Where Was God...

[Etritonakin]

Well, if your saying that in response to the analogy, I think the clear solution would be to end the boys suffering by helping, because that prevents pain, and then he would still get to go to heaven or whatever when he eventually kicked the bucket.

If were talking generally, I think I have a better idea then our god, he seems more then okay with suffering.

It is an inaccurate analogy. It is not actually an analogy -it is one scenario within an extremely complex scenario, and they are not analogous.

If God saved everybody from every accident -and they eventually all went to heaven or whatever -heaven or whatever would not be heaven or whatever -it would be a complete mess like it is here.

Actually -the bible does not say we "go to heaven" -it says the meek shall inherit the earth -and that the universe and earth were formed to be inhabited.

The thief on the cross was told he would be in paradise (not heaven) with Christ the day the thief died. Christ did not even ascend to heaven that day.

Should Christ have saved the thief from execution to live more of this life?

The paradise Christ spoke of will be on this earth -and beyond -later. The thief is still dead and knows no passage of time -yet when he is resurrected it will be to him as the next second of his existence.

We have pain receptors for a very good reason. They help us learn to avoid things which cause pain.

The paradise will be the result of learned lessons -and the dead children will be resurrected to it -and it would not be possible without all that has been.

More correctly, it was always possible -we just didn't do it right the first time -nor could we.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Mankind feels we should have freewill. It was one of the arguments used by Lucifer in heaven on why God wasn't loving. We are told by Jesus that God's will is done in heaven. If you were truly total love how would resolve the question? Would you allow Lucifer to test his hypothesis? We've lived under freewill for 6000 years. Has God proven his point?

 

[Thanda]

I was not exactly asking you per se, it was more in the lines of a response to your post and the questions were for generalized discussion. I know many who have refused to learn. Not many personally, thank goodness but I know of many people who are outright racists. The US is rife with them. They are prominent in the southeast but there are racists all over the place. Do you deny this? Our president is still mocked due to his color.

I'm a black South African and am well aware of the continued existence of racism.

 

[JoStories]

I'm a black South African and am well aware of the continued existence of racism.

I imagine you are. As a NA, I am too but to a lesser degree I think.

 

[Etritonakin]

Well, if your saying that in response to the analogy, I think the clear solution would be to end the boys suffering by helping, because that prevents pain, and then he would still get to go to heaven or whatever when he eventually kicked the bucket.

If were talking generally, I think I have a better idea then our god, he seems more then okay with suffering.

Disregarding for a moment why the child traveled to be in the situation... If you had all power to respond to the situation you described -not just to repair the child's body -what sort of situation would you make for that child, instantaneously?

If we are speaking of the God of the bible, then understanding the overall plan is necessary.

It is not as many think. We do not "go to heaven".
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
1Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Eze 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

When a child dies -they go to that future -instantaneously, from their perspective. They are as asleep until it happens -but it is as if the next second to them.

So why were they not put there to begin with? Because that future required what preceded it.

The child is no less important to God than Daniel -but Daniel was thrown into a furnace and not harmed. Still -he eventually died anyway.
Both will be made alive in the future.

The plan of God -outlined in the bible -includes making all alive in order. That order begins with what are called first fruits -who will be the government under God in the paradise of the future.
Not many of these will have had pleasant lives during this time. They learn how to be good servants to God and others by their trials and suffering.
Also -that government will not be as human governments. It will serve -it will not be served.
Then... all who have ever lived will be made alive in this future -and then they will eventually be made immortal.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

.....and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Considering all that led to the situation you described would also shed some light on the subject.
Rather than helping after the fact, what could have changed in the entire history of man to avoid all such situations?
Why are there accidents? What needs to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future?

 

[God lover]

And yet, racial pride and charismatic leaders are alive and well today, doing much the same thing as Hitler did. So what then becomes the point? Do you deny the racist attitudes toward our president, or Blacks or Hispanics or Muslims? Do you deny the charismatic leaders such as Bin Laden or Hussein or Putin or the leader of North Korea whose name escapes me at the moment? If the lesson of the Holocaust was to point out the problems with racism and so on, why have we not learned? Why would God continue to allow these things? Therein is the problem that paints your version of God as monstrous.

