Where was God...

[1213]

It is said that God is eternal and created everything. That being the case.....where was God BEFORE God 'created' a place for (Himself) to be?

I believe God was everything in the beginning, and nothing else was there.

 

[Trailblazer]

But it's not REALLY God's "will", is it, if God already has (His) mind made up?

I think you misunderstood what I meant by what I said.
When I said "God's will for us" I meant what God wants us to do, the teachings and laws that God revealed to Baha'u'llah. That is God's will for us because it is what God has willed for us.

So, what you're saying then, is that God doesn't "listen" to Baha'u'llah anymore than (He) "listens" to us?

God listens to everyone, but since God knows everything God does not need to LEARN from us or from Baha'u'llah. It is we and Baha'u'llah who learn from God.

Which brings me back to home base again.....that being the case, then why BOTHER?

Because we have to DO what God already KNOWS we will do, or it won't get done.
God does not CAUSE things to happen, we cause things to happen; God just KNOWS what those things will be since God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before during and after they transpire in this world..

 

[ACEofALLaces]

God listens to everyone, but since God knows everything God does not need to LEARN from us or from Baha'u'llah. It is we and Baha'u'llah who learn from God.

Because we have to DO what God already KNOWS we will do, or it won't get done.

I have had the opportunity to read what you and a number of other posters have said in the past about this particular matter.
I see it this way......if God ALREADY knows what we will do, "we" have no CHOICE but to 'do' what the God ALREADY knows "we" will 'do'.

God does not CAUSE things to happen,

I've seen this one a lot also...and personally, I like the responses that you get, better than your comment.....to which I must agree with them, in that God ITSELF does not cause things to happen, just that the God KNOWS things will happen, therefore they HAPPEN.

we cause things to happen;

In a true, "God-Knows-Everything" situation, there is NOTHING any of us 'can do', that the God doesn't already KNOW we will do. If we COULD do something that God didn't know ahead of time....then God could NOT be said to be "All Knowing".

God just KNOWS what those things will be since God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before during and after they transpire in this world..

Gobbledegook....nothing but fancy sounding gobbledegook. Doesn't really say anything relevant to God being "All Knowing".

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I believe God was everything in the beginning, and nothing else was there.

Are you even able to wrap your mind around such a declaration, of something 'being' where 'nothing' is?...yet it itself is 'everything', IN this 'nothing'?
Makes MY ears twitch even TRYING to make sense of that.

 

[MJFlores]

I bet that there are, if the ones you provided above are an example.
At least MY question is reasonable....yours are simply ridiculous, bordering on ludicrous.
"Where was (He) before eternity?.....you GOTTA be kidding...you aren't serious, are you?...."BEFORE" eternity?[/QUOTE]

Ecclesiastes 3:11 New International Version (NIV)
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

What is everlasting? What is eternity?
I cannot even fathom how long it is.
It is not even...

 

[Trailblazer]

I have had the opportunity to read what you and a number of other posters have said in the past about this particular matter.
I see it this way......if God ALREADY knows what we will do, "we" have no CHOICE but to 'do' what the God ALREADY knows "we" will 'do'.

That is true, we have to DO what God knows we will DO because what God knows we will DO is identical with what we will DO.

I've seen this one a lot also...and personally, I like the responses that you get, better than your comment.....to which I must agree with them, in that God ITSELF does not cause things to happen, just that the God KNOWS things will happen, therefore they HAPPEN.

But they do not happen because God KNOWS they will happen. They happen because we CAUSE them to happen by what we DO. If we did not DO what God knows we will DO, nothing would happen.

In a true, "God-Knows-Everything" situation, there is NOTHING any of us 'can do', that the God doesn't already KNOW we will do. If we COULD do something that God didn't know ahead of time....then God could NOT be said to be "All Knowing".

That is true as well.

Gobbledegook....nothing but fancy sounding gobbledegook. Doesn't really say anything relevant to God being "All Knowing".

Surrounding all things is just a fancy way of saying that God KNOWS everything all the time, so God knows everything that has happened is happening or will happen in our time zone.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

That is true, we have to DO what God knows we will DO because what God knows we will DO is identical with what we will DO.

For a person who prizes how "logical" she is, you come up with this circular little gem.
In LAYMANS' terms, it means we cannot do anything OTHER than what the all-knowing God knows we will do.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

But they do not happen because God KNOWS they will happen. They happen because we CAUSE them to happen by what we DO. If we did not DO what God knows we will DO, nothing would happen.

Well, in a sense it actually DOES happen that way....because if God KNOWS something is going to happen, then it MUST happen.......therefore it CAN be said that it is God's KNOWLEDGE of something happening, that means it WILL happen......maybe God (Himself) didn't do it, or "make it happen", but God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of the event predicted that it would happen....and since God is "all knowing", it HAD to happen.
That's ALMOST the same as making it happen

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Surrounding all things is just a fancy way of saying that God KNOWS everything all the time, so God knows everything that has happened is happening or will happen in our time zone.

And THAT is why I said what you offered previously, was just gobbledegook. Saying it in common, easy-to-understand SIMPLE language, was MUCH better.
HOWever.....how would God actually KNOW what would happen "in the future", if the future has not yet occurred? That IS why it is called the "future", isn't it?
God, being a really smart 'cookie', can most certainly pick with uncanny certainty what is LIKELY to occur in the future....but to actually KNOW it, FOR A FACT, means that, for the God at least (as unreasonable as it is), the future has ALREADY happened...which if you wish to carry that out a little ways, it becomes a serious contender for "free will", to really BE "free".

