Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

[Trailblazer]

So where did the religion of the Egyptians come from?

Ancient Egyptian religion was a complex system of polytheistic beliefs and rituals which were an integral part of ancient Egyptian society. It centered on the Egyptians' interaction with many deities who were believed to be present in, and in control of, the world. Rituals such as prayers and offerings were efforts to provide for the gods and gain their favor. Formal religious practice centered on the pharaoh, the ruler of Egypt, who was believed to possess a divine power by virtue of their position. They acted as the intermediary between their people and the gods and was obligated to sustain the gods through rituals and offerings so that they could maintain order in the universe.

How was their religion different than many other polytheistic religions? How are these religions not a part of a progression toward modern religions?

Maybe they are part of the progression, I honestly don’t know. I am certainly no expert on history or religion; they have never been my interest. Geography, psychology and homeopathy are what I studied in college. Had I never been a Baha’i I do not think I would have any interest in religion at all. There are no other religions that I can logically accommodate in my mind. I doubt I would be thinking about God either if I was not a Baha’i. You talk a lot about religion, but I never hear you talk about God... Are you undecided about that too?

As an aside, I think that I was “guided” by God to become a Baha’i because I was not searching for any religion or for God at the time, I just stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith and determined it was true... I read a bunch of books but I had no doubts it was true and became a Baha’i in two weeks... I never found any reason to change my mind inn 48 years. It is just so obviously the Truth from God for this age because it all fits together and it accommodates all the other religions. Sure we do not believe in the man-made doctrines of other religions such as Christianity but that is because they did not come from God. Everything that originated from God is true, as this quote says:

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60​

How is their mythology not true but that of the "modern" religions is true? But then of course it is not. It is symbolic. So why then is the Egyptian and other similar religions of great empires not true in a symbolic way? And, somebody had to bring or develop these religious beliefs, why not a "prophet/manifestation"?

It could well be that one of the Prophets that Abdu’l-Baha talked about that come to every nation started these religions... I think that polytheism was part of the progression towards monotheism. Just because Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha do not mention certain Prophets or religions does not mean they are not true. The Bahai Faith is not like Christianity wherein we only believe what is in our scriptures. Shoghi Effendi said we should read eight non-Baha’i books for every Baha’i book we read and he did not mean fiction.

Like Baha'is attribute Hinduism to Krishna, but Hinduism is more than what Krishna taught and he didn't start it. It was here long before Krishna, and Hinduism has many polytheistic beliefs. So why reject what Egyptians believed but believe in Hinduism, which had similar polytheistic beliefs? For me, it's all a progression, and religions are all very much related. But, they are also very different. Even the "revealed" ones.

I agree. It is a progression and all these religions are very much related. Bahais cite Krishna as the Manifestation of God who started Hinduism but after that man changed what was originally revealed. That has happened to every religion that was ever revealed. The religion that the Prophet revealed is always changed by man so it is then no longer the religion of God, it is the religion of man. If you do not grasp that important concept you will never understand the Baha’i view.

“It is an indisputable fact that religions have always changed in the course of their long history. Religion, unless it has become a faith of the ‘dead letter’, is a living thing, and to be living means to assimilate, to absorb and incorporate foreign matter. All religions have done this, and the clear source of revelation has become a broad stream made up of many tributaries. In the course of their history all religions have incorporated beliefs and practices alien to them in essence and have thereby departed from their source, the revelation. The religious heritage has been constantly increased, while the revelation has been obscured by human misinterpretations and misunderstandings.”
(Udo Schaefer,The Light Shineth in Darkness: Studies in revelation after Christ, pl. 80)​

All ancient religions could very easily be man-made. And all their gods and prophets could be mere myths and legends. But, the religion still, to the believers, seemed true and was taught to the people as true. Moses you say was a manifestation, great. But, did he write the first five books of the Bible? If he did, then was it the truth or a myth that the world was created in six days? Was it myth or truth that there was a world-wide flood? Now, if Moses didn't write it, who did? But then, who wrote the rest of it? Not a manifestation. Maybe not even the prophets whose name is attached to the writing.

You are right, those ancient religions could have been man-made, or they could have been revealed by a Prophet of God. We just don’t know. The best we can say is that God allowed them to exist so there had to be a reason for that. Maybe they helped people evolve spiritually. Maybe that was necessary for them to believe these things that seem ridiculous to us now in the modern age.

