Which existed first "something" or "nothing"?

[Thief]

I will reiterate that it is unwise to accept such a claim without proof.
Even as an adolescent I could see that.
It isn't a matter of whether or not I want to accept it, you've simply given me no valid reason to accept it.

Well, other than 'because I said so'.

If you want me to accept it on just that then I may need to kill 40 or so IQ points.
My brain simply just does not work that way.

faith requires no proving....see Webster's.

and I believe in cause and effect....
I suppose you do not.

 

[Deathbydefault]

faith requires no proving....see Webster's.

and I believe in cause and effect....
I suppose you do not.

I do indeed.
There is obvious evidence for many forms of cause and effect.

However, I do not entertain any such thing as "faith".
"Faith" is equivalent to "useless" in my mind.

 

[Thief]

I do indeed.
There is obvious evidence for many forms of cause and effect.

However, I do not entertain any such thing as "faith".
"Faith" is equivalent to "useless" in my mind.

so then.....the singularity is a mystery to you.....

science won't help.
it takes you there and then stops.

the actual question is.....
Spirit first?.....or substance?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

ok....but I recognize a transition...
at some point (I say, the point of singularity) God formed as WORD (see Genesis)...
He then pronounced ....IAM!...
which I consider to be synonymous to.......Let there be light!

If you want to believe this universe began as a singularity....nothing changes...all manifestations of God such as this universe have a beginning and an ending in time and besides this one, they are infinite in number in infinite space....God alone is eternal...

 

[Thief]

If you want to believe this universe began as a singularity....nothing changes...all manifestations of God such as this universe have a beginning and an ending in time and besides this one, they are infinite in number in infinite space....God alone is eternal...

If the creation fails ....the affirmation of .....I AM!.....fails.

I seen science make report of two possibilities.....
the universe will continue to expand, or not.
either way, the cosmos will fade out, or collapse and what we call the universe will be gone.

I say as you do.
God is eternal.

but what of Him....should His handiwork fail?

 

[Deathbydefault]

so then.....the singularity is a mystery to you.....

science won't help.
it takes you there and then stops.

the actual question is.....
Spirit first?.....or substance?

Well, you see, unlike faith, science uses evidence.
scientists take what they are given, what they can observe, and make the most of it.

It isn't as though it's some huge mystery that we can never really revolve around.
It's the exact opposite, it's just simply something we don't know yet.
Scientists create tons of ideas and paths that map around what we don't know.
The best one gets put at the tops, and is hopefully updated constantly.

There is no 'oh, it was probably just this'.
"Science is knowledge, everything else is philosophy" -Damn I wish I remembered who said that.
-
If you want to just take stuff on faith then that's all you, not my concern how you think.
I like everything explained in great detail, to know how it is all working.

But, to answer your question, I don't believe in spirits, so....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If the creation fails ....the affirmation of .....I AM!.....fails.

I seen science make report of two possibilities.....
the universe will continue to expand, or not.
either way, the cosmos will fade out, or collapse and what we call the universe will be gone.

I say as you do.
God is eternal.

but what of Him....should His handiwork fail?

How do you know God has not created universes like this one infinite times before and that there are not also an infinite number of them now beyond this one? God is not limited by the manifested creation...nor does your attempt to limit the omnipresence of God, the omniscience of God, and the eternal nature of God matter...

 

[idea]

....God alone is eternal...

So you believe it is impossible for anyone else to have "eternal" life? It's impossible to be eternally alive, if you are not already eternal...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So you believe it is impossible for anyone else to have "eternal" life? It's impossible to be eternally alive, if you are not already eternal...

No of course not, there are heavenly hosts...gods etc....that are eternal in spirit...but THAT in which they exist is God absolute... the manifested forms of God such as this universe however are always in change...

 

[Thief]

How do you know God has not created universes like this one infinite times before and that there are not also an infinite number of them now beyond this one? God is not limited by the manifested creation...nor does your attempt to limit the omnipresence of God, the omniscience of God, and the eternal nature of God matter...

multiple creations?.....
If the condensing theory holds....sure, why not...

But current observations hold the universe is expanding....and gaining SPEED!!!!!

it seems the current mode of reality will spread itself to extremes and fade into that Dark Energy
which science strongly suspects is there....
but can't prove it!!!!!!!

 

[Thief]

Well, you see, unlike faith, science uses evidence.
scientists take what they are given, what they can observe, and make the most of it.

It isn't as though it's some huge mystery that we can never really revolve around.
It's the exact opposite, it's just simply something we don't know yet.
Scientists create tons of ideas and paths that map around what we don't know.
The best one gets put at the tops, and is hopefully updated constantly.

There is no 'oh, it was probably just this'.
"Science is knowledge, everything else is philosophy" -Damn I wish I remembered who said that.
-
If you want to just take stuff on faith then that's all you, not my concern how you think.
I like everything explained in great detail, to know how it is all working.

But, to answer your question, I don't believe in spirits, so....

but science can believe what it cannot prove.
science can be sure....without the experiment.
(dark energy)

 

[Deathbydefault]

but science can believe what it cannot prove.
science can be sure....without the experiment.
(dark energy)

Like I said, they are mapping around the unknown.
They are taking the evidence they have been given and forming ideas.
Currently, the dark matter idea is the winning/leading idea in its section.
It may be replaced, it may be final. All we science buffs are concerned with is the evidence.

 

[Thief]

Well this science buff has spirit.
I suspect it is God's handiwork.
it's a winning idea.

 

[Deathbydefault]

That winning idea would get you kicked out of a quite a few labs, lol.
If you presented it as true, that is.

 

[Thief]

denial is futile.

Someone had to be First.
substance is not 'self' creating.
unless you want to abandon science and say....
substance has it's own volition!
(beware the gravel in your driveway!)

 

[Deathbydefault]

Someone had to be First.

Care to elaborate?

 

[leibowde84]

OK, I become specific:
[6:2]All praise belongs to Allah Who created the heavens and the earth and brought into being every kind of darkness and light; yet those who disbelieve set up equals to their Lord.
The Holy Quran : Chapter 6: Al-An`am الاٴنعَام

You can verify it, just open the Quran and look for chapter 6 verse 2.
Regards

The Quran is not verifiable, and you are, again, using circular reasoning. You are assuming your proposition in your evidence.

 

[leibowde84]

flip a coin....

If God is NOT the cause.....then all we are sure of by cause and effect may be bogus.

To say substance is self starting (even by a means we don't know).....
would declare substance AS self starting.
and dead things can beget life.

You dodged the question yet again. Assuming that there was a cause, why does it have to be God? Or, more specifically, the God of the Bible?

 

[Thief]

You dodged the question yet again. Assuming that there was a cause, why does it have to be God? Or, more specifically, the God of the Bible?

well not necessarily the God of Moses.....
but I happen to lean that way.

Moses did ask....the people will want to know Whose law this is.....

and God said....Tell them....I AM!
and they that understand will know Whose law this is.

I think of that God as Creator.
so of course....God did it.

 

[Thief]

Care to elaborate?

Regression is a simple line of thought.
reduce each generation.....someone had to be first.
reduce every spirit....Someone had to be First.