Where was God...

[ACEofALLaces]

In other words, God had better set things up the way you want or God cannot exist.

Why would you even SAY something as obtuse as that? I have no aspirations of BEING God......I just do not accept God as being the omni-everything, inerrant, can do no wrong, God that YOU believe in.

IF you understood how it is set up it would make sense, but you'd have to do some reading. Listening to me trying to explain it is probably only making you more confused.

Beings that God, for all practical purposes is unknowable and ineffable, there is absolutely NOTHING that you can say, or any other human or "half-human' individual could say, which would cause me to be accept what THEY say about God.

You STILL might not like the way God set it up if you understood, but then at least you would understand.

That's the second time that you are made reference to "the way that God set it up". You DO have some pretty crazy notions about God, I'll give you that.

Sure, I would like to know more about God than virtually nothing...but it has to come from a source which is not and HAS not been tainted by some Earthly religion, and then colorized by someones religious beliefs.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I have never been into "acceptable" and I was never interested in religion, even after I became a Baha'i at age 17. I was not raised in a religious home so there were no Bibles and I was never curious about religion later. I became a Baha'i not because of God, but because I liked the idealistic principles. I still do not like organized religion, but I believe in Baha'u'llah.

Neither was I...and it wasn't until I kept coming in contact with those whose entire existence seems to be knocking on peoples doors and attempting to sell them something that they don't particularly want nor need, although half of the time, they attempt to convince me that what they are 'selling' IS something I need.....that I finally became curious enough to look into it.
For reasons only YOU know, you succumbed to it....while I did not. The only difference there, is that I KNOW why I did not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would you even SAY something as obtuse as that? I have no aspirations of BEING God......I just do not accept God as being the omni-everything, inerrant, can do no wrong, God that YOU believe in.

Fine by me. You can believe in any God you want to believe in, or in no God at all.

Beings that God, for all practical purposes is unknowable and ineffable, there is absolutely NOTHING that you can say, or any other human or "half-human' individual could say, which would cause me to be accept what THEY say about God.

Apparently you have made up your mind and so have I... If I am going to believe in a God it will be the God Baha'u'llah revealed because that makes the most sense to me. That God is unknowable and ineffable even though we know a few attributes He has.

That's the second time that you are made reference to "the way that God set it up". You DO have some pretty crazy notions about God, I'll give you that.

I think they are pretty cool myself.

Sure, I would like to know more about God than virtually nothing...but it has to come from a source which is not and HAS not been tainted by some Earthly religion, and then colorized by someones religious beliefs.

Unfortunately for those who require that, there is no such source because that is not the way God set it up. God set it up so there would be Messengers and religions they establish.

 

[Trailblazer]

Neither was I...and it wasn't until I kept coming in contact with those whose entire existence seems to be knocking on peoples doors and attempting to sell them something that they don't particularly want nor need, although half of the time, they attempt to convince me that what they are 'selling' IS something I need.....that I finally became curious enough to look into it.
For reasons only YOU know, you succumbed to it....while I did not. The only difference there, is that I KNOW why I did not.

I did not succumb to anyone knocking on my door, I just stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith by accident and fell in love with it... After that, I fell out of love for a while for personal reasons, but now we are going steady again, with fits and starts. Most of my problems are because I get mad at God but I know He understands because He usually responds when I get really really mad...

And now I bid you good night, I have to eat dinner and go to bed because 5 am comes really early...

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I understand, I really do, given what I just said about religion.... I never took God seriously until 2013, but I was a Baha'i 42 years before that... I never really read Gleanings until 2014 and that is when the Lights went on...

After having read that, I am left with the distinct impression that somewhere along the way, you felt, or experienced some sort of need to take the path that you took.
And the basic reason I say that, is because not everyone DOES take that, or some similar, path.
Many people believe there is "something" out there......many of them go so far as to call it GOD. Not all, or even very many, from what I can tell, actually ACT upon that which they believe, but attending some church, or becoming affiliated with some religious organization.

