Which evolved first,hearing or speaking

[FearGod]

"
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A century-old mystery about how ancient freshwater fishes breathe has finally been put to rest, thanks to a study published last week in Nature Communications by a team of ichthyologists and me.

The fishes in question—Polypterus and related species—have tiny holes in the top of their heads called spiracles, and we showed how a small valve opens a bony lid over these spiracles to allow air to be sucked in and pumped out each time the fish surfaces.

And strangely enough, those same holes allowing the fish to breathe were modified through evolution to become eustachian tubes, which enable us humans to hear—but more about that later."


Evolution of hearing: Air-breathing fish adaptations turned into eustachian tubes.

I did know about these info, but what about speech or producing sound.

 

[shawn001]

I did know about these info, but what about speech or producing sound.

I would take it your talking about a language as speech yes?

and with sound, just sound or sound as a form of communication?

Some mechanism of hearing or sensing, would have to come first. But before that even different ways to communicate.

Researchers Closer to Understanding the Evolution of Sound Production in Fish

VCU News

Of course we know Humans have language and although we don't understand it yet, dolphins, orcas ,whales have very complex sounds for communication. Other animals have ways of communication by sound or gestures, all kinds of ways.

I remember something about some river dolphins could do echo location sounds at very the same time they were also communicating with each other. But would have to look into it.

These are very complex questions for a lot of reasons, especially because sounds are vibrations and they propagate differently through different mediums, they are not black and white questions and there might not be a "first" organism like you might think.

 

[shawn001]

This has information though on Language and symbols in early and modern humans just for the info.


Communicating with color
By 350,000 years ago

Illustration of an ancient child burial. Image courtesy of Karen Carr Studio.

Ancient Burials
By 100,000 years ago

Child burial

24,000 years ago

Expressing identity
By 100,000 years ago


Recording information
By 77,000 years ago


Information or decoration?


Creating paintings and figurines
By 40,000 years ago

By this time, humans were creating two- and three-dimensional images of the world around them. By 17,000 years ago, they had developed all the major representational techniques including painting, drawing, engraving, sculpture, ceramics, and stenciling. Working on stone, ivory, antler, and occasionally clay, they created imaginative and highly complex works of art.


Do you see a human head and body on the engraved stone to the right? Scientific studies show that humans deepened the natural grooves on this stone and smoothed planes and curves to create an image. It may be one of the earliest representations of a human figure.


When Did Humans Start Writing?
By around 8,000 years ago, humans were using symbols to represent words and concepts. True forms of writing developed over the next few thousand years.

●Cylinder seals were rolled across wet clay tablets to produce raised designs.

●Cuneiform symbols stood for concepts and later for sounds or syllables.





When Did Humans Start Talking?
Scientists are not sure. Spoken language does not fossilize, and there are few clues about when our ancestors began to use complex language to communicate.

However, making and using some of the objects here, which date back 350,000 years, involved complex behaviors that probably required language.

Spoken language became possible when the voice box dropped lower in the throat. Image courtesy of Karen Carr Studio.

Benefits and Costs of Talking


Benefits

Spoken language is essential to modern human cultures. We use language to communicate in a complex, ever changing world.

As our bodies evolved for speech, the voice box dropped lower in the throat. The area above the vocal chords lengthened, enabling us to make a wide variety of sounds.

Costs

When the voice box dropped to make speech possible, it became impossible to swallow and breathe at the same time. Food could get stuck in the larynx and cause choking.

Because human babies do not have a lowered voice box, they can breathe while nursing like other mammal infants.

Language & Symbols | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Which first evolved and which organism ?

Hearing. Being able to sense vibrations in the air, or more likely water, was one of the first senses that we ever obtained. It was developed out of highly developed touch sensory nerves. The ability to speak with anything close to what we would call language is estimated to be between 100,000 and 300,000 years ago. The origin to our ear is found earliest in Tetrapods. There were ears prior but they were vastly different to our own. Tetrapods were first found starting roughly 395 million years ago.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

It does. And it comes and goes. I can taste things, so it's not complete anosmia. I can remember smells, so I must have lost the sense at some time in the past, but I don't know when.