I think the genius of God's plan is that those who commit those brutal crimes actually destroy themselves. They think they gain the world and maybe they do rise to the top for a short lifetime. The failsafe plan is that we all die and at this point become completely reliant on God. He will restore who he wishes and throw out who He wishes.

 

[InChrist]

Don't those two statements contradict themselves? Satan is the cause of the bad stuff, but God is in control? Would that not imply that God controls Satan, and therefore God is responsible for Satan's actions?

I don't think it is a contradiction because I see within God's control/sovereignty He allows freewill choices and actions of created beings, including Satan, therefore Satan is responsible for his own actions and we are responsible for our actions which are either according to God's will or Satan's will.

 

[Neo Deist]

Mankind feels we should have freewill. It was one of the arguments used by Lucifer in heaven on why God wasn't loving. We are told by Jesus that God's will is done in heaven. If you were truly total love how would resolve the question? Would you allow Lucifer to test his hypothesis? We've lived under freewill for 6000 years. Has God proven his point?

Lucifer...so you're saying that Jesus argued against God being loving?

Source - Revelation 22:16

 

[Neo Deist]

I don't think it is a contradiction because I see within God's control/sovereignty He allows freewill choices and actions of created beings, including Satan, therefore Satan is responsible for his own actions and we are responsible for our actions which are either according to God's will or Satan's will.

If God's will is done in heaven, then Satan could not have rebelled of his own free will. Your assumption that Satan has free will and got to make his own choices, is something that is not stated in the Bible.

 

[God lover]

You danced around the question, like you have before in this thread.
God letting the child die because his future on earth wouldn't be that right isn't a viable excuse because god would have the ability to change that child's future.

You need to be much clearer with the intent of your post to make it stand towards the analogy I made.
Why does the fact that eventually someone will be okay justify not helping when they are in trouble?
The argument still stands.

It is your perspective about how to run the universe. We might agree that God's perspective would be different because God would be more intelligent and know why He/She made the universe in the first place.

I really feel that God is all-powerful and very very loving. Suffering seems strange at first. But I am not convinced it was God's plan since the beginning.

I try to explain to my own kids how to avoid getting hurt. They usually don't listen. I stop them sometimes and let them fall sometimes. Falling teaches them a lesson.

We won't figure it out by analyzing it and forming a logical conclusion because we don't have all the facts.

If we want to know God. Give it a try. Pray and listen and try to pay attention to the spirit. Our spirit and God's Spirit. From my experience I would say God is very loving. God's peace and joy and strength are very comforting. This Spirit of God's is very tangible. Get to know God yourself if you haven't already on some level. You are God's child. He totally loves you. It is true. This will be more proof than logic. Logic can be used both ways. Get to know God in your own experience. This is the only place He will ever meet you. It's the perfect place! Intimate and private between you guys.

All best

 

[God lover]

I don't think it is a contradiction because I see within God's control/sovereignty He allows freewill choices and actions of created beings, including Satan, therefore Satan is responsible for his own actions and we are responsible for our actions which are either according to God's will or Satan's will.

What about our own will? Do you think we can have a choice that God doesn't want and the devil doesn't want or isn't even aware of. The devil isn't omnipresent is he?

Just looking for your opinion based on your interpretation of the bible.

 

[InChrist]

If God's will is done in heaven, then Satan could not have rebelled of his own free will. Your assumption that Satan has free will and got to make his own choices, is something that is not stated in the Bible.

I think the Bible does show the rebellious expression of Lucifer's freewill taking place in heaven.

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

 

[InChrist]

What about our own will? Do you think we can have a choice that God doesn't want and the devil doesn't want or isn't even aware of. The devil isn't omnipresent is he?

Just looking for your opinion based on your interpretation of the bible.