What you are saying about ineffable and incomprehensible to finite human beings is mostly how you will see God described in Gleanings, only it goes into some more detail about God and Messengers of God and what they are up to, how they work together to get the job done..

When I say that God is ineffable, it is because it is what I firmly believe.....such an entity that can even be CONSIDERED as God, simply by virtue of WHAT is thought of as what a God should, or could be......dictates that this God CANNOT be something which any of us can truly and honestly "understand".
The CONCEPT, yes.....the REALITY, never. I have found so much of what some people believe as being utterly astounding and way beyond anything I have ever imagined even possible. But they believe it...and DEFEND it, to the HILT. And of COURSE, they are right...while most everybody who believes differently than them, is wrong.
ALL of this about and over a God which is beyond human comprehension. I do at times find myself chuckling under my breath at some of the crazier things that some believers come up with. Then again, most of them think I am the crazy one for NOT believing.
Sorry for this being so long...I usually attempt to break them up. It's getting late and I am getting tired. Better find the "kill switch" on this computer and hope the sun comes up tomorrow.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Unfortunately for those who require that, there is no such source because that is not the way God set it up. God set it up so there would be Messengers and religions they establish.

I am truly sorry, but I just cannot accept that.

If God is all the things that believers SAY God is, I do not think they stop to realize just how demeaning it is to God to declare that the way God "set things up"...just HAPPENS to fall in line with what some people have come to believe.

If God really IS the "way", then only God KNOWS the way....not some one who fancies themselves as believing that they somehow KNOW what an UNKNOWABLE God knows. I cannot and will not accept that. No offense intended.

You SEEM to have allowed yourself to become "conditioned" by what you have read and what you have been told, by what likely have been well intentioned, albeit "conditioned" themselves, people.

 

[chinu]

I am astounded at some of the completely irrational responses I have been getting. I realize that my question may NOT have a rational answer....but to attempt to answer it with something equally irrational, is beyond reason, IMHO, of course.

 

[MJFlores]

An awful lot of people do try though, don't they?

I happen to be a fan of Carl Sagan...but that little fugue-like chant, was pretty much a waste of time.
So we humans cannot comprehend the conception of 'eternity'....other than that, what was your point, as it blew right over my head, or possible right through my ears.

Sure, people could try to explain things.
We can either call it science and guesswork
Let us face it, we are limited in both wisdom and time.
That is why God is God.

 

[atanu]

I think most theists believe God exists outside of space and time, so he doesn't need to create a place for himself to exist. However, I question whether the phrase "exists outside of space and time" is logically contradictory or not. It seems as though existence is contingent upon space and/or time.

You are correct and incorrect. To exist, is to be in space-time. Yes, agreed.

But, in deep sleep do you exist or not?

 

[Trailblazer]

After having read that, I am left with the distinct impression that somewhere along the way, you felt, or experienced some sort of need to take the path that you took.
And the basic reason I say that, is because not everyone DOES take that, or some similar, path.
Many people believe there is "something" out there......many of them go so far as to call it GOD. Not all, or even very many, from what I can tell, actually ACT upon that which they believe, but attending some church, or becoming affiliated with some religious organization.

You hit the nail on the head again... You are pretty good at that... True, most people probably believe there is something, and they normally call it God, but most people do not DO much with that belief; instead, they live for the material world and everything they can squeeze out of it. There are of course exceptions, and I like to think that the religious folks who spend a lot of times posting on these forums have more dedication than the average believer. Take that ‘other’ forum we post on that is mostly Christians, I think they are dedicated and they live their beliefs. I might not agree with their beliefs, but I admire their dedication and how they try to live the life Jesus taught.

When I say that God is ineffable, it is because it is what I firmly believe.....such an entity that can even be CONSIDERED as God, simply by virtue of WHAT is thought of as what a God should, or could be......dictates that this God CANNOT be something which any of us can truly and honestly "understand".
The CONCEPT, yes.....the REALITY, never. I have found so much of what some people believe as being utterly astounding and way beyond anything I have ever imagined even possible. But they believe it...and DEFEND it, to the HILT. And of COURSE, they are right...while most everybody who believes differently than them, is wrong.

