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Where was God...

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Then why do your responses come across as though you DO know?

I have been abundantly clear God is believed not known including from my perspective.

Same response as above.

Same response as above.

Yes, (HE)...meaning God......you stated that God does not change before or after creation.
I never MADE any such accusation, therefore it was unnecessarily for you to have responded as you did.....unless, as I suggested, you felt 'compelled' to.

God is unknown as to He nor She from the human perspective at any time. God described from the human perspective is the human perspective of God, and not God.

That's not what Bahaullah said.

That is what Baha'u'llah said: God is unknowable from the human perspective.

From:
God in the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahá%27í_Faith

The Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3]Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation.

From: Quotations from Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute…Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery.

(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace…hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)

I don't MEAN to be sounding rude, but are you not capable of independent thoughts of your own?

No problem you are being rude. This has nothing to do with whether I have independent thoughts on my own or not.

I am not speaking from the perspective of necessarily what a Christian believes,

I did not say that.

but what I myself believes, or does not believe.
I would expect the same from you in return, if you don't mind.

That is what you get in return.
 
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ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
I have been abundantly clear God is believed not known including from my perspective.
Fair enough.

God is unknown as to He nor She from the human perspective at any time. God described from the human perspective is the human perspective of God, and not God.
I know that....it's the reason I bracketed the "he".....I only do it out of convention, not from actual belief that God has specific gender,

That is what Baha'u'llah said: God is unknowable from the human perspective.
I am quite aware as well as having familiarized myself with some of what your Baha'u'llah has had to say.

No problem you are being rude. This has nothing to do with whether I have independent thoughts on my own or not.
See it and take it as you wish. I am not going to be wasting your time cutting and pasting Judeo/Christian scripture, when I am more than capable of expressing what I have to say myself.
If you cannot or will not afford me the same courtesy in return, do not expect too many responses from this point in time on.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I know that....it's the reason I bracketed the "he".....I only do it out of convention, not from actual belief that God has specific gender,

OK

I am quite aware as well as having familiarized myself with some of what your Baha'u'llah has had to say.

I do not buy it. Then if you claim to cite fome thing Baha'u'llah sid, quote the source.

See it and take it as you wish. I am not going to be wasting your time cutting and pasting Judeo/Christian scripture, when I am more than capable of expressing what I have to say myself.

That's your problem.

If you cannot or will not afford me the same courtesy in return, do not expect too many responses from this point in time on.

I have given my views in return.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It is said that God is eternal and created everything. That being the case.....where was God BEFORE God 'created' a place for (Himself) to be?

"It is no defect of a great fountain that it sometimes overflow" Jonathan Edwards on
the creation of the world

In a theism like Christianity, God is outside space and time so not a problem.
In a pantheism or panentheism that would be a problem.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Glad to be able to replace that dour mood with something a bit more pleasurable.
You do Ace, you always brighten up my day with your joviality. :)
This is just too easy....obviously, you're up to something.
Yeah, I am always up to something, dontcha know, sneaky Susan... ;)
Now THAT's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. If as you say, "creation has always existed, then it cannot be referred to AS a creation, now can it?

Knowing you, I have a pretty good idea "who" is accredited with this 'passage'.
And you STILL have not actually answered the question.

The answer was IN that passage but I will try to put it in plainer English for you. Just because God is CALLED the Creator does not mean that God created anything. Creator is just a title, just as Lord of Men is a title.

“His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

God CAUSED life on earth to come into existence by being behind the process of evolution, but there was a creation even before that. We know that because it says in that passage:

“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150


This is not something we can wrap our heads around, it is beyond human understanding.But surely Creation includes MORE than life on this earth. There is a whole Universe out there, and maybe even parallel Universes.

Then we have this....

“Every thing must needs have an origin and every building a builder. Verily, the Word of God is the Cause which hath preceded the contingent world—a world which is adorned with the splendours of the Ancient of Days, yet is being renewed and regenerated at all times. Immeasurably exalted is the God of Wisdom Who hath raised this sublime structure.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 141

Now, I suppose you are going to ask me what the Word of God is... You tell me and then we will both know. :rolleyes: Perhaps it means that God said BE and then the contingent world as we know it came into being.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Contrary to popular belief, science doesn't really know the half of it.....or even a fraction of what there is to know......So "what" God is will remain a mystery until we have the mental capacity to comprehend him. We have a long way to go methinks.....:D

I didn't mention science though?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I am conversant with biblical creation theory. Not particularly a big fan of it, but 'conversant' with it.
he made the stars also"[/QUOTE]
Almost mind you.....ALMOST, sounds like it was an 'afterthought, to mention those stars.....all tens of billions of trillions of them.....yes, oh by the way, "I made the stars, too". <quote/unquote> God.[/QUOTE]


Seeing that you never answered the question, but going about avoiding it.