I do not know who wrote the Old Testament but it was not Moses. Did Prophets of God actually write what was in the Old Testament? I don’t really know. Most of what is in these Books that seem like myths are probably myths. Baha’u’llah said to disregard them and move on so that is what I do.

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175​

So who then? I think very likely a spiritual leader. But ultimately, to the believer, it was God. It was God who inspired the people that wrote the words, therefore those words of the Word of God. Yet, even Baha'is question the authenticity and then they explain away difficult to believe events by saying those things were only "symbolic". But, my problem with that is, they are presented as historical fact. And, are believed by the followers of that religion as historical fact.

Why does it matter what they are presented as? Why does it matter what people believe? People believe all kinds of things and many of them are not true. It might be historical fact or not, or some might be factual and some symbolic. How can we know now? Has any scholar every made such a determination?

The Baha'i position allows Baha'is to say they accept the truth of that religion while they also can reject the things that they don't like. Which they then redefine in some figurative way. So was Moses a manifestation or a myth or a legend? You have to say a manifestation, because the Baha'i Faith say he was. But, the Baha'i Faith also say that many of the events surrounding his life, and all the things he supposedly wrote leading up to his life were "symbolic". Or, like I like to say, a myth.

So what is wrong with saying that Moses existed and was a Manifestation od God but not everything written in the Old Testament is literally true, because it was written by men and because it was intended to be symbolic?

And now, back to Isaiah, do you have a comment on the verses beyond Isaiah 7:14? I don't see how Baha'is or Christians can single out one verse and make it a prophecy about Jesus being born of a Virgin, when none of the rest of the signs given have anything to do with Jesus. So who do the rest of the signs pertain to? I think it was a kid, at the time of Isaiah. And, if that kid fulfilled the other signs, then he must have fulfilled the sign of being born of a "virgin" too... or maybe the word used there could and should be translated "young woman". What do you think?

I do not have a problem with the Virgin Birth because Shoghi Effendi confirmed that it happened and it was mystery of God we cannot understand. I won’t pretend that I know what anything else in that chapter means. It seems to be symbolic of something but I do not know of what.

 

[OtherSheep]

Babylon versus the God of the Bible.

I read a bunch of books but I had no doubts it was true and became a Baha’i in two weeks... I never found any reason to change my mind inn 48 years. It is just so obviously the Truth from God for this age because it all fits together and it accommodates all the other religions. Sure we do not believe in the man-made doctrines of other religions such as Christianity but that is because they did not come from God.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."[Exodus 20]

It's been like pulling teeth... but there it is... the division.
__________________________________

TB: "So you believe that these are the many things that Jesus meant the disciples could not bear?"

Everything Jesus said after John 16, yes... including the Book of Revelation, which you completely disregard... for obvious reasons.

TB: "The SAME Bible verses can be interpreted very differently. Why do you think that YOUR interpretation is right and mine is wrong? Who gave you authority to interpret the Bible inerrantly?"

When your dude argues against the words that Jesus has said, by following that dude who came in his own name, your interpretation ...as you call it... is dead wrong. That tends to happen when people don't use the Bible in context to interpret itself.

TB: "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is detestation of the light of God, the divine perfections."

The Greek word blasphemia is a compound word meaning "hurtful rumor."
Made-up definitions won't work when the definitions are well-known. Look it up, TB.

Now, in context
Matthew 12:24 "But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, 'This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.'"
12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God is come unto you. ... 31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
In other words, Jesus says:
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is lying about the identity of the Spirit of God.

And the same thing is happening in these next two quotes.

TB: "The Comforter is not the Holy Spirit."
TB: "Baha’u’llah was the Comforter"

John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on Me; Of righteousness, because I go to My Father, and ye see Me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Your comfortable guy didn't promote belief in Jesus, and neither do you, TB.
You've done nothing but lie about Jesus to promote your false christ.

TB: "Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever promise to return."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

Matthew 24:5, 26-28 "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ... Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: behold, in the secret chambers; believe not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

________________________
1John.4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

 

[Trailblazer]

Babylon versus the God of the Bible

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." [Exodus 20]

It's been like pulling teeth... but there it is... the division.