I believe God is exactly as you depicted Him, not anything we can ever even imagine, and Baha’u’llah says that throughout Gleanings... Here is one of my favorite passages; please note the last sentence.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166​

So there you are, at the acme of human understanding, so you are WAY ahead of the game, and you did not even need a religion to tell you that.

ALL of this about and over a God which is beyond human comprehension. I do at times find myself chuckling under my breath at some of the crazier things that some believers come up with. Then again, most of them think I am the crazy one for NOT believing.
Sorry for this being so long...I usually attempt to break them up. It's getting late and I am getting tired. Better find the "kill switch" on this computer and hope the sun comes up tomorrow.

No, you DO believe, but you just do not believe you can KNOW all the stuff most religious believers claim to know about the ineffable God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am truly sorry, but I just cannot accept that.

You certainly do not have to apologize to me, I have been hearing the SAME thing from all the atheists I post to for over five years, so it is nothing new.

If God is all the things that believers SAY God is, I do not think they stop to realize just how demeaning it is to God to declare that the way God "set things up"...just HAPPENS to fall in line with what some people have come to believe.

Why wouldn’t it fall in line, given MOST people just accept that religions that are established by God’s Messengers are the WAY we can know about God? The hundred billion dollar question is WHY some people just cannot accept this is God’s Method?

If God really IS the "way", then only God KNOWS the way....not some one who fancies themselves as believing that they somehow KNOW what an UNKNOWABLE God knows. I cannot and will not accept that. No offense intended.

I take no offense because I know it is not directed at me.

I never said I KNOW what an unknowable God knows. The entire purpose of Messengers of God is to reveal the teachings and laws we need to live a moral life, so that is ALL I know, God’s Will for me, kind of like a roadmap to good living.

The only way to know ANYTHING about God is from what Messengers reveal. This is drop dead logical, so I cannot for the life of me figure out what a numbered few people in the world cannot accept it. God,being ineffable, needs a mediator to receive and translate what God communicates into something humans can understand, so God chooses certain individuals who have a dual nature, human and divine, to receive His communication.... It is really as simple as that.

You SEEM to have allowed yourself to become "conditioned" by what you have read and what you have been told, by what likely have been well intentioned, albeit "conditioned" themselves, people.

I was not conditioned but rather I used my common sense, just like most people in the world who believe in God. What reason do you have to think ALL religious people are wrong and only a few people are right?

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone in the world would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of the Messengers/Prophets/Holy men.We know that because 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of founder, what I refer to as a Messenger. So obviously, using Messengers is a successful method of communication for God to use to garner belief.

Only about 7% of the world population are atheists, which means that about 9% of people are like you; they believe in God but adhere to no religion. I see no problem with that, except that you cannot know God’s Will for you without religious scriptures, so you just have to wing it. That might work out okay or not, but logically speaking, it makes more sense to know what God wants of you, if there is a way to know that. Just believing in God really does not have much value because beliefs do not make anyone into a good person.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

The only way to know ANYTHING about God is from what Messengers reveal. This is drop dead logical,

It may well be "logical" for you, as you are seeing it through Bahai-tinted glasses.

so, I cannot for the life of me figure out what a numbered few people in the world cannot accept it.

Did you ever stop to consider that it just MIGHT be that those "numbered few" are NOT "sheeple" and actually DO see what is going on?

God,being ineffable, needs a mediator to receive and translate what God communicates into something humans can understand, so God chooses certain individuals who have a dual nature, human and divine, to receive His communication

Now there is a perfect example of how your Bahai-tinted glasses, manage to distort something, which is actually quite simple.
There is absolutely NO reason why a God is in need of a "mediator" simply because God is ineffable. IOW, humans are incapable of comprehending God from OUR limited perception.....however, God is NOT limited and COULD communicate with each and every human being, singularly, or as a group. There is absolutely NOTHING preventing such a God from doing that.

