Which evolved first, consciousness or senses

[idav]

Appears to what? To know something to be appearing, you require consciousness.
...

Your just quote mining now and taking my statement out of context.

Consciousness is the retaining of things sensed which is not a default state for organisms.

 

[atanu]

Your just quote mining now and taking my statement out of context.

I am not ...at least not intentionally.

Consciousness is the retaining of things sensed which is not a default state for organisms.

This is odd. I gave you the definition of consciousness that I was using. And then you say this. Then what is memory? I thought retaining of experience/learning is memory.

And without consciousness how can things be 'sensed'?
...

 

[idav]

This is odd. I gave you the definition of consciousness that I was using. And then you say this. Then what is memory? I thought retaining of experience/learning is memory.

And without consciousness how can things be 'sensed'?
...

Yup I described memory.

Because organisms can sense things in real time without retaining anything. Thats more a simplistic typle of awareness. Our consciousness uses several types of memory for our level of complexity. The mimosa plant can utilize long term memory but I don't think it is conscious, at least not in the traditional sense of the word, it is very much a reactionary type of memory.

Sensing at the most will get an organism reaction to environments via cause and effect, there needs to be more. Single celled organisms can learn but I don't think they have full blown consciousness either.

This article calls the form of memory single cells have "habituation, a form of rudimentary learning"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160427081533.htm

 

[crossfire]

Buddhism considers mind to be one of the six sense-bases. Mind senses ideas, just as the nose senses rarefied molecular mixture as smell.

 

[idav]

Buddhism considers mind to be one of the six sense-bases. Mind senses ideas, just as the nose senses rarefied molecular mixture as smell.

I do understand the mind to be an internal sensory, in addition to the five major external senses.

 

[atanu]

Yup I described memory.

Because organisms can sense things in real time without retaining anything. Thats more a simplistic typle of awareness. Our consciousness uses several types of memory for our level of complexity. The mimosa plant can utilize long term memory but I don't think it is conscious, at least not in the traditional sense of the word, it is very much a reactionary type of memory.

Memory is a function of mind. Yes that requires consciousness.

Sensing at the most will get an organism reaction to environments via cause and effect, there needs to be more. Single celled organisms can learn but I don't think they have full blown consciousness either.

Strange. What is full blown consciousness? And what is half blown consciousness? How can any discussion proceed like this?

1. The word consciousness is originally derived from the Latin con (with) and scire (to know) -- that with which to know or that with which one knows. Below is the Merriam Webster's definition.

1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
c : awareness; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3: the totality of conscious states of an individual
4: the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness
5: the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes
​

2. According to Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, the sentience itself is consciousness.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

"The words “conscious” and “consciousness” are umbrella terms that cover a wide variety of mental phenomena. Both are used with a diversity of meanings, and the adjective “conscious” is heterogeneous in its range, being applied both to whole organisms—creature consciousness—and to particular mental states and processes—state consciousness (Rosenthal 1986, Gennaro 1995, Carruthers 2000)."
​

3. I had already explained the meaning of Consciousness in Vedanta as "That which gives rise to mind" or "That which gives rise to knowing" in post 144. This includes the 'transcendental beyond mind source of knowing'.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...iousness-or-senses.187769/page-8#post-4771495​

...............

So, I will just stop here. To 'sense' the external and internal worlds without possessing consciousness is not possible in my understanding.

 

[viole]

What a scientific mistake that i did, please explain?

The mistake of assuming that the part of the nervous system responsible for senses perception and the part responsible for conscious realizations are independent. Or that they developed independently.

Plus the arrogance (sorry, but it is) of assuming that science can really be in trouble because of your chicken egg dilemmas.

What is more likely: that virtually all scientists are obviously wrong because of your observation, or that you do not possess enough knowledge about the subject to even make an educated guess?

Ciao

- viole

 

[FearGod]

The mistake of assuming that the part of the nervous system responsible for senses perception and the part responsible for conscious realizations are independent. Or that they developed independently.

And which part is responsible for our consciousness and how it works in harmony with our senses, what scientists say about it.

Plus the arrogance (sorry, but it is) of assuming that science can really be in trouble because of your chicken egg dilemmas.

You remind me that no one should refute an Islamic scholar, if he says disbelievers should die then we should believe that he's right,
Why, because he's a scholar., Ah yes yes yes, science is different than religion.