Jesus is not the God of the Bible. There is only One God, the God that created the Universe and all that is therein. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God. God cannot become a man.

There it is alright, God saying that there shall be no other Gods but Him... And so what did Christians do, they made Jesus into a God. As I am sure you know Jews consider this blasphemy. Taking Jewish scriptures and applying them to Jesus retroactively is what the Church did.

TB: "So you believe that these are the many things that Jesus meant the disciples could not bear?"
OS: Everything Jesus said after John 16, yes... including the Book of Revelation, which you completely disregard... for obvious reasons.

How do you know that in John 16:12 Jesus was referring to everything Jesus said after John 16 ?

I do not disregard the Book of Revelation at all. I addressed it in Post #99.
I just interpret it DIFFERENTLY than you do. Who gave you the authority to interpret the Bible? Do you think you know what it means better than other Christians? Why do you think you know what the Book of Revelation means and I don’t?

When your dude argues against the words that Jesus has said, by following that dude who came in his own name, your interpretation ...as you call it... is dead wrong. That tends to happen when people don't use the Bible in context to interpret itself.

The Bible does not interpret itself. People read words on the pages and they assign meanings to them. You assign different meanings to the words than other Christians or Baha'is assign.

Why is my interpretation dead wrong? Why is your interpretation right? You think my interpretation is wrong because it means that Jesus is not going to return. But what you interpret and what I interpret does not change reality. Baha’u’llah was either the return of the Christ Spirit promised by Jesus or not. That is ALL that matters. You can try to disprove that by interpreting the Bible to mean what you think it means, what you want it to mean, but you cannot find any verses in the NT where Jesus promise to return because they are not there. Also, you cannot disprove the fact that the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah as noted in the book Thief in the Night.

The Greek word blasphemia is a compound word meaning "hurtful rumor."
Made-up definitions won't work when the definitions are well-known. Look it up, TB.

Defining one word and not looking at the whole context of the two verses does not fly.

Now, in context, below is what those two verses mean. The Son of man and the manifestation refer to Jesus. One can become awakened if they remain far from Jesus but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is detestation of the light of God, hating God. It is impossible to come near to God if you hate God because you are rejecting God and God never forces His Love upon anyone. That is what cannot be forgiven.

31: EXPLANATION OF BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT

Question.—“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”—(Matt. 12:31–32)

Answer.— If a soul remains far from the manifestation, he may yet be awakened; for he did not recognize the manifestation of the divine perfections. But if he loathe the divine perfections themselves—in other words, the Holy Spirit—it is evident that he is like a bat which hates the light.

This detestation of the light has no remedy and cannot be forgiven—that is to say, it is impossible for him to come near unto God. This lamp is a lamp because of its light; without the light it would not be a lamp. Now if a soul has an aversion for the light of the lamp, he is, as it were, blind, and cannot comprehend the light; and blindness is the cause of everlasting banishment from God...” Some Answered Questions, pp. 127-128​

Now, in context
Matthew 12:24 "But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, 'This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.'"
12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God is come unto you. ... 31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
In other words, Jesus says:
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is lying about the identity of the Spirit of God.

No, that is just a distorted interpretation of what those verses mean. I just looked the meaning of those verses on several Christian websites and no website had any such interpretation of those verses. They concur that they mean hating or cursing God.

The term blasphemy may be generally defined as “defiant irreverence.” The term can be applied to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things relating to God. Blasphemy is also attributing some evil to God or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him. What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?​

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that emanates from God, like rays of light from the sun. I am not lying about the Holy Spirit.

And the same thing is happening in these next two quotes.

TB: "The Comforter is not the Holy Spirit."
TB: "Baha’u’llah was the Comforter"

John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on Me; Of righteousness, because I go to My Father, and ye see Me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Your comfortable guy didn't promote belief in Jesus, and neither do you, TB.
You've done nothing but lie about Jesus to promote your false christ.

I never lied about Jesus. Baha’u’llah certainly did promote Jesus and He also fulfilled John 15:26 in doing so.

KJ21 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth who proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

ASV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:​

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

Baha’u’llah referred to Jesus as the Spirit of God on more than one occasion while addressing the kings and rulers and the leaders of the Christian Church, including Pope Pius IX.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? (John 14:28). Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." (John 16:13). And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away. Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191​

And what do you think happened after Baha’u’llah addressed all the kings and rulers and the leaders of the Christian and Muslim faiths? They all fell from power just as he told them they would for rejecting Him. All this is in recorded history so it cannot be denied.