I do not think the devil is omnipresent. I do think as human beings made in the image of God (although in a fallen state) we have a will and can make choices which are pleasing to God in response to His Spirit which is not what Satan would like, yet we also can make choices to serve self and Satan which is not God's will.

 

[Neo Deist]

I think the Bible does show the rebellious expression of Lucifer's freewill taking place in heaven.

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

Quoting the KJV, which is the only English translation that erroneously uses Lucifer in that verse, won't win you any debates. It has long been established that the entire chapter of Isaiah 14 has to do with a fallen Babylonian king. It has absolutely nothing to do with Satan. Go read the entire chapter...

 

[God lover]

I do not think the devil is omnipresent. I do think as human beings made in the image of God (although in a fallen state) we have a will and can make choices which are pleasing to God in response to His Spirit which is not what Satan would like, yet we also can make choices to serve self and Satan which is not God's will.

I totally hear you. I beleive Satan does exist.

I want to explore this idea with you because it is something I wonder about. (Although, it's kind of like staring at road kill.) But every once in a while we could study a dead body to learn something I guess...

So that said. If we serve ourselves and it was purely out of our own selfish desires, and there was no fallen spirit present, then would it make sense that we aren't serving God or Satan at that point. Inderectly, Satan would be happy to hear about it, but we weren't actually serving him.

Does that make sense? It is my perspective this far in life. I think I beleive this because it allows us to speak in a way that doesn't balloon the limited traits of that fallen angel named The Devil.

God us so cool, by the way! Love Him, love Him , love Him. Keeping eyes on the skies

 

[`mud]

hey Strat,
Interesting approach...
very likable
'mud

 

[بِسْم الله]

I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?



I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

 

[Etritonakin]

What your saying is just you continuing to dance around the question I posed a bit ago.
Does allowing terrible suffering occur to innocent people justified if they will be alright eventually?

Your bible verses really don't affect the question being asked, you continue to dance around the questions without giving a concrete answer.
Just because eventually the child will eventually be "saved" that still does little to justify the suffering god lets exist.

Now, i'l answer your questions instead of dancing around them.

Rather than helping after the fact, what could have changed in the entire history of man to avoid all such situations?
You need to revise this question, I don't understand what your trying to ask. If you are asking if its worth rewriting history to avoid suffering I think the moral answer would be yes, for sure.
Why are there accidents?
Because humans aren't perfect and your god refuses to step in and help
What needs to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future?
God, but he won't.

Q: Does allowing terrible suffering occur to innocent people justified if they will be alright eventually?
A: YES -because it is a necessary part of the process of making them alright -and the present suffering will become a non-issue.
There will be a point at which will not even be remembered.


Q: What needs to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future?
A: God, but he won't.

That is incorrect.
HE ALREADY HAS -WE JUST DON'T REALIZE IT YET -AND HAVEN'T REALIZED IT YET
WE need to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future.
WE need to change how we create the future.
WE created this future. God allowed it -BECAUSE WE CONTINUALLY REJECTED HIS GUIDANCE AND WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO DO SO.

If God is ultimately responsible, then God is responsible for changing US -AND HE IS CHANGING US -EVEN THOUGH WE RESIST IT -because he is taking full responsibility.

We have a certain resilience in response to mistakes -we heal.
We do not have complete resilience WITHIN US YET -it is not built into our bodies YET -because there is no point to it -YET.
There is much advantage to our TEMPORARY incomplete resilience.

Our reality has complete resilience - That which is you can be deconstructed and reconstructed. In fact, that which is you can be put within a different and better you -a body with complete resilience. Humans are seeking to be able to do this.

The you which will eventually be put within a body with complete resilience IS BEING CONSTRUCTED BY THIS TEMPORARY SITUATION.

There is no point or advantage to putting every person into a perfectly resilient body initially -but you must also understand that we are all part of a perfectly resilient reality.

