thought in the forms of things and the purpose for which thought accumulates such forms that leads to superstitions about the "soul" and "God":

Further, as they find in themselves and outside themselves many means which assist them not a little in their search for what is useful, for instance, eyes for seeing, teeth for chewing, herbs and animals for yielding food, the sun for giving light, the sea for breeding fish, etc., they come to look on the whole of nature as a means for obtaining such conveniences. Now as they are aware, that they found these conveniences and did not make them, they think they have cause for believing, that some other being has made them for their use. As they look upon things as means, they cannot believe them to be self-created; but, judging from the means which they are accustomed to prepare for themselves, they are bound to believe in some ruler or rulers of the universe endowed with human freedom, who have arranged and adapted everything for human use.

They are bound to estimate the nature of such rulers (having no information on the subject) in accordance with their own nature, and therefore they assert that the gods ordained everything for the use of man, in order to bind man to themselves and obtain from him the highest honour. Hence also it follows, that everyone thought out for himself, according to his abilities, a different way of worshiping God, so that God might love him more than his fellows, and direct, the whole course of nature for the satisfaction of his blind cupidity and insatiable avarice. Thus the prejudice developed into superstition, and took deep root in the human mind; and for this reason everyone strove most zealously to understand and explain the final causes of things
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
May I request precise and agreed christian definitions of Soul and Spirit.

Thanks

...
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
May I request precise and agreed christian definitions of Soul and Spirit.
Thanks
...

SOUL: Hebrew nephesh and Greek psykhe as used in Scripture show 'soul' to be the person [and animal], or even the life enjoyed as a person or animal .
-Numbers 31v28; Genesis 2v7

SPIRIT: Greek pneuma [which comes from pneo meaning breathe or blow]
Hebrew ruach with same root meaning as in the Greek.
Ruach and pneuma basically meaning: breath.
Living, animated, in motion, active, vital force.

Another Hebrew word: neshamah also means: breath
-Genesis 2v7
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
SOUL: Hebrew nephesh and Greek psykhe as used in Scripture show 'soul' to be the person [and animal], or even the life enjoyed as a person or animal .
-Numbers 31v28; Genesis 2v7

SPIRIT: Greek pneuma [which comes from pneo meaning breathe or blow]
Hebrew ruach with same root meaning as in the Greek.
Ruach and pneuma basically meaning: breath.
Living, animated, in motion, active, vital force.

Another Hebrew word: neshamah also means: breath
-Genesis 2v7
Right. Soul is being - the experience of time through memory. Spirit is the form overlaid upon being.

Soul - "I am."

Spirit - "I am a Christian," "I am an American," "I am a doctor," or "I am a USC Trojan."
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2336838 said:
Right. Soul is being - the experience of time through memory. Spirit is the form overlaid upon being.
Soul - "I am."
Spirit - "I am a Christian," "I am an American," "I am a doctor," or "I am a USC Trojan."

Thank you both URAVIP2ME and doppelgänger

Trying to correlate with Hindu understanding, I find that Spirit is prAna (life force, which is called Truth) and Soul, in this case, is jivatma (individual living soul). The controller of life force (truth) is atma or paramtma or brahman, which is called as satyasa satyam (truth of the truth).

I have a clarification to seek from doppelgänger however. It is said that in Vedanta that Atma, which is one without a second, raises Purusha (Person-Mind) from waters (consciousness) with a sense of "I am". Then it is said that prAna creates all, meaning that even Purusha - the primeval person, is sustained by prAna (Spirit) and purusha (person), desiring to become many, creates the conscious beings separately.

To me it seems that it is Purusha who says "I Am" and further diversifies into "I Am this" and "I am that". And this understanding seems to be contradicting to doppelgänger's explanation.

Thanks again to both of you and warmest regards.

...
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
To me it seems that it is Purusha who says "I Am" and further diversifies into "I Am this" and "I am that". And this understanding seems to be contradicting to doppelgänger's explanation.

Thanks again to both of you and warmest regards.

...
Identity is a social construct, it is a transaction between the ego and social reality. So it's not quite accurate to say that the person-mind adopts the spirit, but rather the social substrate pushes it onto the ego.