So what's the difference between the light in Genesis 1:3---"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light"

And the light in Genesis 1:14-16
14--"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years"

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also"

So stay with the subject, and not go about other things that has nothing to with the subject that's being talk about.
So whats the difference between the two lights ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sounds like something that I would ask, heh heh heh.
Anyway, according to what it written in that Book, God is said more often that not, to be somewhere in Heaven, Sitting on (His) Throne.
It is believed by the majority of believers, that God is "omnipresent", which by loose definition means God is EVERYWHERE at all times and NOWHERE at any particular time.
To me there is an obvious contradiction there....but of course, that is just how I see and interpret it.
I personally have a problem with the the omnipresent attribute as being quite unrealistic, even in principle.
Which brings me BACK to the issue of WHERE was God before God created a place for (Himself) to be?
Unless God is nothing more than a figment of ones imagination, I figure God HAD to have "been" somewhere OUTSIDE of (His) creation......I am just seeking clues and any reasonable opinions of just WHERE or WHAT that place might be.
So far.....no such luck.
The Biblical account of creation is about the creation of the universe.

We are creatures of the universe. What exists outside the universe is a mystery to us, except what hints we are given.

The references to what exists there are in terms we can relate to and understand. Is there really a throne ? I don´t know. Perhaps it is referred to as a symbol of authority.

Anyway, we have a good idea of what exists in the universe and what natural laws apply, outside the universe, we know virtually nothing.,
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
Body-less / Place-less / From-less / Shape-less Doesn't require PLACE to reside:)
Well, from my perspective, something which is "Form-less", "Shape-less", "Body-less", "Place-Less", and we might as well add "Weight-less", and "Mass-less", and of course "Time-less", does not really "exist" at all.
The universe can therefore be said to have come into existence, by means of what could be said to have been something on the order of "Spontaneous Expansion/Combustion".
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
Seeing that you never answered the question, but going about avoiding it.

So what's the difference between the light in Genesis 1:3---"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light"

So stay with the subject, and not go about other things that has nothing to with the subject that's being talk about.
So whats the difference between the two lights ?

That's fair enough. The Big One was in reference to the Sun, while the Littler One was in reference to the Moon.
Happy now?
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
The answer was IN that passage but I will try to put it in plainer English for you. Just because God is CALLED the Creator does not mean that God created anything. Creator is just a title, just as Lord of Men is a title.
“His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-78.html.utf8?query=existed&action=highlight#gr1
Well, just between you and me, I sure am glad that Bahá’u’lláh sought to clarify that little bit of verbal nonsense. So this "Creator God", didn't really "create" the universe? Ok.

God CAUSED life on earth to come into existence by being behind the process of evolution, but there was a creation even before that. We know that because it says in that passage:
“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Now, I must correct you and Bahá’u’lláh on something.....Evolution has absolutely NOTHING to do with HOW life came about. That is called abiogenesis. Evolution is only concerned with life AFTER its having come into being.

This is not something we can wrap our heads around, it is beyond human understanding.But surely Creation includes MORE than life on this earth. There is a whole Universe out there, and maybe even parallel Universes.
I like it when people employ words as though they actually know what they mean. Take the word "universe", just for example. Defined, it translates to "all there is".
Now consider that with your comment regarding 'parallel universes'......which according to the aforementioned definition, would mean "parallel all there is's". See what I mean? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Then we have this....
“Every thing must needs have an origin and every building a builder. Verily, the Word of God is the Cause which hath preceded the contingent world—a world which is adorned with the splendours of the Ancient of Days, yet is being renewed and regenerated at all times. Immeasurably exalted is the God of Wisdom Who hath raised this sublime structure.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 141

Now, I suppose you are going to ask me what the Word of God is... You tell me and then we will both know.
I wouldn't THINK of doing that, heh heh heh.

In my estimation however, there really is no such thing as any "Word of God", because God didn't actually write anything......everything that is attributed TO God, just happens to be the WORDS of men, who expressed what THEY thought about God, and wrote THAT down.
Over time, the collection of all of those musings, became known as the Bible...aka the Word of God....and people accepted and believed it....many still do, for that matter.