It is those Bahai-tinted glasses that you are wearing that prevent you from seeing that. Bahai says humans NEED a mediator, because without one, nobody would be able to "understand" what God is saying.......which is NOT necessarily true, for one looking at this WITHOUT those Bahai-tinted glasses.

Every time you attempt to explain the Bahai way, what you really end up doing is demeaning God and making God out to be something significantly less than what we have been led to believe about God.

.... It is really as simple as that.

Take those Bahai-tinted glasses off for a moment and see the difference......it may well BE "as simple as that", but NOT the way it appears through those glasses.
IOW, there IS a better way....you just refuse to look at it, or if you do look at it, you reject it outright, just before putting your Bahai-tinted glasses back on again.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I believe God is exactly as you depicted Him, not anything we can ever even imagine, and Baha’u’llah says that throughout Gleanings... Here is one of my favorite passages; please note the last sentence.

I am never left in any greater sense of astonishment, when you go and quote something that Baha’u’llah says, as if there is some really special meaning to it.....when in reality, Baha’u’llah didn't say anything that anyone with a lick of common sense wouldn't have thought of themselves.
It's gotta be those 'Bahai-tinted glasses" again, isn't it?

 

[Trailblazer]

“The only way to know ANYTHING about God is from what Messengers reveal. This is drop dead logical,”

It may well be "logical" for you, as you are seeing it through Bahai-tinted glasses.

It is perfectly logical, UNLESS you know of some other way.

“so, I cannot for the life of me figure out what a numbered few people in the world cannot accept it.”

Did you ever stop to consider that it just MIGHT be that those "numbered few" are NOT "sheeple" and actually DO see what is going on?

You cannot answer it with a logical answer can you? To call people sheep is deflection, not an answer. WHAT is going on? You and your ilk do not like religion and the IDEA of Messengers of God, that is what is going on, but you have NO logical reason NOT to like them, so instead you cast aspersions at me and my religious beliefs. Sorry to be so hard on you, but you know what they say about tough love.

“God, being ineffable, needs a mediator to receive and translate what God communicates into something humans can understand, so God chooses certain individuals who have a dual nature, human and divine, to receive His communication.”

Now there is a perfect example of how your Bahai-tinted glasses, manage to distort something, which is actually quite simple.
There is absolutely NO reason why a God is in need of a "mediator" simply because God is ineffable. IOW, humans are incapable of comprehending God from OUR limited perception.....however, God is NOT limited and COULD communicate with each and every human being, singularly, or as a group. There is absolutely NOTHING preventing such a God from doing that.

God is preventing Himself from doing that, because He does not WANT TO….. and God only does what God WANTS TO DO.

God is NEVER going to communicate directly to everyone because it is unnecessary and nobody could understand an ineffable God except a Messenger so it would fall on deaf ears…But besides that fact, God does not want to make belief that easy, God wants our faith. I guess you had better go back and read your Bible. God separates the wheat from the chaff… Those who have faith are the wheat and the chaff will fall by the wayside in their own arrogance, expecting an Almighty God to hop to and deliver their order… I am sorry you cannot understand how arrogant that is…
Why not just go back to BUE and join Dotsman?

It is those Bahai-tinted glasses that you are wearing that prevent you from seeing that. Bahai says humans NEED a mediator, because without one, nobody would be able to "understand" what God is saying.......which is NOT necessarily true, for one looking at this WITHOUT those Bahai-tinted glasses.

What evidence do you have that it isn’t true? If it was true, then why doesn’t God communicate directly to humans? You got an answer to that? But the most important thing is that you can give me no logical reason why God would not use Messengers; you just don’t LIKE the idea, but God is not going to change His time honored method of communication because you and a few atheists don’t like it. An Omnipotent God does not take orders from humans.

This has NOTHING to do with Baha’i glasses, all the Abrahamic religious believers have Messengers who established their religions, why pick on Baha’is?