(Continued on next post...)

 

[Trailblazer]

TB: "Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever promise to return."

OS: John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

If Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples, and Jesus was going to receive them onto Himself where He was, Jesus would receive them where He was, in heaven, where there are many mansions. The disciples could not be on earth again because they were in heaven.

I will come again refers to the Spirit of Christ coming to earth again, not to Jesus in the same body returning to earth. What would come again is the Spirit of Christ, in the Person of Baha’u’llah. A physical body cannot return from heaven because physical bodies cannot exist in heaven since heaven is a purely spiritual world. When Jesus died His soul ascended to heaven and took on another form, a spiritual body that is comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm. Nobody ever comes back to earth once they ascend to heaven because they no longer have the physical body that is required to exist in the earth world.

Matthew 24:5, 26-28 "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ... Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: behold, in the secret chambers; believe not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Sure, there have been many false christs, but that does not mean that there was no true Christ.
Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back in the first person. It was always in the third person that Jesus spoke. He referred to the Son of man in the clouds and Christians just assumed that Jesus was referring to Himself, because Jesus was the Son of man. The caveat is that Jesus was not the only Son of man. Baha’u’llah was also the Son of man. Both Jesus and Baha’u’llah were the Son of man because both were symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

To explain in brief, Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence. Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

Matthew 24:27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.” (Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’. (The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. Infact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latterdays’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.” (Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said: “When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’” (The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

1. The king from the sunrise

Bahá’u’lláh came from Persia, which is to the East of Israel, but to the west of India. His ministry from the time of its beginning until his last days on earth was forty years. The prophets of Syria and Palestine foretold the coming of the promised Messiah from the East. The prophets and seers from India and the Far East, said that he would appear in the West. Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh lies in between these two, and fulfils the requirements of each.

In the book of Enoch, it is prophesied that the Messiah of the last days shall come from the East of Israel, and that He shall come from the land now known as Persia. Enoch foretells: “And in those days the angels will assemble, and turn their heads towards the East, toward the people of Parthia and Medea, in order to excite the kings, and that a spirit of disturbance came over them, and disturbed them from off their thrones.” (Enoch 56:5). Parthia and Medea make up what is now the land of Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh. The Jewish oracles, the Sibylline books, also mention the coming of the Messiah from the East, saying:

“And then from the sunrise God shall send a king who shall give every land relief from the bane of war … nor shall he do these things by his own counsel, but in obedience to the good ordinances of the Mighty God.” (cited in The Messianic idea in Israel, p. 376).

Joseph Klausner, in The Messianic idea in Israel, writes: “The ‘king from the sunrise’ is, without any doubt, the King-Messiah.”

The prophet Ezekiel also foretold that the Messiah would come to the Holy Land, Israel, from the East. He even gave the title by which He would be known in that day: The Glory of God [or the Glory of the Lord]. Ezekiel recorded his vision of the last days, saying: “And behold, the Glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east…” (Ezekiel 43:2).

In another place, Ezekiel says: “And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”(Ezekiel 43:4).

I had already learned that the name Bahá’u’lláh was Persian, and when translated into English means, The Glory of God or The Glory of the Lord. His herald was called the Báb. This is also Persian, and translated into English means, The Gate.

The Báb was the Gate by which Bahá’u’lláh, the Glory of God, entered into the hearts of men. Bahá’u’lláh had come to Israel in exile from Persia which is to the East. I was more than satisfied by my findings. I learned that Bahá’u’lláh had completed the prophesies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, and many secular prophesies as well—all of which pointed to the time and the place from which the Shepherd of the day of the ‘one fold’ would come.

I marked the first proof: Fulfilled.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 109-111​

1John.4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

There are two parts to that verse. It says to try the spirits to determine whether they are of God or not, but certainly not many Christians have followed that advice since they ignore anyone who could have been of God. Of course He warned against false prophets as He did in Matthew 7:16-20, but He also said 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. That verse indicates that there are indeed true prophets.

 

[2ndpillar]

There are two parts to that verse. It says to try the spirits to determine whether they are of God or not, but certainly not many Christians have followed that advice since they ignore anyone who could have been of God. Of course He warned against false prophets as He did in Matthew 7:16-20, but He also said 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. That verse indicates that there are indeed true prophets.

