Where was God...

[George-ananda]

Sure I can....and I just did. What you need to do for me now, is explain the actual difference between something which cannot be proven to exist, from something that actually does NOT exist.
How does one go about accomplishing that objective?

I don't claim the ability to prove God's existence.

I have reasons for believing that include the discussion of the nature of consciousness, consciousness without a brain (so-called paranormal phenomena), and the insight of many masters that have claimed experience of the One Consciousness (God). I consider everything and believe the understanding I find most reasonable to believe is the most reasonable.

It definitely is MUCH easier to discuss something of which there is no evidence of it actually existing outside of ones own mind, than to discuss something which DOES exist but defies all sense of reason as to just HOW it exists.
As a general rule, I avoid discussions about "things" which cannot be measured, weighed, seen, touched, and have no 'material' parts...yet are CLAIMED to be true and actually DO exist.

Well what you describe is the materialist/physicalist position. And you have chosen that position.

But, as for me, my decades of study of things paranormal and spiritual has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt that dramatic and important things lie outside the reach of the physicalist/materialist worldview. I am interested in those things.

 

[atanu]

So what you are saying is that I should put rationality and common sense aside for the time being, and begin thinking from a totally UNrealistic perspective? Make things up, in other words?

You are queer. You asked a question. And when I try to answer you start insulting.

Our sleeping state is unrealistic? It is nearest to everyone ‘s experience. Is enquiring into our own sleep state irrational? No.

Understanding that space-time is undefinable in absence of objects ( like in deep sleep state) is directly linked to your initial question.

For no other reason, that it appears to me, like most of the respondees to my question, that they would rather attempt to alter the focus of the question, than actually address it head on.
It is my firm conviction that the average "Joe" does not like admitting that they simply "do not know".
You DID ask.....

It seems you have no interest to learn other viewpoints.

 

[shunyadragon]

That's nice. Presuming that is actually true, why do you suppose God later on said "let there BE light", if God was already the "light"?

Well, ah . . . first those that compiled Genesis wrote that God said it, and not necessarily God. Maybe, of course this refers to the physical Creation and not God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok, I'll play your game of words with you. So, when I say, before God made Eve, (He) made Adam....you, in your infinite wisdom, would come back and tell me that there can be no 'before' God, right? For no other RATIONAL reason than the word "before" just HAPPENS to come ahead of the word God.

No word games at all.. Putting the word 'before' before the word God does not translate that anything came before God. Simply be definition God is eternal and infinite and nothing came before God.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I don't claim the ability to prove God's existence.

Bless the world for small miracles.

I have reasons for believing that include the discussion of the nature of consciousness, consciousness without a brain (so-called paranormal phenomena), and the insight of many masters that have claimed experience of the One Consciousness (God). I consider everything and believe the understanding I find most reasonable to believe is the most reasonable.

There was a time in my life, when I too believed in the paranormal. There were things I myself experienced, which at the time, absolutely defied any rational explanation. Dreams, especially held a special fascination for me.
Time continued to march along, and I put away such things, as not only unprovable, but implausible as well.

Well what you describe is the materialist/physicalist position. And you have chosen that position.

Hang whatever label you feel is appropriate, it is what it is, and I am who I am, and am satisfied with it.

But, as for me, my decades of study of things paranormal and spiritual has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt that dramatic and important things lie outside the reach of the physicalist/materialist worldview. I am interested in those things.

I can't say I spent decades studying it, but did enough research to come to the conclusion that what most people see as being of some sort of paranomral experience, is nothing more than their own fears, prejudices, and/or preconceived notions, playing tricks on their otherwise innocent subconscious.
People simply WANT to believe something. Been there, done that....voice of experience speaking.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Well, ah . . . first those that compiled Genesis wrote that God said it, and not necessarily God. Maybe, of course this refers to the physical Creation and not God.