Every time you attempt to explain the Bahai way, what you really end up doing is demeaning God and making God out to be something significantly less than what we have been led to believe about God.

What is demeaning about God using Messengers to communicate? Answer the question, and I want a logical answer.

“.... It is really as simple as that.”

Take those Bahai-tinted glasses off for a moment and see the difference......it may well BE "as simple as that", but NOT the way it appears through those glasses.
IOW, there IS a better way....you just refuse to look at it, or if you do look at it, you reject it outright, just before putting your Bahai-tinted glasses back on again.

You are completely ILLOGICAL. If there was a better way, an All-Knowing and All-Wise God would have used that way, and we all know he hasn’t….
What you are saying is that you know more than God about how to communicate, which is logically impossible since you cannot be MORE than All-Knowing.

YOU do not MAKE the rules, God does. I suggest you get over it because you cannot MAKE an Omnipotent God do what you think He should.
And if you do not LIKE what God does, take it up with God, not with me... I do not make the rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am never left in any greater sense of astonishment, when you go and quote something that Baha’u’llah says, as if there is some really special meaning to it.....when in reality, Baha’u’llah didn't say anything that anyone with a lick of common sense wouldn't have thought of themselves.

Except that hardly anyone else but YOU has thought of it.
You happen to be the exception.

It's gotta be those 'Bahai-tinted glasses" again, isn't it?

No, my glasses are not tinted, they are clear.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

It is perfectly logical, UNLESS you know of some other way.

In response to:
Trailblazer said...“The only way to know ANYTHING about God is from what Messengers reveal. This is drop dead logical,”

ACEofALLaces said..."It may well be "logical" for you, as you are seeing it through Bahai-tinted glasses".
Well, actually there IS another way.....you've been presented with it before many times, and each time you reject it, because it does NOT coincide with your beliefs....and NOT because it is not possible, rational or even logical....YOU simply do not LIKE it.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

“so, I cannot for the life of me figure out what a numbered few people in the world cannot accept it.”

Did you ever stop to consider that it just MIGHT be that those "numbered few" are NOT "sheeple" and actually DO see what is going on?

You cannot answer it with a logical answer can you? To call people sheep is deflection, not an answer. WHAT is going on?

In my opinion, those who follow some self-proclaimed 'spokesperson for God', ARE nothing but "sheep"....THAT is what's going on.

You and your ilk do not like religion and the IDEA of Messengers of God, that is what is going on,

Gee whiz, you really ARE a 'smart roving reporter', to have picked up on that so easily.
Actually, you are correct, I have come to not being very fond of ANY religion, not just yours.....but it IS your idea of there being a NECESSITY for these so-called "messengers", that borders on being downright ludicrous.

you have NO logical reason NOT to like them.

I actually have plenty of GOOD reasons to not liking you idea of "messengers".....not necessarily the biblical notion of there being "prophets", just YOUR idea of them, and ESPECIALLY your Bahaullah, as being some actual "messenger" of God.

so instead you cast aspersions at me and my religious beliefs.

You simply cannot help yourself in what you believe, and I do not hold that against you as an individual. Your religion, OTOH, is not some super-duper special religion that has been "revealed" to someone who just happened to claim to have gotten it from God.

It is, in reality, a revised and reworked version of Islam... which IS perfectly understandable since some the chief proponents of your religion WERE all Muslims.

You like to say that is no different than how Christianity is a revised and reworked version of Judaism, according to your now, well known, "apologetic"........

In saying that, you actually DO shoot yourself in your own foot, in that Bahai IS very similar to Islam, and it is readily apparent as to Bahai, having its roots in Islam.

But DON'T be taking it as a slam specifically against Bahai, as I am opposed to ANY religion nowadays, as essentially being nothing more than shams...designed to either play upon some unsuspecting persons "fears", or their "emotional needs", or BOTH.

One doesn't NEED any kind of "religion" in order to believe in God......mainly because, as far as I have been able to ascertain, God is not affiliated with any particular "religion" EITHER.

