Where was God during the Las Vegas shooting?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've had these conversations with people before, both when I was an atheist, and now...and I find myself always going back to the same thing...that we are not drones. God isn't this grand puppeteer in the sky, pulling all of our strings. He allows us the freedom to choose, and sometimes, others' freedoms will cause us harm.

I'll let you be the one to tell this guy that the foundation of his newfound faith is wrong, then:

The survivor finished the interview and said: 'I was an agnostic going into the festival but I firmly believe in God now. There's no way all that happened and I made it to still be here alive and talking to you today.'

Las Vegas shooting survivor reveals he has found God | Daily Mail Online

That's not really a problem of God, unless we feel that he shouldn't have created humanity. In our humanness, we have the choice to do good or bad.

This is nonsense, of course.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It applies to anyone of no or little belief

Pascal's Wager doesn't apply to anybody. It's a fallacious argument.

Truth prevails, while myths die out.

• "It's weird, isn't is, that when we're taught about Thor and Odin, it's called Norse mythology, but when it's about Jehovah and Allah, it's called religion. It's like saying. ‘I know that Batman and Superman don't exist, but I have a personal relationship with Spiderman' " - anon

Every theist thinks he has the truth and proclaims his faith-based beliefs as if they were facts.

But there is no truth in faith based thought. Faith is not a virtue, and it cannot possibly be a path to truth if any idea or its polar opposite can be believed equally well by faith alone.

Do you want some truth? The truth is that we may well live in a godless universe, and that if there is a god, it's nothing like the one the Muslims and Christians tell us about. No human being has any knowledge about any god.

I'm saying God wired you to be those good things, which you deny because you are self absorbed in the "I".

I say that evolution probably gave man all of his qualities, which you deny because you want to be the apple of some god's eye.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What would this world be like if He intervened before every tragedy?

It would be better... if God is good and competent.

 

[Skwim]

You said "God created evil".....I just showed you why evil exists as an equal opposite of good......

Yes, I know. And it's a ridiculous, face-palm reason.

Why would there be no equal opposite of good if everything else has one? Simple logic....

Everything else has one what?

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[Jumi]

Absolutely....where do you think the devil came from? Evil existed there too for a time until Michael evicted satan and his hordes and confined them to the earth. Why do you think things are in such chaos today? The devil knows his time is short.

If you're asking me, I don't believe in any devils. If time is short, how short is it and why is he calming down in recent years?

On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time."

So there are residents in a multitude of heavens, that don't have this polarity of good and evil because it was removed thousands of years ago?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

True justice just can't be meted out in this life, because there is no true accountability on earth - this is why the believer has the belief of accountability in the next life and so, we are extra careful not to commit crimes which see us lose in the next life.

The only known accountability for the killer would be while he was alive, and imposed by man. If there is none there, there is no reason to believe that there will be accountability anywhere.

But if you find biblical punishments more just that human punishments, perhaps you would like it if we added prolonged and maximal torture to the sentences.

Do you have a wife? daughter? sister? Imagine she was gang raped and her rapists were caught and jailed, and then set free 3 years later - would you call that justice? No. What happens to the rapists in the next life is Justice, they will be in hell where they will be punished in ways which befit their criminality.

And you think that committing any crime you like and then praying for forgiveness is accountability? Maybe in Islam, but not in Christianity. Christianity offers forgiveness on demand without even apologizing to one's victim or his survivors:

• "Let's say somebody goes around and rapes and murders somebody, and after they're done, they get saved. What's the punishment for them? This is the problem with Christian religion. It establishes unrealistic and irrational and immoral criteria by which to live. And then it creates a loophole so that you don't ever have to be responsible for those actions. Christianity is not a moral system. It is an immoral system. Because it specifically says that there aren't necessarily consequences that you have to pay because of a loophole. And what is the loophole? It has nothing to do with how good you are or how morally you act. It has to do with whether you are willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is an exception by which you no longer have to suffer a penalty for this. The idea that secular morality offers no guarantee that people will ever pay for their crimes and their atrocities is not an argument against secular morality because that is a tenet of Christianity. The idea that the Christian god is just is directly contradicted by the idea that the Christian god is merciful. Perfect justice and any mercy are necessary directly in contradiction, because mercy is a suspension of justice. Do not pretend that your religion is moral and just." - Matt Dillahunty

I also don't consider it justice for a god to sit idly by watching that rape:

• "You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, 'When you're done, I'm going to punish you' .. If I were in a situation where I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That's the difference between me and your God." - Tracie Harris

Sorry, but I reject the entire claim that there is morality, justice, or accountability in any of this.