For example, a person born in the geographical boundaries of Mexico will, through social conditioning, take upon herself the spirit of being "Mexican." If she were to move to Peru, and renounce her Mexican "citizenship," she would still be her same self (soul - experience continuity through her own memories). Only now she would be "Peruvian" (spirit).

This is also true of religious conversion in which the soul, through any number of transforming social interactions might be enculturated during youth into a spirit of Catholicism, but later find that spirit unreal or not useful and pick up some other social structure as an aspect of the person-mind's identity.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
doppelgänger;2337213 said:
Identity is a social construct, it is a transaction between the ego and social reality. -----

This I agree fully.

Where I am getting stuck is that Spirit is defined as vital force (by URAVIP2ME), which never undergoes any real or even apparent division. This agrees with Hindu understanding, where the Spirit is named as satya (truth) underlying the phenomenal universe. Atma is named as the truth underlying the prAna.

Probably I do not follow the meaning of the definitions or Spirit as Vital Force and Spirit as social constructs are really not same.

...
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
This I agree fully.

Where I am getting stuck is that Spirit is defined as vital force (by URAVIP2ME), which never undergoes any real or even apparent division. This agrees with Hindu understanding, where the Spirit is named as satya (truth) underlying the phenomenal universe. Atma is named as the truth underlying the prAna.

Probably I do not follow the meaning of the definitions or Spirit as Vital Force and Spirit as social constructs are really not same.

...
In the West the term "spirit" is used to express the notion of identifying with something. "The Holy Spirit" comes upon one who has Christian beliefs. "Team spirit" is possessed by someone who strongly supports their sports team. "The Spirit of '76" is the nationalistic spirit of American patriotism.

The symbolism regarding "truth underlying the phenomenal universe" is a utter mess in the West compared to Eastern philosophy. In part because of the ingrained habit of severing religion from philosophy in the West.
 

Maury83

Member
Have you ever heard of the expressions "there isn't a soul in the street"? or "200 souls died that night"?
The soul is not contained ina one specific part of the body. All humans are souls, your person is a soul, your entire body is a soul.

Genesis 2:7 says that God formed the first man from the dust from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul...please note it doen't say that the man WAS GIVEN a soul but he BECAME a soul, a living person.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
doppelgänger;2337231 said:
In the West the term "spirit" is used to express the notion of identifying with something. "The Holy Spirit" comes upon one who has Christian beliefs. "Team spirit" is possessed by someone who strongly supports their sports team. "The Spirit of '76" is the nationalistic spirit of American patriotism.
The symbolism regarding "truth underlying the phenomenal universe" is a utter mess in the West compared to Eastern philosophy. In part because of the ingrained habit of severing religion from philosophy in the West.

Very interesting observation ^above^ in the sense of 'team spirit' because school 'pep rallies' are used to stimulate 'school spirit'.

When we hear of a high-spirited horse we think of a lively or animated horse.
The opposite would be lack of function such as Psalm 143v7 mentioning one's spirit failing. Failing would not be eternal.

Job [33v4 B] mentions it's the breath of the Almighty that gave Job life.
Just like Adam did not come to life until after he received the breath of life.

Job [34vs14,15] mentions God combining the gathering of both man's 'spirit and breath'. Not logical to take earthly breath to heaven, but just to take it away.
We hear the expression: he/she took my breath away.
Not meaning the breath went away somewhere else, but just stopped.
In verse 15 spirit and breath is connected to being part of all flesh returning to dust.

If we use Scripture instead of philosophy one can overcome the deeply embedded fusion of differing belief systems mixed with Scripture that has taken on a new life of its own outside of Scripture teaching.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Very interesting observation ^above^ in the sense of 'team spirit' because school 'pep rallies' are used to stimulate 'school spirit'.

When we hear of a high-spirited horse we think of a lively or animated horse.
The opposite would be lack of function such as Psalm 143v7 mentioning one's spirit failing. Failing would not be eternal.

Job [33v4 B] mentions it's the breath of the Almighty that gave Job life.
Just like Adam did not come to life until after he received the breath of life.