Matthew 7:12-26 is about the synopsis of the "Law and the Prophets" , and the "narrow gate" that leads to "life" and the "wide" "gate" that leads to "destruction". The "narrow gate" would be to "act upon" "these words of mine" (Yeshua), and the wide gate would be to follow the "false prophets" in "sheep's clothing". Per Zechariah 13:4, any so called "prophets" in "that day" (the day of the LORD), will be ashamed of their visions and prophesies. It is not until "in those days"/"after this", the "this" being "you will know that I am in the midst of Israel", after "I will remove the northern army from you", that "your sons and daughters will prophesy" (Joel 2:18-32).

 

[OtherSheep]

Jesus is not the God of the Bible. There is only One God, the God that created the Universe and all that is therein. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God. God cannot become a man.

And yet more division. People who don't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh are doomed.

Is it true that your bullah guy was muslim? Because Islam says the same thing.

Why do you think you know what the Book of Revelation means and I don’t?

Because you don't believe that Jesus is God.

 

[OtherSheep]

Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back in the first person. It was always in the third person that Jesus spoke. He referred to the Son of man in the clouds and Christians just assumed that Jesus was referring to Himself, because Jesus was the Son of man.

"Whom say ye that I am?"

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
16:15 He saith unto them, 'But whom say ye that I am?'
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, 'Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.'

The Jews knew what Son of God means

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Only Begotten Son of God

6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst.
8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
10:9 I am the door: by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.
11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus wasn't speaking about anyone but Himself.

Jesus 24:5 "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

There are two parts to that verse. It says to try the spirits to determine whether they are of God or not, but certainly not many Christians have followed that advice since they ignore anyone who could have been of God. Of course He warned against false prophets as He did in Matthew 7:16-20, but He also said 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. That verse indicates that there are indeed true prophets.

In Context

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work anomia.

Anomia means without law. Nomos means a specific Law which Jesus has confirmed in Matthew 5-7... the Mosaic law will not pass away until the first heaven and earth pass away... after the Millennium, according to the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

In other words, all of the without-law people are not doing the will of the Father contained in the commandments of God. This is the fruit by which you shall know them: anomia.

 

[OtherSheep]

[Dispensation = oikos-nomos = house law]
Dispensationalism = changing ages and laws.

Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change times and law: and power shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time."

Do you really believe that time stands still and that nothing ever needs to change

The change of Times-and-Laws is Dispensational heresy... for which I used to only blame Paul. But there is no dispensationalism in the Bible w/o Paul.

Jesus revealed a new message of personal salvation and new teachings and laws.

Jews rejected Jesus because He did not do what they were expecting

Nope, Jesus never changed the Law that God gave to Moses. He told His sheep that the marriage law, for example, was due to the Pharisaical hardness of their hearts. When Jesus speaks, He tells His sheep what the Law was in the beginning.

Because their Pharisees/teachers mis-taught them what to expect.

Matthew 23:13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."

Jesus’ words will not ever pass away. Did the Old Testament pass away when the New Testament was revealed? No, it was just a “new” Testament from God.

diatheke, Testament = Covenant

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee [Moses]; and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him."

Jeremias 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32 not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in My covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord. 33 For this is My covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people. 34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more."

Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

John 12:48 "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."

John 1:11 He came unto His own, and His own received him not. Matthew 15:24 "But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Mosaic Law, Written on the Heart

Matthew 5:27 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Jesus has spoken the words of the Law Written on the Heart, to His sheep.

Revelation 22:20
"He which testifieth these things saith, 'Surely I come quickly.'
'Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.'"

 

[Shaul]

One part of Isaiah that is recognized as messianic by both Jews and Christians is Chapter 11. It speaks of “those days” which are a key phrase signaling this is a messianic passage. In “those days” a root, a branch of David will appear. It also says that in those days there will be major changes such as universal peace, universal knowledge of G-d, and a returning of the tribes of Israel to the Promised Land. Clearly these things have not yet happened. Which is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was not the messiah ben David.