Effectively..... God has ALREADY made every last dead and living child's eternal future wonderful -BY ALLOWING THIS TEMPORARY SITUATION WHICH DOES INCLUDES HORRIFIC SUFFERING.

The next instant in the existence of every last child that has died will be that wonderful future.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS ADVANTAGE to living this life, I would do everything in my power to save the life of a child -EVEN KNOWING THAT I WOULD BE KEEPING THAT CHILD IN A WORLD WHICH WILL EXPERIENCE MORE HORRIFIC SUFFERING THAN IT EVER HAS THUS FAR.

WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO BRING A CHILD INTO THIS WORLD -AND WHY WOULD YOU WORK TO KEEP THEM IN IT?
IS THERE SOME ADVANTAGE? IS THERE SOME HOPE? IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF AN AWESOME FUTURE?

Will not that child live on to learn to create wonderful futures and avoid past mistakes -like creating situations which cause accidents?

I will address the specific issue of horrific suffering later.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:

 

[viole]

Q: Does allowing terrible suffering occur to innocent people justified if they will be alright eventually?
A: YES -because it is a necessary part of the process of making them alright -and the present suffering will become a non-issue.
There will be a point at which will not even be remembered.


Q: What needs to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future?
A: God, but he won't.

That is incorrect.
HE ALREADY HAS -WE JUST DON'T REALIZE IT YET -AND HAVEN'T REALIZED IT YET
WE need to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future.
WE need to change how we create the future.
WE created this future. God allowed it -BECAUSE WE CONTINUALLY REJECTED HIS GUIDANCE AND WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO DO SO.

If God is ultimately responsible, then God is responsible for changing US -AND HE IS CHANGING US -EVEN THOUGH WE RESIST IT -because he is taking full responsibility.

We have a certain resilience in response to mistakes -we heal.
We do not have complete resilience WITHIN US YET -it is not built into our bodies YET -because there is no point to it -YET.
There is much advantage to our TEMPORARY incomplete resilience.

Our reality has complete resilience - That which is you can be deconstructed and reconstructed. In fact, that which is you can be put within a different and better you -a body with complete resilience. Humans are seeking to be able to do this.

The you which will eventually be put within a body with complete resilience IS BEING CONSTRUCTED BY THIS TEMPORARY SITUATION.

There is no point or advantage to putting every person into a perfectly resilient body initially -but you must also understand that we are all part of a perfectly resilient reality.

Effectively..... God has ALREADY made every last dead and living child's eternal future wonderful -BY ALLOWING THIS TEMPORARY SITUATION WHICH DOES INCLUDES HORRIFIC SUFFERING.

The next instant in the existence of every last child that has died will be that wonderful future.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS ADVANTAGE to living this life, I would do everything in my power to save the life of a child -EVEN KNOWING THAT I WOULD BE KEEPING THAT CHILD IN A WORLD WHICH WILL EXPERIENCE MORE HORRIFIC SUFFERING THAN IT EVER HAS THUS FAR.

WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO BRING A CHILD INTO THIS WORLD -AND WHY WOULD YOU WORK TO KEEP THEM IN IT?
IS THERE SOME ADVANTAGE? IS THERE SOME HOPE? IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF AN AWESOME FUTURE?

Will not that child live on to learn to create wonderful futures and avoid past mistakes -like creating situations which cause accidents?

I will address the specific issue of horrific suffering later.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:

You seem to indicate that terrible things like the holocaust will eventually be forgotten.

Question: will the Jews (not believing in Jesus) who got burned in the holocaust go to heaven, or will there be an eternal follow up?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Etritonakin]

You seem to indicate that terrible things like the holocaust will eventually be forgotten.

Question: will the Jews (not believing in Jesus) who got burned in the holocaust go to heaven, or will there be an eternal follow up?

Ciao

- viole

The Nazis are and were the descendants of the ruling/warring class of the Assyrians -they moved from Nineveh to Harran -Harran to Germany -then known as the Chatti.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Deu 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
Deu 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
Deu 28:50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.