 

[DavidFirth]

I always ask this question after something bad happens. It makes me mad when something good happens and everyone praises god for the great things he provides. But then something bad happens and god gave us free will. This just means stuff happens. Good and bad... stuff happens. God isn't controlling anything. If he's real, it makes me mad that he can just sit by and watch this stuff and do nothing about it. I struggle with religion. I've been reading a lot of books by Tim Keller and Case for Christ, and a few others. Once in a while, I'll start feeling like maybe there is something. But then something like Las Vegas or the Church shooting that just happened not too far from where I live here in Tennessee happens and then I ask, where was god? Was he just taking the day off? Does he not care? Or does he just not exist?

Where were you when it happened?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God was there doing billions of things, comforting broken hearted, judging the wicked, showing mercy and patience and many more

Sounds like Trump in Puerto Rico, although he threw the victims paper towels and told them to have a good time.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So where exactly should God draw the line?

What would you do with the power to prevent tragedy? Where would you draw the line?

When can He justifiably let death come without people blaming him and asking "Where was He?"

When it's beyond His power to intervene, which is never according to Christian theology.

With omniscience and omnipotence comes omniresponsibility.

What would this world be like if He intervened before every tragedy?

Better.

God isn't controlling anything. And that's how it should be, despite the fact that bad things happen to good people.

This is why so many of us comment that this god is indistinguishable from the nonexistent. In a godless universe, bad things happen to good people. In a godless universe, tragedies occur with no divine intervention.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

God's purpose in allowing evil to rule in this world.

You really think God WANTS evil to rule the world He CREATED as "paradise earth"? Evil rules this world because the people who claim to be His "true worshipers" believe that God just wants them to sit back and WAIT on Him to change things. How do you see the world if all God's "true worshipers" were in positions of authority and controlled the governments?

This is HIS creation getting trashed....these are the lives HE created getting taken away by evil madmen. How do we think he feels?

Yes, how does He feel knowing His "true worshipers" are sitting back and letting it happen, just waiting for God to come and do something?

That's like me starting a company and putting certain people in charge, telling them, I'm going out of town for a while, but I will be back. The company starts to fail because of some unruly people, causing problems and doing things that were not my ways of running the company. The people I put in charge of my company just sit back and let the people do what they want, destroying my company, and saying, he will be back "very soon" to straighten this out. He wouldn't want us to be part of it, so we'll just stay out of it and whatever happens, happens.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

God is not partial. All shall be judged fairly, but make no mistake, be you Christian or not, wickedness will earn eternal sleep in death.

Explain these verses then,

Revelation 20:10 (ESV Strong's) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Can one who is not conscious be tormented? Can one who does not exist be tormented?

 

[zen523]

Here's an interesting take on it
http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...urch-nashville-clergy-help-victims/725288001/

 

[davidor]

Where were you when it happened?

What does that have anything to do with it. Just because I wasn't there and didn't get shot doesn't mean god was looking out for me. It was luck. The others in the crowd that didn't get shot, it is wrong for them to thank god for sparing them. Because the people that took the bullets and died didn't volunteer to take the bullet. If god jumped in front of the bullet and took the bullet for us, I would say that would be a great thing done by a great god. But as we all know, god didn't jump in front of the bullets.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But as we all know, god didn't jump in front of the bullets.

I don't know God didn't jump in front of the bullets. I also don't know that everyone else knows this.

I'm curious how you know that He didn't. How do you know that everyone else knows?

 

[JustWondering]

I always ask this question after something bad happens. It makes me mad when something good happens and everyone praises god for the great things he provides. But then something bad happens and god gave us free will. This just means stuff happens. Good and bad... stuff happens. God isn't controlling anything. If he's real, it makes me mad that he can just sit by and watch this stuff and do nothing about it. I struggle with religion. I've been reading a lot of books by Tim Keller and Case for Christ, and a few others. Once in a while, I'll start feeling like maybe there is something. But then something like Las Vegas or the Church shooting that just happened not too far from where I live here in Tennessee happens and then I ask, where was god? Was he just taking the day off? Does he not care? Or does he just not exist?

Is god a being that exists just to make our lives easier? If a god exists, why should it care about us at all? If a god exists, would it even have any empathy for life on earth?

All the big religions seem to have gods that are concerned about humanity. Is that realistic? Why are there no mainstream religions with apathetic and evil gods? It's almost like religions were made up to make people feel more secure in a chaotic and merciless world.

 

[Katzpur]

It would be better... if God is good and competent.