What is more likely: that virtually all scientists are obviously wrong because of your observation, or that you do not possess enough knowledge about the subject to even make an educated guess?

What scientists say about the relation between senses and our consciousness in the evolution process?

 

[FearGod]

Yup I described memory.

Because organisms can sense things in real time without retaining anything. Thats more a simplistic typle of awareness. Our consciousness uses several types of memory for our level of complexity. The mimosa plant can utilize long term memory but I don't think it is conscious, at least not in the traditional sense of the word, it is very much a reactionary type of memory.

Sensing at the most will get an organism reaction to environments via cause and effect, there needs to be more. Single celled organisms can learn but I don't think they have full blown consciousness either.

This article calls the form of memory single cells have "habituation, a form of rudimentary learning"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160427081533.htm

You said "our consciousness uses"
How it uses and how it works?

 

[idav]

You said "our consciousness uses"
How it uses and how it works?

Long term memory works by having the other memories repeat several times. Other memory types are kinda short lived.

http://www.human-memory.net/types.html

 

[idav]

Memory is a function of mind. Yes that requires consciousness.



Strange. What is full blown consciousness? And what is half blown consciousness? How can any discussion proceed like this?

1. The word consciousness is originally derived from the Latin con (with) and scire (to know) -- that with which to know or that with which one knows. Below is the Merriam Webster's definition.

1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
c : awareness; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3: the totality of conscious states of an individual
4: the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness
5: the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes
​

2. According to Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, the sentience itself is consciousness.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

"The words “conscious” and “consciousness” are umbrella terms that cover a wide variety of mental phenomena. Both are used with a diversity of meanings, and the adjective “conscious” is heterogeneous in its range, being applied both to whole organisms—creature consciousness—and to particular mental states and processes—state consciousness (Rosenthal 1986, Gennaro 1995, Carruthers 2000)."
​

3. I had already explained the meaning of Consciousness in Vedanta as "That which gives rise to mind" or "That which gives rise to knowing" in post 144. This includes the 'transcendental beyond mind source of knowing'.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...iousness-or-senses.187769/page-8#post-4771495​

...............

So, I will just stop here. To 'sense' the external and internal worlds without possessing consciousness is not possible in my understanding.

Because atanu, a plant is not conscious, do you agree? Try to address the arguement rather than playing semantiics, I already know I disagree with your definition of consciousness.

 

[FearGod]

Long term memory works by having the other memories repeat several times. Other memory types are kinda short lived.

http://www.human-memory.net/types.html

Why we act and respond differently while having the same type memory?

 

[idav]

Why we act and respond differently while having the same type memory?

What do you mean? We all act pretty human but some have better memory than others. Sometimes I wish I had photographic memory like some folks, sometimes I think it would be quite the burden.

 

[FearGod]

What do you mean? We all act pretty human but some have better memory than others. Sometimes I wish I had photographic memory like some folks, sometimes I think it would be quite the burden.

Do you believe and think that our behaviors are dependent on our memories?

 

[idav]

Do you believe and think that our behaviors are dependent on our memories?

What is fascinating is all the various issues people can have with there memories which show us how fragile our realities really are and prove the types of memory we have. Various types of amnesia will most certainly change your personality. Our self image is dependent on what we remember.

 

[FearGod]

What is fascinating is all the various issues people can have with there memories which show us how fragile our realities really are and prove the types of memory we have. Various types of amnesia will most certainly change your personality. Our self image is dependent on what we remember.

Do some people kill because of their memories?

 

[atanu]

Because atanu, a plant is not conscious, do you agree?

How do you know? What is your criteria? And how is that relevant?

The point is "I am conscious" and this consciousness is not created. It is free and objective.

Try to address the arguement rather than playing semantiics, I already know I disagree with your definition of consciousness.

I hope you will avoid these.

I gave the root meaning, a Merriam definition, a Standford Enclyclopedia of Philosophy's definition and a Vedantic understanding. Which you differ from? And what is the definition that you follow?

 

[idav]

Do some people kill because of their memories?

What are you trying to get at?

How do you know? What is your criteria? And how is that relevant?

Its relevant if a plant has senses but no consciousness.

 

[psychoslice]

In our very early evolution, consciousness would have been first, then because of being consciousness of our surroundings,our senses would have slowly developed to understand more about our surroundings.

 

[FearGod]

What are you trying to get at?

Why some people are bad enough to kill? how you relate it to their memories.