Job [34vs14,15] mentions God combining the gathering of both man's 'spirit and breath'. Not logical to take earthly breath to heaven, but just to take it away.
We hear the expression: he/she took my breath away.
Not meaning the breath went away somewhere else, but just stopped.
In verse 15 spirit and breath is connected to being part of all flesh returning to dust.

If we use Scripture instead of philosophy one can overcome the deeply embedded fusion of differing belief systems mixed with Scripture that has taken on a new life of its own outside of Scripture teaching.

But I think you have missed out the most interesting thing. A bottle of spirit can lift up any other sagging spirit.:D

But what according to you is the scriptural spirit then?

...
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
If we use Scripture instead of philosophy one can overcome the deeply embedded fusion of differing belief systems mixed with Scripture that has taken on a new life of its own outside of Scripture teaching.
No, the psychological, social and superstitious baggage that goes along with "Scripture" makes it far less useful than philosophy for communicating these ideas.

"Scripture" is expected to be something you "believe." "Philosophy" is something you understand and make your own.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
From what is written in this thread itself, it seems that the soul dies but there is no such connotation for the spirit. The following is what I found in Wiki:

  1. In (popular) theological terms, the individual human "spirit" (singular, lowercase) is a deeply situated aspect of the soul[citation needed] subject to "spiritual" growth and change; the very seat of emotion and desire, and the transmitting organ by which humans can contact God. In a rare theological definition it consists of higher consciousness enclosing the soul.[citation needed] "Spirit" forms a central concept in pneumatology (note that pneumatology studies "pneuma" (Greek for "spirit") not "psyche" (Greek for "soul") — as studied in psychology).
  2. Christian Science uses "Spirit" as one of the seven synonyms for God, as in: "Principle; Mind; Soul; Spirit; Life; Truth; Love"[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
...
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hello URA
Above, it seems that spirit and breath are different?
...

Yes, breath and spirit are different and different words are used to express not only breath, spirit but also soul.

Adam came to be a living soul after he received the breath of life. Gen 2v7.
That breath sparked the spirit so to speak.
Kind of like flipping the light switch to on.
The breath energized the spirit or spirit of life.
Flip the light switch off and the energizing force goes out or stops.

The soul dies. [Ezekiel 18vs4,20]
Breath stops at death.
Spirit stops at death.

KJV [King James Translation] at Ecclesiastes 12v7 mentions spirit as 'it'.
and so does Romans 8vs16,26 referring to spirit as 'itself'.

So as breath is an 'it', so is spirit an 'it'. They are different because they serve a different function, but neither is the person.
The soul is the person. Either a living soul or a dead lifeless soul.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
and so does Romans 8vs16,26 referring to spirit as 'itself'.

-The soul is the person. Either a living soul or a dead lifeless soul.

Thank you URA

I understand that Spirit has its own Soul and Breath also has the Soul (Hindu view).
...
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
According to my beliefs, when it comes to the soul words like "where" have no meaning.

(it's a Matrixey sort of thing).
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
From what is written in this thread itself, it seems that the soul dies but there is no such connotation for the spirit. The following is what I found in Wiki:

  1. In (popular) theological terms, the individual human "spirit" (singular, lowercase) is a deeply situated aspect of the soul[citation needed] subject to "spiritual" growth and change; the very seat of emotion and desire, and the transmitting organ by which humans can contact God. In a rare theological definition it consists of higher consciousness enclosing the soul.[citation needed] "Spirit" forms a central concept in pneumatology (note that pneumatology studies "pneuma" (Greek for "spirit") not "psyche" (Greek for "soul") — as studied in psychology).
  2. Christian Science uses "Spirit" as one of the seven synonyms for God, as in: "Principle; Mind; Soul; Spirit; Life; Truth; Love"[2]
Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...


Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish

the spirit is not a conscious entity .... it is the lifeforce in us and that is all it is. When the lifeforce goes out, so does the spirit...it perishes.

spirit in hebrew in this context means 'breath'

think of it like a lit candle. When all the wax melts away, then the fire goes out. The wax is like the soul and the fire is like the spirit. Both perish when the candle burns itself out.

candle-burning.jpg
colour_candle2109.jpg



Psalm 104:29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go
 
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