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 7:12-26 is about the synopsis of the "Law and the Prophets" , and the "narrow gate" that leads to "life" and the "wide" "gate" that leads to "destruction". The "narrow gate" would be to "act upon" "these words of mine" (Yeshua), and the wide gate would be to follow the "false prophets" in "sheep's clothing". Per Zechariah 13:4, any so called "prophets" in "that day" (the day of the LORD), will be ashamed of their visions and prophesies. It is not until "in those days"/"after this", the "this" being "you will know that I am in the midst of Israel", after "I will remove the northern army from you", that "your sons and daughters will prophesy" (Joel 2:18-32).

The narrow gate was Christianity when Christianity was new but Christianity is not new anymore... Obviously Christianity is not the narrow gate in the present age since many have now entered and one third of people in the world are Christians.

In the early days of Christianity there were only a few followers of Jesus and people said it was nonsense, but eventually Christianity grew to be recognized worldwide. The same thing will happen to the Baha’i Faith in time.

In this new age, the narrow gate is the Baha’i Faith and it is narrow because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning. That is why the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
​

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel. That is human nature.

Eventually it won’t matter how small the Baha’i Faith was in the beginning because in the distant future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah and enter through the same gate, the gate that leads to life. However, those that enter now will have a huge reward in this life and after they die, because they made the effort to look for the narrow gate and they had the courage to walk through it.

 

[2ndpillar]

The narrow gate was Christianity when Christianity was new but Christianity is not new anymore... Obviously Christianity is not the narrow gate in the present age since many have now entered and one third of people in the world are Christians.

There was no "Christianity" during the time of Yeshua's testimony. "Christianity" was the product of the false prophet Paul. One either enters into life in the here and now, for after one dies, it is a little late. Your Matthew 7 reference starts with Matthew 7:12, which refers to the "Law and the Prophets". Yeshua further addresses interring into life in Matthew 19:17, and he says one must keep the commandments to enter into life. One follows the broad way to "destruction", by following the "many", and thinking they can nail the Law to the cross, and be "released from the Law" (Romans 7:6)

 

[2ndpillar]

One part of Isaiah that is recognized as messianic by both Jews and Christians is Chapter 11. It speaks of “those days” which are a key phrase signaling this is a messianic passage. In “those days” a root, a branch of David will appear. It also says that in those days there will be major changes such as universal peace, universal knowledge of G-d, and a returning of the tribes of Israel to the Promised Land. Clearly these things have not yet happened. Which is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was not the messiah ben David.

If you had listened to Yeshua, you would know his kingdom is not of this world. If you had listened to Moses, you would have listened to the prophet God was to send. If you listen to the 38,000 versions of "Christianity", you would be really lost. Before your messianic kingdom of David (Zechariah 13:1), "two parts will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it" (Zechariah 13:9). Judah and Ephraim won't be healed until after two days (2000 years), when "they acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:14-6:3) because "I will go away and return to my place".

 

[Trailblazer]

There was no "Christianity" during the time of Yeshua's testimony. "Christianity" was the product of the false prophet Paul. One either enters into life in the here and now, for after one dies, it is a little late. Your Matthew 7 reference starts with Matthew 7:12, which refers to the "Law and the Prophets". Yeshua further addresses interring into life in Matthew 19:17, and he says one must keep the commandments to enter into life. One follows the broad way to "destruction", by following the "many", and thinking they can nail the Law to the cross, and be "released from the Law" (Romans 7:6)

I see, I never thought of it that way... Most Christians, the "many," believe that they are no longer under the Law because they are saved by grace... This is the broad way that leads to destruction, not to eternal life.

Jesus did not teach Christianity. That came much later.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet more division. People who don't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh are doomed.

Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh. That is a false doctrine of Christianity.
You do not believe in Jesus, you believe in Christianity.

Is it true that your bullah guy was muslim? Because Islam says the same thing.

Islam says the same thing because they know what the Bible means.
Baha'ul'lah was a Muslim just as Jesus was a Jew but the Bahai Faith is not a sect of Islam any more than Christianity is a sect of Judaism. They are separate religions with separate Prophets/Messengers.

Because you don't believe that Jesus is God.

One reason you do not know what the Book of Revelation means is because you believe Jesus is God.
Jesus never claimed to be God. The Church claimed that Jesus was God. Read your Bible and interpret it for yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Whom say ye that I am?"

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
16:15 He saith unto them, 'But whom say ye that I am?'
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, 'Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.'

