FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
And we may add that humans will behave exactly the same similar to the way that they see and smell ...etc,which isn't the case.
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Which evolved first, consciousness or senses
- Thread starter FearGod
- Start date
And we may add that humans will behave exactly the same similar to the way that they see and smell ...etc,which isn't the case.
Right, that is why I thought it was a mistake to bring up the subject in the first place.
But moving on...
Senses evolved very early on in very simple organisms. Consciousness evolved much latter as a way to deal with increasingly complex and subtle sensory input.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
You can't say "as a way", it makes evolution as a choice and not a natural selection.
Very good point! People often speak that way about evolution as a kind of metaphorical short hand. But it is incorrect. I could and should have said it like this.
Senses evolved early on as those organisms that had the ability to detect elements of their environment had a survival advantage over those organisms that has no senses. Then organisms that had more senses and more advanced senses evolved because they had a survival advantage over those who only had very simple basic senses. Then organisms that had the ability to process that sensory input effectively had a survival advantage over those organisms that reacted to the sensory information in only simple basic ways. Consciousness is a very effective way of processing sensory input and so organisms with consciousness had a survival advantage.
It should also be understood that what I have described above represents only one of many paths that evolution has taken. Other organisms have taken a different path where consciousness did not evolve.
No because your assuming determinism which likely isn't true. I actually think awareness is possible because of the nature of the cosmos being in-deterministic allowing for choice otherwise there would be no need for awareness. There would be no need know what influences and determines our course of action.
The universe is intelligent because since the beginning, all of time could be known, we evolved from that primordial awareness. The way physics works allows for life to become more complex over time as evolution has thoroughly pointed out.
Evidence of intelligence coming about, the earth started off dumb and is now smart. Does that help?
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Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Both consciousness and "senses" are based on interaction -one thing sensing or being aware of something else on the most basic level. Senses make one aware of the external, but consciousness is sensing both internal and external in more complex ways -including one's state in relation to its environment.
If you are referring to the evolution of life on earth, some creatures do not have a complex consciousness or self-awareness, but do sense certain things and react to those things as a simple self.
Life on earth began within an environment which was already complex, but if there was an initial original evolution of all things, the beginning would have been the most simple state possible -but complex enough to allow for all that now is.
A consciousness requires an arrangement of something -as does self-awareness -and different arrangements allow for different types and levels of such.
A fish is conscious and self-aware, but not in as complex an arrangement as man, for example. Man is conscious and self-aware, but not perfectly self-aware because man is not able to sense and keep track of the exact state of every part of the self, because man's arrangement does not allow for it.
Certain arrangements must be preceded by certain levels of consciousness and self-awareness, and consciousness and self-awareness exist by arrangement.
If the whole of everything is considered to be a self -a self-same thing -then it definitely has complex interaction, complex arrangement -and apparently complex consciousness and self-awareness based on the present arrangement of things and what must have preceded the present arrangement.
I don't know the exact nature of that which originally existed and became what is enough to fully explain that, but it seems apparent to me that a complex consciousness and self-awareness must have existed which was capable of causing the arrangement and subsequent arrangements we call the singularity or Big Bang -which was not some random accident, but an intent to cause an environment and life within it.
That is not denying evolution, but considering what must have evolved first from that which "always" existed.
We see minor selves evolving from an already-complex environment -but it is at least just as likely that an overall self -"I AM THAT I AM" -initially existed/self-evolved which is both life itself and its environment.
To me, at least, it seems absolutely necessary given that which has happened and the state which now exists.
If you are referring to the evolution of life on earth, some creatures do not have a complex consciousness or self-awareness, but do sense certain things and react to those things as a simple self.
Life on earth began within an environment which was already complex, but if there was an initial original evolution of all things, the beginning would have been the most simple state possible -but complex enough to allow for all that now is.
A consciousness requires an arrangement of something -as does self-awareness -and different arrangements allow for different types and levels of such.
A fish is conscious and self-aware, but not in as complex an arrangement as man, for example. Man is conscious and self-aware, but not perfectly self-aware because man is not able to sense and keep track of the exact state of every part of the self, because man's arrangement does not allow for it.
Certain arrangements must be preceded by certain levels of consciousness and self-awareness, and consciousness and self-awareness exist by arrangement.
If the whole of everything is considered to be a self -a self-same thing -then it definitely has complex interaction, complex arrangement -and apparently complex consciousness and self-awareness based on the present arrangement of things and what must have preceded the present arrangement.
I don't know the exact nature of that which originally existed and became what is enough to fully explain that, but it seems apparent to me that a complex consciousness and self-awareness must have existed which was capable of causing the arrangement and subsequent arrangements we call the singularity or Big Bang -which was not some random accident, but an intent to cause an environment and life within it.
That is not denying evolution, but considering what must have evolved first from that which "always" existed.
We see minor selves evolving from an already-complex environment -but it is at least just as likely that an overall self -"I AM THAT I AM" -initially existed/self-evolved which is both life itself and its environment.
To me, at least, it seems absolutely necessary given that which has happened and the state which now exists.
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Whether deterministic or not, a created consciousness will be controlled by the process that created it.
Is this an evidence of creation of consciousness or it is an evidence of evolution of life forms (body-minds)?
I hold, following the teaching of Vedanta, that consciousness is the foundation on which names-forms come and go, depending on wish/desire. Consciousness is like gold which is noble and never changes but lends itself to various names-forms. This is also more or less the teaching in all religions. It is borne by mediation experience of masters and also the our forms in sleep, dream, and waking states. The consciousness is not these changing forms but it is that which is unchanging witness of these three states of existence.
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Altfish
Veteran Member
I haven't said it wasn't a product of nature (natural selection and evolution). I just said it wasn't "just kind of coincidence".
The likes of Dennett and Minsky have proposed preliminary explanations for the origin of consciousness.
I'm not even sure it matters which came first and we may never know for sure. To my mind consciousness has to come first because unless you are conscious could you have any senses?
Pudding
Well-Known Member
Apologize i don't understand what message you wish to convey in this post of your nor your post #46.
I should have ask first before comment on your post.
gnostic
The Lost One
That's really depends on how you would individually define sense and consciousness.
If you are going to define consciousness as something "transcendent" or "divine", that exist without mind or brain, then I have nothing to say...
...well, nothing nice to say that don't involve swearing or cursing.
Sapiens
Polymathematician
Claim:
Falsification:
Backpedal:
Falsification:
I am not conscious almost every night, yet somehow I have survived.
Advice:
Keep on flailing, someday, by random process, you may get it right.
Falsification:
Backpedal:
More backpedal:
Even more backpedal:
Even more backpedal:
Even more backpedal:
Falsification:
I am not conscious almost every night, yet somehow I have survived.
Advice:
Keep on flailing, someday, by random process, you may get it right.
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Pudding
Well-Known Member
Aware - having knowledge or perception of a situation or fact.
Perception - the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
Baby aware of the surrounding.
Baby can see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
So keep sleeping and see for how long you can survive.
We're discussing, why that disturbs you?
Are you saying rocks are body-mind life forms?
Sapiens
Polymathematician
No need, your claim is falsified as soon as I fall asleep, so much so that now you have to weasel your claims. Bad form my boy.
Because discussion without intellectual rigor is a waste of everyone's time.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
We aren't talking about survival in the short terms.
So you're worried about people's time here.
Sapiens
Polymathematician
Classic ... you do a faceplant and then pretend by trying to amend your mistake(s) without admission. Is that not rather dishonest?We aren't talking about survival in the short terms.
So you're worried about people's time here.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
God is incomparable to us, we believe that God exists and we can't compare God to anything that we know.