 

[Trailblazer]

For a person who prizes how "logical" she is, you come up with this circular little gem.
In LAYMANS' terms, it means we cannot do anything OTHER than what the all-knowing God knows we will do.

If we can only DO what God knows what we will DO, what we DO has to be identical with what God knows we will DO. THAT is just another WAY of saying what you said.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

An awful lot of people do try though, don't they?

What is everlasting? What is eternity?
I cannot even fathom how long it is.
It is not even...

I happen to be a fan of Carl Sagan...but that little fugue-like chant, was pretty much a waste of time.
So we humans cannot comprehend the conception of 'eternity'....other than that, what was your point, as it blew right over my head, or possible right through my ears.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, in a sense it actually DOES happen that way....because if God KNOWS something is going to happen, then it MUST happen.......therefore it CAN be said that it is God's KNOWLEDGE of something happening, that means it WILL happen......maybe God (Himself) didn't do it, or "make it happen", but God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of the event predicted that it would happen....and since God is "all knowing", it HAD to happen.
That's ALMOST the same as making it happen

No, this is where you go off track.
God's knowledge is not what CAUSES it to happen. It is what we DO that causes it to happen. Likewise, a scientist's knowledge that an eclipse will take place somewhere on earth at a given time does not cause the eclipse.

The caveat is that not everything God KNOWS will happen is set in stone so our fate can be changed. An impending fate is a fate that God would be willing to change if we do certain things like pray. But since God is All-Knowing God knows that we will say that prayer and change our own destiny.

In short, you are right, what God KNOWS will happen has to happen but what God knows is subject to change, it is not STATIC.... Oh heck, I will let Baha'u'llah explain it...

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133​

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

If we can only DO what God knows what we will DO, what we DO has to be identical with what God knows we will DO. THAT is just another WAY of saying what you said.

All the while I have this mental image of little Tigger, chasing his tale around and around a tree.....all the while thinking, if I can go fast enough, I might be able to catch it....but the faster I go, the faster the tale goes.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

No, this is where you go off track.
God's knowledge is not what CAUSES it to happen. It is what we DO that causes it to happen. Likewise, a scientist's knowledge that an eclipse will take place somewhere on earth at a given time does not cause the eclipse.

Like you just said in a earlier posting....."If we did not DO what God knows we will DO, nothing would happen."
You CANNOT have it both ways.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

The caveat is that not everything God KNOWS will happen is set in stone so our fate can be changed. An impending fate is a fate that God would be willing to change if we do certain things like pray. But since God is All-Knowing God knows that we will say that prayer and change our own destiny.

In short, you are right, what God KNOWS will happen has to happen but what God knows is subject to change, it is not STATIC.... Oh heck, I will let Baha'u'llah explain it...[/QUOTE]
Oh so now, here comes all the EXCEPTIONS. How else are you going to be able to deal with such a contradiction without offering up an "exception" or two? <hint, you can't>

 

[ACEofALLaces]

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God.

Ahhhhh yes, back to THAT old trump-card, where God is God and because God is God, God can do whatever God WANTS to do.
Got it...been there and done that...

 

[Trailblazer]

And THAT is why I said what you offered previously, was just gobbledegook. Saying it in common, easy-to-understand SIMPLE language, was MUCH better.
HOWever.....how would God actually KNOW what would happen "in the future", if the future has not yet occurred? That IS why it is called the "future", isn't it?

The future has not occurred yet in our material world where time is measured by the sun, but here is no such time in God's domain; as I said, God knows everything all at once (which means that God's mind surrounds the knowledge of everything that ever happened or ever will happen)... that is one meaning of All-Knowing related to events... the other meaning of All-Knowing is that God knows everything there IS to know, meaning that God has knowledge of ALL things.

God, being a really smart 'cookie', can most certainly pick with uncanny certainty what is LIKELY to occur in the future....but to actually KNOW it, FOR A FACT, means that, for the God at least (as unreasonable as it is), the future has ALREADY happened...which if you wish to carry that out a little ways, it becomes a serious contender for "free will", to really BE "free".

What you do not SEEM to understand is that there is no such thing as the future for God because God is not constrained by earthly time... Likewise, when we die and go to the spiritual world time as we know it will no longer exist... We will just exist forever and we won't be thinking of the past or the future.

But you are right, free will is not as free as some people imagine, because SOME things are predestined, IF they are the irrevocable fate Baha'u'llah wrote about in that passage I posted a few minutes ago... But since we cannot KNOW what is irrevocable fate and what is impending fate (only God knows that) we need to act as if we have a choice and we will never know the difference. Every moment is a new moment and a new opportunity to change. If that were not so, then Baha'ullah would not have written this:

40. O My Servant!
Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more.
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

All the while I have this mental image of little Tigger, chasing his tale around and around a tree.....all the while thinking, if I can go fast enough, I might be able to catch it....but the faster I go, the faster the tale goes.

Sorry, I cannot make my images for going in circles post on this forum, maybe later...

 

[Trailblazer]

Like you just said in a earlier posting....."If we did not DO what God knows we will DO, nothing would happen."
You CANNOT have it both ways.

And so????

 

[Trailblazer]

"In short, you are right, what God KNOWS will happen has to happen but what God knows is subject to change, it is not STATIC.... Oh heck, I will let Baha'u'llah explain it.."
Oh so now, here comes all the EXCEPTIONS. How else are you going to be able to deal with such a contradiction without offering up an "exception" or two? <hint, you can't>

God is the ONE who makes the exceptions, not me...
God CAN do whatever He wants to DO because God is ALL-Powerful.