Christ, the Son of the living God is not the same as the living God.

My Father which is in heaven shows that God is separate from Christ.

The Jews knew what Son of God means

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If God was His Father that means He was the Son of God, not equal to God. A Son is not equal to His Father.

Only Begotten Son of God

6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst.
8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
10:9 I am the door: by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.
11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus wasn't speaking about anyone but Himself.

Of course, we know he was speaking of Himself because He said “I am the...”

Jesus 24:5 "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Jesus knew the future so He knew many false prophets would come claiming to be Christ. That is why He gave all the warnings.
Indeed, there were many men who claimed to be Jesus: List of people claimed to be Jesus

But none of these were the Christ Spirit returned, except Bahá'u'lláh. We know it was Bahá'u'lláh because He fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. How He fulfilled them is explained in this book: Thief in the Night

In Context

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work anomia.

Anomia means without law. Nomos means a specific Law which Jesus has confirmed in Matthew 5-7... the Mosaic law will not pass away until the first heaven and earth pass away... after the Millennium, according to the Book of Revelation.

Much of the Mosaic Law is no longer applicable to present day society. We do not put homosexuals to death for example. Some of the Laws such as thou shall not murder or steal and others are still applicable, but they have been redefined by Baha’u’llah and there are new Laws that never existed before that are applicable for this new age.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is Bahá'u'lláh's Book of Laws, written in Arabic around 1873 while He was still imprisoned within the city of 'Akká. It is considered the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith. As I recall, it was translated into English in 1982.

In other words, all of the without-law people are not doing the will of the Father contained in the commandments of God. This is the fruit by which you shall know them: anomia.

I agree. God has send down Laws. One must not only know God, but one must observe His commandments.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5 ​

Deuteronomy 18:18-19"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto [Moses], and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him."

Notice it says that “I will raise them up a “Prophet” from among their brethren, like unto [Moses].” That refers to Jesus who was a Prophet, which means that Jesus was a man, not God.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
​

John 12:48-50"He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."

Again, notice that Jesus differentiates Himself from His Father “For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” God spoke to Jesus through the Holy Spirit and Jesus obeyed God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father. Jesus perfectly reflected the Attributes of God because he was a perfect mirror image of God. However, the “Essence” of God can never be known by anyone. God’s Essence is immeasurably above the understanding of all created things, and is exalted beyond the grasp of the minds of men.

The verses below are just a few of many verses that show that there are two Entities, Jesus and God, they show that Jesus is a separate Entity from God. Jesus was the Son, God is the Father. Those are not the same.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.​

 

[Trailblazer]

[Dispensation = oikos-nomos = house law]
Dispensationalism = changing ages and laws.

Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change times and law: and power shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time."

Daniel 7:25 (NASB)

"And he will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time."

This is a prophecy of the things that would happen to the church during the time of persecution that began in the first century. This is the same persecution that the apostle John writes about in the book of Revelation. Those who oppose the God Most High, may persecute the saints, and for a time it may appear that the oppressor is victorious, but in time the vindication of God will be seen. "time, times, and half a time," means an extended period of time, a time of persecution, but not enough time to cause God's Kingdom, or his saints, to fall.
What is Daniel 7:25 talking about? - What Do The Scriptures Say?​

The change of Times-and-Laws is Dispensational heresy... for which I used to only blame Paul. But there is no dispensationalism in the Bible w/o Paul.

God’s Laws can be likened to the Divine elixir. God’s Laws need to change according to the needs of the times. Many of the Mosaic Laws are not suitable for the age we live in.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80​

Nope, Jesus never changed the Law that God gave to Moses. He told His sheep that the marriage law, for example, was due to the Pharisaical hardness of their hearts. When Jesus speaks, He tells His sheep what the Law was in the beginning.

Because their Pharisees/teachers mis-taught them what to expect.

Matthew 23:13"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

Matthew 15:9"But in vain they do worship Me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men."

Very true, that is one thing that happened. The Pharisees mistaught them and led them away from recognizing Jesus, just as the Christian Church now has mistaught Christians and led them away from recognizing Baha’u’llah. History repeats itself. New Messengers of God and their messages are always rejected by the religious followers that preceded them.

John 12:48-50"He that rejectethMe, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."