Lost mine in a car accident, steering column cored out the olfactory bulbs, so total
anosmia ,,, and the memory of smells has now gone too .. so eating has become
a tasteless chore ... no wonder i am so skinny

 

[philbo]

Is this an "if a tree falls in the forest with nobody there to hear, does it make a sound?" sort of question?

Producing sounds for communication wouldn't have been much of an evolutionary advantage if nothing were able to hear them; strikes me that if nothing can hear, it can't even be called "communication" as that implies a message has to be received as well as sent.

 

[FearGod]

Lost mine in a car accident, steering column cored out the olfactory bulbs, so total
anosmia ,,, and the memory of smells has now gone too .. so eating has become
a tasteless chore ... no wonder i am so skinny

Do you mean by tasteless as no flavor at all but can you taste sweet and salt but still with no flavour ?

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Do you mean by tasteless as no flavor at all but can you taste sweet and salt but still with no flavour ?

Yes, Salty, sweet, sour and bitter, from the taste buds, but no nuance of flavour
which comes from the olfactory process ...
So i over salt, over spice, and over sweeten most of my food ...
however i have found making it look nice on the plate helps with perceived appetite.

 

[NoX]

I have no knowledge about the issue but logically, hearing should be the first. Speaking is something done consciously but hearing maybe considered as a kind of feeling sense and even the even the most primitive livings have feeling senses.

 

[FearGod]

Hearing is an advantage for survival and hence it was naturally selected, but what if speaking( was evolved first, will it be selected regardless of hearing or it won't be selected.

What do you think ?

 

[Jainarayan]

Hearing is an advantage for survival and hence it was naturally selected, but what if speaking( was evolved first, will it be selected regardless of hearing or it won't be selected.

What do you think ?

This question has been asked and answered numerous times. It's not a matter of thinking or believing, it's a matter of fact: hearing evolved in countless species millions of years ago. Speech evolved only in humans about 150,000 years ago +/- a few millennia. And actually hearing is not necessary for survival. Snakes cannot hear, they can only detect vibrations. Snakes have done pretty well surviving. Fish cannot hear either, neither can amphibians. They are all among the oldest surviving species on the planet.

 

[FearGod]

This question has been asked and answered numerous times. It's not a matter of thinking or believing, it's a matter of fact: hearing evolved in countless species millions of years ago. Speech evolved only in humans about 150,000 years ago +/- a few millennia. And actually hearing is not necessary for survival. Snakes cannot hear, they can only detect vibrations. Snakes have done pretty well surviving. Fish cannot hear either, neither can amphibians. They are all among the oldest surviving species on the planet.

Not only humans can talk but animals have their own languages, of course not as complex as humans have.

 

[Jainarayan]

Not only humans can talk but animals have their own languages, of course not as complex as humans have.

Which evolved long after hearing.

 

[FearGod]

Which evolved long after hearing.

So they can survive without the need for talking or producing sounds.

 

[Jainarayan]

So they can survive without the need for talking or producing sounds.

I have yet to hear a snake do a rap song. And not all snakes hiss.

 

[viole]

And which organism first to evolve the ability to produce sound ?

Many predators emit sounds, by moving, or moving things for instance.

So, I would say hearing came first.

Ciao

- viole

 

[FearGod]

I have yet to hear a snake do a rap song. And not all snakes hiss.

But the ants doing it louder.

Getting it off their chest: Study reveals how ants talk to each other | Daily Mail Online

 

[FearGod]

Many predators emit sounds, by moving, or moving things for instance.

So, I would say hearing came first.

Ciao

- viole

True, but the question why the ability to produce sound were naturally selected and long after hearing, natural selection doesn't have the answer for it.

 

[Jainarayan]

But the ants doing it louder.

Getting it off their chest: Study reveals how ants talk to each other | Daily Mail Online

Could you spell out exactly what you're trying to arrive at in this quest (aka thread)? I just see wet spots on the tree going up higher and higher.

 

[Jainarayan]

True, but the question why the ability to produce sound were naturally selected and long after hearing, natural selection doesn't have the answer for it.

Vibrations. Sound is nothing more than vibrations in the air, and hearing is nothing more than one method of detecting those vibrations. Remember the snakes? They "hear" by vibrations registering in their brains via the bones in their jaws. Know why in old tv western shows and movies someone would put their ear to the ground on a railroad track? To feel the vibration of the oncoming train long before they can hear it.