Sorry to be so hard on you, but you know what they say about tough love.

Actually, no I do NOT know what they say about "tough love".....anyway, I do not feel that you are being NEAR as hard on me, and I am being on YOU.
You are compassionate about what YOU believe, just as I am equally AS compassionate about NOT believing what you believe.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

“God, being ineffable, needs a mediator to receive and translate what God communicates into something humans can understand, so God chooses certain individuals who have a dual nature, human and divine, to receive His communication.”

There is absolutely NO reason why a God is in need of a "mediator" simply because God is ineffable. IOW, humans are incapable of comprehending God from OUR limited perception.....however, God is NOT limited and COULD communicate with each and every human being, singularly, or as a group. There is absolutely NOTHING preventing such a God from doing that.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455] "God is preventing Himself from doing that, because He does not WANT TO….. and God only does what God WANTS TO DO. [/QUOTE]
That's classic! God is perfectly CAPABLE of communicating with people, one on one, but has chosen NOT to; I guess in order to 'accommodate' your notion of , there needing to be a "messenger" to do that FOR God.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]God is NEVER going to communicate directly to everyone because it is unnecessary and nobody could understand an ineffable God except a Messenger so it would fall on deaf ears…[/QUOTE]
And why IS that?.....is God speaking in some kind of foreign language that only GOD knows, and we need a "messenger" to TRANSLATE that to us?
Do you have ANY idea just how SILLY that sounds?

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]But besides that fact, God does not want to make belief that easy, God wants our faith.[/QUOTE]
Ahhhh yes, the FAITH card comes out now. That, besides God apparently being a 'butt' about this matter of people believing in (Him). "Let's make it tough for these silly Humans to believe, just for the "hell" (pun intended) of it...buwahahahaha <evil God laugh>

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]I guess you had better go back and read your Bible.[/QUOTE]
No thanks, once was enough for me, reading that crazy book.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]God separates the wheat from the chaff… Those who have faith are the wheat and the chaff will fall by the wayside in their own arrogance, expecting an Almighty God to hop to and deliver their order… I am sorry you cannot understand how arrogant that is…[/QUOTE]
I might not 'understand' how arrogant it is....but I do know how ignorant it is to be believing such nonsense about this otherwise INEFFABLE God.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]Why not just go back to BUE and join Dotsman?[/QUOTE]
And do what? Mr Dotsman seems to be quite capable of handling himself...he surely is not in need of anything I might have to offer.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]all the Abrahamic religious believers have Messengers who established their religions, why pick on Baha’is?[/QUOTE]
Bahais say humans NEED a mediator, because without one, nobody would be able to "understand" what God is saying.......which is NOT necessarily true,

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]What evidence do you have that it isn’t true? If it was true, then why doesn’t God communicate directly to humans? You got an answer to that?[/QUOTE]
There are a myriad of things that this God doesn't "do", which I have no answers for. God, in MY playbook, is ineffable.
However to respond to your question.....one cannot go very far without encountering SOMEONE who is declaring that GOD "told them something"...."just now, last night, yesterday, a week from last Tuesday".....God SPOKE to them, COMMUNICATED with them...and they UNDERSTOOD IT!
Are you going to go on record here and now and declare that all those people were LYING and MADE IT ALL UP?

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]But the most important thing is that you can give me no logical reason why God would not use Messengers; you just don’t LIKE the idea, but God is not going to change His time honored method of communication because you and a few atheists don’t like it. An Omnipotent God does not take orders from humans.[/QUOTE]
The only LOGICAL reason I can give you, is that I do not believe that an OMNIPOTENT God, necessarily NEEDS someone to be 'relaying' (His) messages to people.....even YOU admit that God is more than CAPABLE of communicating to one, or a group, of people........just that (according to you), God doesn't WANT to.
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]all the Abrahamic religious believers have Messengers who established their religions, why pick on Baha’is?[/QUOTE]
Well, for nothing other than for reasons known only to Bahais, they have taken it upon themselves to refer to biblical "prophets" as "messengers".