The following quotes explain the Baha’i Faith “position” regarding Christianity and Islam.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth......

Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muḥammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 109-110​

 

[Shaul]

If you had listened to Yeshua, you would know his kingdom is not of this world. If you had listened to Moses, you would have listened to the prophet God was to send. If you listen to the 38,000 versions of "Christianity", you would be really lost. Before your messianic kingdom of David (Zechariah 13:1), "two parts will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it" (Zechariah 13:9). Judah and Ephraim won't be healed until after two days (2000 years), when "they acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:14-6:3) because "I will go away and return to my place".

Irrelevant. The messianic prophecies recorded in Isaiah chapter 11 are and must be of this world. Jesus did not fulfill them. Therefore he has not fulfilled the messianic prophecies and is not the messiah Ben David,

 

[2ndpillar]

Daniel 7:25 (NASB)

"And he will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time."

This is a prophecy of the things that would happen to the church during the time of persecution that began in the first century. This is the same persecution that the apostle John writes about in the book of Revelation. Those who oppose the God Most High, may persecute the saints, and for a time it may appear that the oppressor is victorious, but in time the vindication of God will be seen. "time, times, and half a time," means an extended period of time, a time of persecution, but not enough time to cause God's Kingdom, or his saints, to fall.
What is Daniel 7:25 talking about? - What Do The Scriptures Say?

Daniel 7:25 is taking about the "another" "king" "will arise after them" of Daniel 7:24. That would be the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10 who would follow the 6th head/king who "is", and who has 10 horns, the Augustus Caesars. The 7th head would be the institutor of the Roman Church, Constantine, who would "wear down the saints" for time, times and half a time, by way of using the image of the dragon, which was given to Constantine at the battle of Milvian bridge, which is the cross. The "kingdom of God" has yet to be set up (Revelation 20:4). The "ruler of the world" is the "dragon"/"Satan"/"devil" (Revelation 20:2).

 

[2ndpillar]

Irrelevant. The messianic prophecies recorded in Isaiah chapter 11 are and must be of this world. Jesus did not fulfill them. Therefore he has not fulfilled the messianic prophecies and is not the messiah Ben David,

All kings, judges, high priest, and prophets of Israel are anointed. According to Matthew 1, Yeshua was son of David. Therefore as a prophet, spoken of by Moses, and a son of David, Yeshua would be a messiah Ben David. As for the kingdom on earth, that didn't happen, for Elijah was not able to turn the hearts of the sons to their fathers (Malachi 4:6), and Ephraim and Judah continued in their curse/judgment instead (Hosea 5), "until they acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), which will be after 2 days/2000 years (Hosea 6:2).

 

[CG Didymus]

Why does it matter what they are presented as? Why does it matter what people believe? People believe all kinds of things and many of them are not true. It might be historical fact or not, or some might be factual and some symbolic. How can we know now? Has any scholar every made such a determination?

So what is wrong with saying that Moses existed and was a Manifestation od God but not everything written in the Old Testament is literally true, because it was written by men and because it was intended to be symbolic?

I do not have a problem with the Virgin Birth because Shoghi Effendi confirmed that it happened and it was mystery of God we cannot understand. I won’t pretend that I know what anything else in that chapter means. It seems to be symbolic of something but I do not know of what.

Do you really think that religious teachers in ancient times would say that the things they are teaching aren't factual? Like literal believing Christians think that God essentially wrote the Bible, therefore it is true and factual. If it's not factual, then why follow the commands given in it? Did God annihilate the Egyptian army? Did Jesus rise from the dead and is going to judge all people? If not, why believe any of it? And many people do question the Bible and end up rejecting everything in it. Like would you really believe that God would command people to be stoned for breaking the Sabbath? That would have been nice to know if that was only a "symbolic" stoning.

The Virgin Birth could easily have been a made up story. Who was there when Jesus was born? Not Luke or Matthew, but they are the only ones that mention it. And, if you say Isaiah prophesied it, you better read that chapter in Isaiah and make sure that it was a prophecy about Jesus. 'Cause, for me, it don't fit the context. You might as well read the whole Virgin Birth story. Magi following a star? Angels appearing to shepherds? Sounds like a great fairy tale to me. But... if it's not, then it's not too big a step to make Jesus a very special child... like maybe the Son of God.