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Which evolved first, the skull or the brain?

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
You seem to be trying to invent a problem that does not exist. Evolution proceeds by the reproduction and growth of succeeding generations. So if one individual has a bigger brain it will have a bigger skull to go with it and if it has more offspring they may inherit these features. The issue of one coming before the other does not ever arise. I find it incredible that you seem unable to grasp that. We have a proverb: you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

If what you mean is whether it was the growth of the skull or the growth of the brain that provided the original evolutionary advantage, that is a different question. Is that what you mean?

It isn't only one mutation that did the magic, can't you really understand,
how you can understand if you believe that our amazing brains have
been produced by the unconscious matter of earth.

I have to repeat

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.
Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I was referring to 2 legs vs 4 legs. I read it as we haven't evolved 4 legs because 2 legs work well enough. In that comparison our brains must haven't work well enough in the past or they wouldn't have evolved to be larger. We have one of the largest brains in the homo line, do they now work well enough?

Well, the size of our brains at birth contributes to maternal death rates, so it looks like there is some significant selection for larger brains.

Are they big enough yet? I don't know. Let's see how selection works going into the future.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Some researchers don't agree with you, if any

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.
Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.
Which part of what I presented to you did you disagree with and be specific?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It isn't only one mutation that did the magic, can't you really understand,
how you can understand if you believe that our amazing brains have
been produced by the unconscious matter of earth.

I have to repeat

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.
Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.
The only person talking of "mutations" and "magic" in this conversation is you. I am not talking about them, and you have - until now - not been asking about them.

It is very hard to pursue a rational discussion with someone who keeps changing the subject randomly. Tell me, is Arabic your first language? You are starting to remind me of some of the strange conversations I used to have when I lived in the Gulf.

But it looks as if this stuff you write about "the unconscious matter of the Earth" is what bothers you, for religious rather than scientific reasons. Since the whole of science is about finding natural explanations for natural phenomena, it is useless for you to base any argument on "the unconscious matter of the earth" not being responsible.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Some humans and other animals are born with brains too large for their skulls. they do not live to reproduce the trait dies out. Only those that are born with large brains and with skulls large enough to contain them,survive to reproduce.
Those that survive have a chance to take their place as a trend in evolution, provided a larger brain proves to be an advantage.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
The only person talking of "mutations" and "magic" in this conversation is you. I am not talking about them, and you have - until now - not been asking about them.

It is very hard to pursue a rational discussion with someone who keeps changing the subject randomly. Tell me, is Arabic your first language? You are starting to remind me of some of the strange conversations I used to have when I lived in the Gulf.

But it looks as if this stuff you write about "the unconscious matter of the Earth" is what bothers you, for religious rather than scientific reasons. Since the whole of science is about finding natural explanations for natural phenomena, it is useless for you to base any argument on "the unconscious matter of the earth" not being responsible.

I didn't change the subject, and when I say the matter of earth is unconscious then
I'm telling a fact if you believe otherwise then prove that the matter of earth
is conscious, what my language or origin has to do with our discussion, not all people
are alike where ever you go, or this also is unknown to you.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I didn't change the subject, and when I say the matter of earth is unconscious then
I'm telling a fact if you believe otherwise then prove that the matter of earth
is conscious, what my language or origin has to do with our discussion, not all people
are alike where ever you go, or this also is unknown to you.
Is Arabic your first language?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Some researchers don't agree with you, if any

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.

Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.
Uh huh. o_O
 
Last edited:

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Restricted growth, sometimes known as dwarfism, is a condition characterised by unusually short height.

There are 2 main types of restricted growth:

  • proportionate short stature (PSS) – a general lack of growth in the body, arms and legs
  • disproportionate short stature (DSS) – where the arms and legs are particularly short
Restricted growth (dwarfism)
So precious how that google knowledge works - pity you stopped reading where you did. The very next sentence:

"As well as being short, some people with restricted growth also have other physical problems, such as bowed legs or an unusually curved spine."


And a bit further down, re: DSS:

Causes of DSS
A rare genetic condition called achondroplasia is the most common cause of DSS.

It causes poor bone growth, resulting in short upper arms and thighs.

And were you to follow the link provided, you might have seen:

People with Achondroplasia have a range of characteristics including:

  • A near normal trunk length with shorter arms and legs
  • A large head with prominent forehead and flattened bridge of the nose
  • An increased curvature of the lower spine (lumbar lordosis)
  • Bowing of the lower legs
  • Possible crowded teeth
  • Short, broad feet and hands with separation between middle and ring fingers (the ‘trident’ hand)
  • Exceptionally flexible joints
  • Babies with Achondroplasia may develop motor skills and mobility more slowly than normal because of the combination of a heavier head and shorter arms and legs, but ultimately development is within the expected normal range.
Some medical complications associated with Achondroplasia are listed below. Note: most of these affect only a minority of people with the condition.

  • Glue ear / hearing impairment
  • Breathing problems in young children
  • Hydrocephalus
  • Spinal stenosis leading to compression of nerves to the limbs
  • Joint problems due to leg bowing
Achondroplasia is due to a change in the gene that codes for Fibroblast Growth Factor Receptor 3. (FGFR3). In almost all cases the single base change is exactly the same. The estimated prevalence is 1 in 25,000.​

But you didn't.

Hmmm....

Achondroplasia.... where have I heard that before.. Oh, yes - right here:

"There is a condition called achondroplasia - most people know it as dwarfism.
Dwarfism is characterized by such things as disproportionate limb length, characteristic facial features, reduced interphalageal joint number, etc.