And NONE of those "prophets" necessarily did any such thing as "established their religions". About ALL they did, was predict things...some of which came to fruition, some didn't.

The believed that they were doing the bidding of their God.....all the while never fully explaining why such a God actually NEEDED their "assistance". Sounds very 'suspect' if you ask me.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]What is demeaning about God using Messengers to communicate? Answer the question, and I want a logical answer.[/QUOTE]
It is demeaning to an omnipotent God, one believed to have literally THOUGHT the entire universe into being, would have to 'stoop' to the level of mentality of human beings, just to get a few words in edgewise, inbetween all the cacophony from all these human beings all talking at once about how GREAT and WONDERFUL and POWERFUL their God IS.....and then say God cannot, will not, or simply doesn't FEEL like saying what needs to be said, without going through some self-appointed mediator.
It IS demeaning to such a God! I would even go do far as to suggest that it is INSULTING to such a God.

[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]You are completely ILLOGICAL. If there was a better way, an All-Knowing and All-Wise God would have used that way, and we all know he hasn’t….[/QUOTE]
Which says to me, one of the following must be true....
1)God is NOT all-knowing or all-wise.
2)There is no such God.
3)It is purely a Bahai invention framed around the biblical notion that Jesus really DID say that no one can talk to God without going through himself.
And then the very same people who claim that Jesus said that, turn right around and declare that not only is GOD "god", but Jesus is "god" TOO. < rolls eyes now>
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]What you are saying is that you know more than God about how to communicate, which is logically impossible since you cannot be MORE than All-Knowing.[/QUOTE]
A completely irrational statement, born out of Bahai way of thinking, in order to justify their belief and need for a "messenger".
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]YOU do not MAKE the rules, God does. I suggest you get over it because you cannot MAKE an Omnipotent God do what you think He should. [/QUOTE]
There is something really seriously wrong with your line of reasoning here, but there would be no point in bringing it up, as you would simply deny it, and then come back with something else from your playbook of appropriate responses.
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 6089061, member: 63455]And if you do not LIKE what God does, take it up with God, not with me... I do not make the rules. [/QUOTE]
I'll take that under consideration, the next time I find nothing to watch on NetFlix.

 

[Trailblazer]

In response to:
Trailblazer said...“The only way to know ANYTHING about God is from what Messengers reveal. This is drop dead logical,”

ACEofALLaces said..."It may well be "logical" for you, as you are seeing it through Bahai-tinted glasses".
Well, actually there IS another way.....you've been presented with it before many times, and each time you reject it, because it does NOT coincide with your beliefs....and NOT because it is not possible, rational or even logical....YOU simply do not LIKE it.

Sorry, but there is no other WAY that God is going to CHOOSE to USE, so it is completely irrelevant that YOU can imagine another way.

I reject it because God does not use this as His Method of communication, just as ANY rational person would reject it when they looked around and realized that God does not use this as His Method of communication. As such,the idea of God communicating directly to everyone is nothing more than a fantasy, something you would LIKE God to do, but God does not DO what humans would LIKE Him to do, He only does what He CHOOSES to do.

Omnipotent means God can do anything, but any rational person could figure out that the converse also applies: God does not do anything God does not WANT to do.That goes along with being Omnipotent and in effect it means you cannot order God around like a short order cook and expect to get the hamburger as you would like it. ANY logical person could figure this out.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings, p, 284

 

[Trailblazer]

In my opinion, those who follow some self-proclaimed 'spokesperson for God', ARE nothing but "sheep"....THAT is what's going on.

No, that is not what is going on... Sheep is just a derogatory label you use to put people down because they do not agree with you, and you have nothing else to defend your own position... Most people in the world can SEE what you cannot SEE and they follow Messengers of God (Prophets). They are not all wrong.

What is going on is that you cannot trust God and the WAY He communicates to humanity... Instead, you want it your way rather than God’s Way. You are like a little kid who wants dad to buy him a bicycle and keeps insisting even after dad said NO.