Yep...mebbie this...mebbie that....mebbie something else. I understand<wink wink>

 

[ACEofALLaces]

No word games at all.. Putting the word 'before' before the word God does not translate that anything came before God. Simply by definition God is eternal and infinite and nothing came before God.

Gee whiz then WHY have you been beating this non-issue to death here with me...just as a distraction from the actual question itself?

 

[George-ananda]

Bless the world for small miracles.


There was a time in my life, when I too believed in the paranormal. There were things I myself experienced, which at the time, absolutely defied any rational explanation. Dreams, especially held a special fascination for me.
Time continued to march along, and I put away such things, as not only unprovable, but implausible as well.



Hang whatever label you feel is appropriate, it is what it is, and I am who I am, and am satisfied with it.


I can't say I spent decades studying it, but did enough research to come to the conclusion that what most people see as being of some sort of paranomral experience, is nothing more than their own fears, prejudices, and/or preconceived notions, playing tricks on their otherwise innocent subconscious.
People simply WANT to believe something. Been there, done that....voice of experience speaking.

Well, we are seeing one major difference between us.

I believe beyond all reasonable doubt that things (so-called paranormal) have occurred that dramatically show the limitations of our understanding of consciousness and the physicalist worldview.

If you believe no such things genuinely occur and the physicalist worldview can make sense of it all then we are not going to agree on much here.

 

[dybmh]

Time is not a 'stand-alone' entity. It is contingent on being able to measure how it takes for something to happen. For that to happen, obviously there must first BE something to measure. And then there needs to be someone there TO measure it.
PRESUMING God made matter and the universe, the ability to "measure" such occurances, became available. Time was not necessarily "created".....it is a BY-PRODUCT of creation.

You're speaking about measuring time.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

You are queer. You asked a question. And when I try to answer you start insulting.

Really? Actually I am as 'straight as an arrow. As far as you answering the initial question, I must have missed that, in with the rest of the unrelated superlatives.
Answer it again and I PROMISE to be paying strict attention.

Our sleeping state is unrealistic? It is nearest to everyone ‘s experience. Is enquiring into our own sleep state irrational? No.

In a REAL debate situation, what you offered with your sleep stuff would be considered a "strawman'. However, I indulged you anyway and responded to it....only to be accused of being insulting.

Understanding that space-time is undefinable in absence of objects ( like in deep sleep state) is directly linked to your initial question.

I suppose...if you say so. I do not necessarily agree with it though.

It seems you have no interest to learn other viewpoints.

If they are RELEVANT, sure I am interested. However if they are only diversionary in nature as to pull ones attention AWAY from the focus of the initial question, then no, I have no interest.[/QUOTE]

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Well, we are seeing one major difference between us.

I believe beyond all reasonable doubt that things (so-called paranormal) have occurred that dramatically show the limitations of our understanding of consciousness and the physicalist worldview.

As I said previously, I was once a believer and an advocate of paranormal happenings. It use to bug me to no end, until a wise individual told me that I should NOT allow things for which I have no explanation for, to cause me such consternation.
I took what he said to heart and believe it or not, 99% of my perceived-to-be-paranormal occurrences, ceased to occur.

If you believe no such things genuinely occur and the physicalist worldview can make sense of it all then we are not going to agree on much here.

It would appear that way, wouldn't it? Still, 'twas nice chatting with you.

 

[George-ananda]

I should NOT allow things for which I have no explanation for, to cause me such consternation.

Consternation? I think it is exciting and life affirming to have an expanded view of reality. We are more than matter is my take-away.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

If you believe no such things genuinely occur and the physicalist worldview can make sense of it all then we are not going to agree on much here.