You're right, that one incident would not have happened. And if you had your way, life would be just lollypops and roses. All I'm going to say is that if there is a God, He is certainly much smarter than you are, Penguin. He knows what He's doing, even if you believe Him to be incompetent. Still, I suspect that once you're able to have a face-to-face talk with Him, you might just get it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're right, that one incident would not have happened. And if you had your way, life would be just lollypops and roses. All I'm going to say is that if there is a God, He is certainly much smarter than you are, Penguin. He knows what He's doing, even if you believe Him to be incompetent.

I don't believe God to be incompetent; I believe him (the Mormon one, at least - I don't hold opinions on every god... or even every god called "God") to be fabricated.

In any case, I think you took the wrong intent from my post: I was saying that a god worth his salt would be capable of intervening in a way that works out for the best.

Actually, with a god worth his salt, the question of God intervening would be moot, since a perfect designer's design wouldn't have the imperfections that would need intervention later.

If we assume that God exists and this world and its contents are an expression of his will, then anything on Earth that goes against God's will is a failure on the part of God.

Still, I suspect that once you're able to have a face-to-face talk with Him, you might just get it.

... and then I'll see that all the suffering in the world really was for the best?

You do charitable work, don't you? If you really think that God is right to let suffering and human misery go unaddressed, why would you feel the need to do something about them?

 

[Grandliseur]

Fine, but where is the distinction from Satan? Or, are you making up the proposition that because the distinction isn't there, god must not create evil?
My take is that god meant what he said: "I . . . create evil."

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Just got back.
On Isaiah 45:7, I think the interpretation one puts on it depends on what one believes God to be. If God is a God of justice, love, and loving kindness as defined, e.g. in Psalms 62:12, (12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth lovingkindness; For thou renderest to every man according to his work.") where God renders evil to the evil, and good to the good ones, you get one kind of God where satan always is interested in evil, while God is interested in justice and paying us back for our evil and our good.

It is therefore most likely that one person's perspective differs from another's and cannot be come to agree. Then, one has to ask others, what kind of god do you think God is?!

 

[Grandliseur]

how does luck (regarding getting a ticket) come into it.

The ticket analogy was meant to demonstrate that those with tickets usually always get to fly while late comers take their chances. In the same manner, being a baptized Christian who lives a life according to (without deliberate serious violations) the edicts -- has an automatic salvation. The ones who do not do this, but claim that they live good lives take their chances in that God may not agree with their assertions of living such good lives and therefore they may perhaps not be saved, not get a seat on the analog plane.

. . .can ensure fairness when good and bad in people ranges in a continuous spectrum.

We are told that the righteous shall automatically enter Paradise, once it is established, and that the unrighteous, those who were unaware of God's desires for mankind but still lived good moral lives will be given the chance to accept this by being entered Paradise to get the choice of living that life or to reject it. The wicked get an automatic eternal death sentence.

Since I am not the judge, there is only the knowledge that God judges fairly. Thus wickedness done deliberately and as a practice surely damns a person, believer or non-believer.

They also have the doctrine of universal salvation while ensuring fairness and justice for all actions of all people through consequential ethics of karma.

I can only tell you that we clearly are told that salvation is only through Christ. That God judges the ones not believers in him or Christ. Personally, I am barely hanging in there and could perhaps be damned if I give up. Thus, I am no better off than many, and you have to study things, make up your own mind on what you will do. All things have consequences, some eternal. Eternal sleep is not that terrible a choice, but life is better, if possible.

 

[Grandliseur]

compatibalism. It acknowledges we have some choice, but also acknowledging the fact that we have far too much of us pre-determined for free will to actually exist.

This line I disagree with. Calling things predetermined, as in God having, the Universe having - set this down as unavoidable, I do not accept. I see this more as random things of the past that affect the person in ways that cannot be changed. I do not know if you have a word for this. But as a car drives down the road at reckless speed, and is not seen by another driver who turns into to the road, much as happened to the tennis star, who then has an accident none of her doing, is where things may catch up to us.

I think the points about a child being born

to parents not of his choosing
who may be rich or poor
who may live in NK, the US, or some other country
etc.​

these things are not predestined to occur, but they are unavoidable for the individual. Total free will does not exist and never has. I do not have wings and willing myself to have it simply is not rational. I am not rich and willing myself to have a fat bank account will not happen because of wishing it. etc. I can still go an take out $100, a $1000, or more as I like. Free will at work.

Of course, pre-determined and predestined are not necessarily the same thing.

many instances in our lives that although we thought we made a choice, and were acting of our own free agency, we really weren't and did nothing more than react in ways that conform to our past experiences and future expectations.

Does this mean that you reject the notion of free will?