Tell us - which of those was created first?
The shortened limbs? The shorter muscles and blood vessels need for shorter bones?

The facial features?"​

All of that from a single point mutation .

But you are utterly perplexed about the relationship between skull and brain size.... Hmmm....

Isn't it funny how ALL creatures with skulls, regardless of brain size, just happen to have skulls that their brains fit into...

But you are having this totally hard time understanding why when it comes to humans... Becaus eyou are ignorant of biology and a very disingenuous 'debater.'

Again, you have made a stupid parallel between skull and brain with limbs and arteries
in genetic disorders,
It would be so awesome if you actually had sufficient relevant education and knowledge in these areas - you simply cannot grasp the relevance of the analogy to achondroplasia I have been presenting to you.

One last time, then I am putting you on ignore for your repeated insolence -

In achondroplasia, a single point mutation alters development of the limbs and face such that they exhibit disproportionate growth, just like your link indicated. Had you read it.
The mutations that allowed for increased neocortical also allowed for the requisite cranial expansion.
That is how growth and development works.
Wow..... Those brains look TOTALLY different....
Of course they're different, otherwise your head will be like a monkey, are you?

Am I what?

Tell us all, with your expertise in brain anatomy, how, exactly, the human and chimp brains you pasted are different.
Right. I've only been teaching things like anatomy and evolution at the college level for decades. What do I know about this...
Many teachers and many doctors were stupid, so what
Coming from a person that has a hard time putting words together into recognizable sentences, and who has such a hard time understanding analogies and the like, that is rich. Thank you so much for your Christian humility.
Great comeback!
But do go on and explain how the skull has to get larger via evolution first, then later, the brain evolves to fill it up.

By plan and design, by science and not luck
Great explanation! I'm sure that level of detail would awe a 3rd grader.
I did - that is how I came to the most obvious conclusion - you do not do a very good job hiding the obvious fact that you do not understand anything about evolution.

Or biology.
It's really sad that you're a teacher, but good that you weren't a doctor otherwise many will
lose their life.:D

Oh boy! You really got me with your clever wit!

Onto ignore you go. The fewer trolls that clog my view the better.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Some researchers don't agree with you, if any

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.
Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.

The ironic projection is thunderous.

You just link to science showing how simplistic and naive your OP is, and you then go on to insult people that are far more educated and intelligent than yourself.

That seems to be the creationist way for most of you.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If evolution doesn't lead to perfection, then how come that our brains are fit in place?
Explain as of why, not just saying evolution doesn't make a perfect job, do you think
that humans aren't smart enough because evolution doesn't work perfectly?
Do you think that the birds fly because evolution doesn't work perfectly?

Evolution makes things just good enough to survive. Actually, good enough looks pretty silly sometimes.

To make an example, our minds are completely incapable of having an intuition of fundamental physics. Why? Because it is not useful for survival, and therefore did not evolve naturally to have an intuition which is useful only for a phD, but not to survive the day.

Religion and belief in gods is also probably the result of natural evolution. There seems to be survival advantage to misfire in favor of not existing agencies. And they also look like useful delusions, at least in the past.

So, no. There is no concept of perfection in evolution, since it is totally atheological and unguided. And many of its solutions are actually plain silly.

Ciao

- viole
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Human evolved with bigger skull that can be better deformed and allowing for the brain to get bigger,
compared to other primates.

Did the skull evolved first to get bigger and next the brain?
Did the brain evolved first to grow bigger then next the skull?
Did both evolved simultaneously؟

Do you think that both were designed to be fixed in place or it just happened
that both evolved simultaneously and it was perfect?
The evidence shows that they both evolved simultaneously. There aren't really turns in evolution. It all happens at the same time. And, we are still evolving, so there is nothing "fixed in place".
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I rely on science and not on your stupid ideas.
You do not rely on science. What I gave to you is not my ideas but what has been found in scientific research. It seems you only rely on what fits you want it to fit whether correct of not.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
It isn't only one mutation that did the magic, can't you really understand,
how you can understand if you believe that our amazing brains have
been produced by the unconscious matter of earth.

I have to repeat

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.
Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.
So you agree with the writers of the article about evolution. They are showing how mutations can have unexpected consequences at least in their presentation. But no it is not because of one mutation but that mutation may have had an effect on structural development. Clearly an idea presented and not proven and not to be interpreted as the proof. Other genetic changes occurred but interesting it would not take as many gene mutations as you think since we are genetically 96% identical with chimpanzees. You are again misunderstanding what you present.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
It isn't only one mutation that did the magic, can't you really understand,
how you can understand if you believe that our amazing brains have
been produced by the unconscious matter of earth.

I have to repeat

Researchers have proposed an answer to the vexing question of how the human brain grew so big. We may owe our superior intelligence to weak jaw muscles, they suggest.

A mutation 2.4 million years ago could have left us unable to produce one of the main proteins in primate jaw muscles, the team reports in this week's Nature1. Lacking the constraints of a bulky chewing apparatus, the human skull may have been free to grow, the researchers say.
Jaw-dropping theory of human evolution : Nature News

I wonder of some people in this forum when writing without knowing what they're writing about.
So you agree with the writers of the article about evolution. They are showing how mutations can have unexpected consequences at least in their presentation. But no it is not because of one mutation but that mutation may have had an effect on structural development. Clearly an idea presented and not proven and not to be interpreted as the proof. Other genetic changes occurred but interesting it would not take as many gene mutations as you think since we are genetically 96% identical with chimpanzees. You are again misunderstanding what you present.
 
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