A REAL CHRISTIAN
Member
Niether. God just used the same concept of a skull in alot of animals cause it works.
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Which evolved first, the skull or the brain?
- Thread starter FearGod
- Start date
Niether. God just used the same concept of a skull in alot of animals cause it works.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why don't you learn what you are arguing against?
The big question that I have of believers in creationism is why do you think that God lied?
Evolution used the same concept of a skull because it works.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Did you actually read the posts that explain the interaction of the brain and skull during development? It is all explained with our understanding of development and the intricate interaction between the too structures with clear evidence of the evolutionary development of both. Why add the unnecessary concept of god with all the associated questions of which god or which goddess and how to explain fossil record when all is explained by the theory of evolution?
sealchan
Well-Known Member
Classic false choice evolution argument...whichever came first, however you define them, they co-evolved together...there was probably no need for the size of one to coordinate in any special way with the size of the other as they are tuned to size with respect to each other naturally.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
So, in short, your god is severely lacking in creativity. Or is incredibly lazy.
Gotcha.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And incompetent. Just one example is the Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve. It is bad enough for us, but for giraffes it is a 15 foot detour:
Recurrent laryngeal nerve - Wikipedia
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Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
As for brain and skull in general, the brain evolved first.
The skull evolved later to cover it and protect the brain that was very sensitive and fragile.
As for humanoids, our brain were able to grow bigger as our skulls became bigger.
Our skulls were able to become bigger as our jaw muscles were weakened and this allowed to skull bones to grow further and the brain in respect to become larger.
Its not a step 1 step 2 form of evolution, rather a parallel process.
The skull allowed a bit more place, than the brain grew a bit and so forth.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It just so happens that I came accross a rather interesting article the other day that indirectly deals with exactly this.
It concerned a mutation in the MYH16 gene. It is broken in humans and still functional in other primates. This gene controls the growth of specific sets of muscles. So as said, this mutation broke this gene in the human lineage at some point.
Here's one of the muscles that is controlled by this gene:
Note how this muscles has shaped the skulls of the macaque and the gorilla. These are powerfull muscles too and it is easy to see how its continued presence would be a problem for brain enlargement. For the brain to be able to grow bigger, obviously the skull needs to accomodate for it. It needs to expand as well. The presence of that muscle, makes this accomodation very very difficult. Perhaps even impossible.
But it broke in humans. And somehow, this broken gene got fixed in the genome. This paved the way for skull reshaping and so many more things. Less powerfull jaw muscles also had important impact on life style. Less powerfull jaws = more difficult to chew certain kinds of food. This may even have played a role in why we started cooking food, as cooked food usually becomes softer and easier to chew.
It is very likely that this single mutation made our entire evolutionary path possible. That this mutation is what paved the way for our lineage to arrive at where we are now.
Having said all that, evolution is a gradual process. It's not like first it needs to develop a big skull which is half empty after which the brain can start growing to fill it up again.
It goes bit by bit.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
What controlled the skull from growing further?
tas8831
Well-Known Member
Tell us all about your background in biology.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Is that an answer to my question?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
I asked a rational question, he said that he read an article which
explains how a muscle controlled the skull from getting bigger
in the other apes, it should explain how the skull stopped from
growing further bigger in humans.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
This also shows how a simple mutation can create a significant change in divergence. Apparently the dietary environment for humans did not require the more powerful jaws so when the mutation occurred where it was not selected against and thus passed on giving those with the mutation an ultimate advantage. This is similar to another gene, the FOXP2 which affects language and brain development.
The FOXP2 gene is translated to make a protein called forkhead box P2 which is a transcription factor. It binds to the DNA in the region called the forkhead domain and regulates multiple genes including those active in the brain and probably plays an important role in growth neurons along with synaptic plasticity which is essential for learning and memory.
In 1995 a group was looking at a disorder in humans associated with language problems in family members with and without the disorder. They found there was a reduction in the size of caudate nucleus within the basal ganglia in family members with the disorder. The caudate nucleus is important for speech production. Latter it was discovered that the mutation was on the chromosome 7 (7q31). Further research showed there was a specific single point gene mutation (G to A nucleotide mutation on exon 14 changing the translated amino acid from and arginine to histidine) in those who were affected and that was not present in those who were not.
The FOXP2 is an extremely conserved section of DNA in terms of evolutionary change. The main form of the protein transcribed from this gene is 715 amino acids long and identical in chimpanzee, gorilla and rhesus monkey. There is only one amino acid difference between a chimpanzee and the FOXP2 of the mouse. Human FOXP2 however has too additional amino acid substitutions compared to the other apes thus separated from mice by three amino acids. Therefor in over 75 million years there has been only one change in the FOXP2 gene until about 6 million years ago when two more changes occurred in the human FOXP2 gene. This shows how single mutations can have extraordinary affects when they create and advantage in natural selection
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
You missed the whole point. The skull and brain are interconnected by complex signaling which has been discussed earlier and grow in combination. The issue of the gene mutation for mastication was that the heavy masticator muscles may have evolutionarily restricted the range of size in brain and skull due to the mechanics of the skull to support these muscles which also develop in synchrony by complex cellular signaling. This was not the only reason humans skulls and brains increased in sized over time but may have been a contributing factor. Other aspects other than the need for powerful jaws may have been a factor including a more energy rich diet with greater concentration of proteins.
There is an interesting observation in crows in reference to higher fat and protein diets associated with increased tool manufacturing. Thus diet can have a powerful effect on evolutionary changes.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
I didn't say what controlled the brain and the skull, but I said what controlled the skull
alone from further growing while no strong muscles to fit it in place?
tas8831
Well-Known Member
Wasn't meant to be, but your response answers mine.
You see, I find it a waste of time to try to explain things to people that lack the basic background to be able to understand the explanation.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
You don't have the answer, otherwise make an answer so the others will be convinced that
you made the right answer, if you don't want to waste your time then what you're here for?
tas8831
Well-Known Member
You first. I've not seen anything right from you in this thread. Asking silly 'questions' is not an answer, but an admission.
So you admit you know nothing of biology, yet start threads asking "questions" that you think score points for your position.
Typical.