:rolleyes: Perhaps it means that God said BE and then the contingent world as we know it came into being.
Perhaps.....from a purely logical and rational perspective, ANYthing is possible......even the most improbable, is "possible".
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't MEAN to be sounding rude, but are you not capable of independent thoughts of your own?
We could, but then we would just be talking about an imaginary God, not the Real God.
The ONLY WAY to KNOW anything about the Real God is from what the Messengers of God such as Baha'u'llah reveal ABOUT GOD. Anything else is mere conjecture.... Why waste our precious time on conjecture when we have the information readily available? That makes no logical sense.
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
The ONLY WAY to KNOW anything about the Real God is from what the Messengers of God such as Baha'u'llah reveal ABOUT GOD. Anything else is mere conjecture.... Why waste our precious time on conjecture when we have the information readily available? That makes no logical sense.
Give me a little latitude here, and I will attempt to answer your question.
Allow me to use the Christian bible as a point of reference. Supposin' a Christian believer is relating something to you (a non believer), which they have learned from their bible......it would seem quite reasonable for then to relate what they have learned to the other person in their own words......RATHER than reciting scripture, which the other person (probably) knows nothing about, and probably cares even less about, at that time.

They COULD of course, point the other person in the 'direction' of where to look that up for themselves, by providing the necessary references....so that the person can look it up and possibly do further research, if they are so motivated.

Otherwise, their posting quote after quote of someone the other person has most likely never heard of, would be likened to them jabbering Mandarin Chinese at someone from Bophuthatswana, South Africa.
And THAT is what would be a BIG waste of not only their time, but the other persons time as well.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
We could, but then we would just be talking about an imaginary God, not the Real God.
The ONLY WAY to KNOW anything about the Real God is from what the Messengers of God such as Baha'u'llah reveal ABOUT GOD. Anything else is mere conjecture.... Why waste our precious time on conjecture when we have the information readily available? That makes no logical sense.

What about for the messengers of God? How do they know anything about the Real God?

I'm a messenger of God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-78.html.utf8?query=existed&action=highlight#gr1
You do not have to correct Baha’u’llah, because He already KNOWS these things… I was not repeating what Baha’u’llah said because I do not recall Him addressing this matter… I was just spewing forth my own ignorance, so thanks for correcting me… I did not KNOW what abiogenesis was.
I like it when people employ words as though they actually know what they mean. Take the word "universe", just for example. Defined, it translates to "all there is".
Now consider that with your comment regarding 'parallel universes'......which according to the aforementioned definition, would mean "parallel all there is's". See what I mean? Doesn't make sense, does it?
When I said “parallel universes” I was referring to the multiverse; and yes, together they comprise all that is.

The multiverse,[1] also known as an omniverse or meta-universe, is a hypothetical group of multiple universes. Together, these universes comprise everything that exists: the entirety of space, time, matter, energy, and the physical laws and constants that describe them.[2][3][4][5] The different universes within the multiverse are called "parallel universes", "other universes", or "alternate universes".[6][7][8]
Multiverse - Wikipedia
In my estimation however, there really is no such thing as any "Word of God", because God didn't actually write anything......everything that is attributed TO God, just happens to be the WORDS of men, who expressed what THEY thought about God, and wrote THAT down.
No, it is not what they thought about God, it is what God revealed TO THEM about Himself…. Big difference there.

It IS the Word of God because God spoke to those men, who were not JUST men; they were Manifestations of God… I had to clarify that with another poster yesterday, so I have all that written up and saved in a Word document.

Human-like was the wrong choice of words. Rather, Messengers of God are humans who are Godlike in the sense that they have a divine mind. Their divine station is not something we ordinary humans can comprehend, but we can understand their human station, and that is why they can bridge the gap between God and ordinary humans and act as mediators.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself............. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

In short, there can be no direct communication between God and ordinary humans. God is exalted beyond the understanding of ordinary humans so they cannot receive or understand messages from God.

The Manifestation of God (what I refer to as a Messenger) is a pure and stainless Soul who is made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. He is made of the substance of God Himself so He is not just an ordinary human; He is another order of Creation above a human. Because he has qualities of both God and man, He can act as a mediator between God and man and He has the capacity to receive and understand communication from God and relay it back to ordinary humans in a way that they can comprehend it.
Over time, the collection of all of those musings, became known as the Bible...aka the Word of God....and people accepted and believed it....many still do, for that matter.
The salient difference between the Bible and the Writings of Baha’u’llah is that men – NOT Manifestations of God – wrote the Bible. They were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but that is not the SAME as getting direct communication FROM God as Baha’u’llah did and writing it down as Baha’u’llah did. That is as close to communication FROM God s one can get, given God does not communicate to ordinary humans, for reasons noted above.
Perhaps.....from a purely logical and rational perspective, ANYthing is possible......even the most improbable, is "possible".
Well, I am glad to hear that you are open-minded and rational. :D
 
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