I DO have one thing I feel is worthy of mention. While in LA some years back, I attended a seminar at the UCLA center for paranormal phenomena.
I was witness to an individual sitting in a chair in the middle of the stage, blindfolded. The experiment was to demonstrate the "power of positive suggestion".
The individual was (I presume) put into a hypnotic trance, where it was then "suggested" to him that he was going to be touched on the skin of his bare arm with a HOT needle, like a darning needle.......only it was in reality, just an ordinary lead pencil.
Almost immediately where the pencil contacted the individual's skin a VERY VISIBLE welt appeared as though he HAD indeed been burned by a hot poker.
Shortly afterwards, he was brought "back" to awarness and was asked if he felt anything unusual...to which he responded not he did not.
Interestingly, the "welt" which appeared, had just as miraculously DISappeared.
Did it REALLY happen? Indeed it did as there was an auditorium of witnesses to that effect. But the object of the experiment, knew nothing and remembered nothing of it whatsoever.
The POWER of positive suggestion. I will admit to that, but go no further....except to acknowledge the 'placebo effect' is a known medical phenomenon as well.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

You're speaking about measuring time.

Yeah, sure I am.....NOT!

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Consternation? I think it is exciting and life affirming to have an expanded view of reality. We are more than matter is my take-away.

Another quote I picked up from another poster on another forum, has also left its indelible mark on me......it goes like this: "There is more to this phenomenon that we call existence, than what meets the eye."
It IS in that respect that I must agree with your last statement.

 

[George-ananda]

I DO have one think I feel is worthy of mention. While in LA some years back, I attended a seminar at the UCLA center for paranormal phenomena.
I was witness to an individual sitting in a chair in the middle of the stage, blindfolded. The experiment was to demonstrate the "power of positive suggestion".
The individual was (I presume) put into a hypnotic trance, where it was then "suggested" to him that he was going to be touched on the skin of his bare arm with a HOT needle, like a darning needle.......only it was in reality, just an ordinary lead pencil.
Almost immediately where the pencil contacted the individual's skin a VERY VISIBLE welt appeared as though he HAD indeed been burned by a hot poker.
Shortly afterwards, he was brought "back" to awarness and was asked if he felt anything unusual...to which he responded not he did not.
Interestingly, the "welt" which appeared, had just as miraculously DISappeared.
Did it REALLY happen? Indeed it did as there was an auditorium of witnesses to that effect. But the object of the experiment, knew nothing and remembered nothing of it whatsoever.
The POWER of positive suggestion. I will admit to that, but go no further....except to acknowledge the 'placebo effect' is a known medical phenomenon as well.

That phenomena is pretty amazing and may actually involve the person’s etheric/energy body.

But I believe in a lot of different types of phenomena. Particularly interesting to me is Afterlife Evidence (link).

 

[ACEofALLaces]

That phenomena is pretty amazing and may actually involve the person’s etheric/energy body.

Yes indeed! At the time it was utterly astounding and if I hadn't been there myself to witness it, I would have strong misgivings had I heard it from someone else.

But I believe in a lot of different types of phenomena. Particularly interesting to me is Afterlife Evidence.

Unfortunately, I must draw the line on anything even remotely associated with "afterlifes" "resurrections", "re-incarnations".

I have, among many other things, spent a great deal of time researching the phenomena of NDE's and OBE's, and find nothing of substance worthy of further consideration. Anecdotal claims and recollections while in a state of unconsciousness, are NOT valid indicators of the veracity such claims.

Of course you are free to believe whatever comes to your mind. I will just leave it at that for the time being.

 

[shunyadragon]

Gee whiz then WHY have you been beating this non-issue to death here with me...just as a distraction from the actual question itself?

Simply . . . because it addresses the specific question itself as to the nature of God.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Simply . . . because it addresses the specific question itself as to the nature of God.

The NATURE of God, you say? Who in their right mind would declare with any kind of positive assurance that they KNOW the "nature of God"?

 

[shunyadragon]

The NATURE of God, you say? Who in their right mind would declare with any kind of positive assurance that they KNOW the "nature of God"?

It is not a matter of knowing nor not knowing God. It is how God is defined that theists like Jews, Christians, and Muslims. God is considered eternal and infinite, and without beginning nor ending.