Gee whiz, you really ARE a 'smart roving reporter', to have picked up on that so easily.
Actually, you are correct, I have come to not being very fond of ANY religion, not just yours.....but it IS your idea of there being a NECESSITY for these so-called "messengers", that borders on being downright ludicrous.

No, it borders on downright logical, for all the reasons I have heretofore stated.

I actually have plenty of GOOD reasons to not liking you idea of "messengers".....not necessarily the biblical notion of there being "prophets", just YOUR idea of them, and ESPECIALLY your Bahaullah, as being some actual "messenger" of God.

What are these reasons, other than the fact that you cannot TRUST that they REALLY got a message from God?

You simply cannot help yourself in what you believe, and I do not hold that against you as an individual. Your religion, OTOH, is not some super-duper special religion that has been "revealed" to someone who just happened to claim to have gotten it from God.

And that is really your beef isn’t it? So what you need to ask YOURSELF is why that bothers you so much.There MUST be a reason.

It is, in reality, a revised and reworked version of Islam... which IS perfectly understandable since some the chief proponents of your religion WERE all Muslims.

LOL, 100000000 times lol.... Obviously you do not KNOW the history of the Baha’iFaith... It was the Muslims who persecuted, imprisoned, and exiled Baha’u’llah because He claimed that He brought a NEW Revelation from God... This is similar to what the Jewish clerics did to Jesus, except what happened to Baha’u’llah lasted a lot longer, for 40 years.

You like to say that is no different than how Christianity is a revised and reworked version of Judaism, according to your now, well known, "apologetic"........

That is not an apologetic, it is the TRUTH.... The Baha’i Faith is no more a reworked version of Islam than Christianity is a reworked version of Judaism, and that demonstrates how LITTLE you know about the Baha’i Faith... but no matter, everyone on THIS forum has known the Baha’is for years so they know what the Baha’i Faith is not a reworked version of Islam.

In saying that, you actually DO shoot yourself in your own foot, in that Bahai IS very similar to Islam, and it is readily apparent as to Bahai, having its roots in Islam.

It is not similar because it has its roots in Islam, it is similar because it has its roots in GOD. It just so happens that it is more similar to Islam than the previous religions because Islam is CLOSER to the Truth than any of the older religions, since it is newer.

But DON'T be taking it as a slam specifically against Bahai, as I am opposed to ANY religion nowadays, as essentially being nothing more than shams...designed to either play upon some unsuspecting persons "fears", or their "emotional needs", or BOTH.

If you do not like religion, fine, but don’t make yourself look ridiculous by calling all the religions of the world shams, and don’t say the reason people believe in religions is because of emotional needs and fear... You do not need to tear others down in order to dislike religion, not unless you have a need to make yourself look superior.

One doesn't NEED any kind of "religion" in order to believe in God......mainly because, as far as I have been able to ascertain, God is not affiliated with any particular "religion" EITHER.

No, one does not need religion to believe in God, but one needs religion if one wants to know the Will of God.
God is affiliated with ALL the major religions.

Actually, no I do NOT know what they say about "tough love".....anyway, I do not feel that you are being NEAR as hard on me, and I am being on YOU.
You are compassionate about what YOU believe, just as I am equally AS compassionate about NOT believing what you believe.

That is probably true, you are harder on me... I guess you meant to say passionate. I would not say I am passionate because it is not an emotional thing, it is rather intellectual. But if you mean I am completely convinced, that is true, just as you are completely convinced you are right about what you believe.

So maybe it is time to call a truce, because you are not going to change me anymore than I am going to change you. If you are confident in YOUR position, what I believe should not bother you one iota. Because I am confident, nothing anyone says about the Baha’i Faith bothers me. You see, I did not get to the place where I am at today without a lot of careful thought. I fought the IDEA of religion for 42 years before I decided to take it seriously. I knew all along that the Baha’i Faith was true, I just did not like it being true.