Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

[Muffled]

Thank you. Your website provides a compelling narrative weaving prophecy from Isaiah and other Hebrew books into the gospel accounts.

Most of the prophecies in regards Jesus are included above.

Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Are there any prophecies from Isaiah that might refer to the second coming of Christ or another who has been anointed?

I believe Isa. 60: 1-7 is about the second coming and I believe there is no evidence of another anointed to come.

 

[Tumah]

Christians have their favorite loophole when it comes to things that are Messianic prophecies... they'll say that this part of the prophecy won't be fulfilled until Jesus returns in the Second Coming. Oh, are there Jewish prophecies that the Messiah will come twice?

Of course not.

 

[Tumah]

I believe Isa. 60: 1-7 is about the second coming and I believe there is no evidence of another anointed to come.

That entire chapter is in second person feminine (including verses 1-7). Because it's talking about Zion/Jerusalem and "city" in Hebrew is a feminine noun (see verse 14).

So I think as a Christian, you're going to have to fall back on the dual prophecy thing.

 

[OtherSheep]

You would have a view of Christianity that most Christians would disagree with. The acceptance of Paul as an apostle of Christ and the truth of his teachings was supported by 2 Peter 3:15-16

Many Christians would see Messianic verses of Isaiah as referring to Jesus and His Return. Not all Christians believe in His Return as it appears you don’t.

You really sound as if you have an axe to grind with Paul.

[I certainly do see Jesus returning... but not according to Paulianity.]
[I follow that which Paul persecuted... not 'christianity.']

And BTW... only Paul called Paul an apostle. 2 Peter has been called a fraud since day one. Someone coming in his own name, pretending to have the authority of Jesus... telling you that Satan comes as an angel of light... apparently the same light that he saw [his men saw or didn't see, heard or didn't hear... playing to the audience].

An axe to grind:

For the whole prophecy to be fulfilled, this blood-guilt has to be
assigned to Paul the Phariseeet al... the one who literally fulfilled it.

Jesus: 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Paul: 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].
Jesus: 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Jesus' prophecies cannot fail.

Slightly off topic but in response to your post in Matthew’s record of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17-18).

So if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it must still be binding, right? So the Sabbath requirements must still be applicable, along with many other elements of the Mosaic Law. This belief is based on a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ never suggested the laws of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict the Teachings of the Apostles (Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).

Healing on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6) and changing the laws of marriage (Matthew 19:3-12) are specific examples of His authority to bring a New Covenant with new laws.

Misunderstanding the words... which are then sliced and diced to such an extent that they've become bushels of tiny breadcrumbs... aka, the Leaven of the Pharisees.

Contradict the teachings of Paul... Or Believe Jesus

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."

"Till all be fulfilled" continues on through the Millennium... when Heaven and Earth pass away.
And Jesus' words will never pass away, period.
[IOW, Choosing Paul over Jesus is suicide.]

Changing the laws of marriage, Because

19:8 "He saith unto them [Pharisees], "Moses because of the hardness of your [Pharisee] hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

But from the beginning it was not so. And at the end, God writes the Law on the hearts of His sheep who hear Jesus' voice, and will follow no other (John.10). [p.s., Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.]

________________________
Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him."

John 12:48 "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course not.

Did I say twice? I meant once as Jesus, once as Muhammad, once as The Bab, and once as Baha'u'llah. Is there any prophecies that the Messiah will come four times? And still not fulfill the things promised in the Bible? I suppose the answer will be the same, "No". So what's going on? They all say that the one true God sent all these "manifestations". I know the Christian answer... it's they are all false except Jesus. But, what's the answer from a Jewish perspective? And, I'll accept that they are all false including Jesus as an answer.

Oh, and what about the Baha'i concept of a "manifestation"? It's a special person that is like a perfect reflection of God and a person speaks through, like a prophet, but more than a prophet. Abraham and Moses are supposed to be that kind of person. Anything like that in Judaism?

 

[Tumah]

Did I say twice? I meant once as Jesus, once as Muhammad, once as The Bab, and once as Baha'u'llah. Is there any prophecies that the Messiah will come four times? And still not fulfill the things promised in the Bible? I suppose the answer will be the same, "No". So what's going on? They all say that the one true God sent all these "manifestations". I know the Christian answer... it's they are all false except Jesus. But, what's the answer from a Jewish perspective? And, I'll accept that they are all false including Jesus as an answer.

Of course they're all false. Like I said in that other thread about G-d not being clear. The thing that every religion learned from Christianity was to choose who they want to believe in and then work it back into the text, rather than discern from the text an image of who they should believe in.

Oh, and what about the Baha'i concept of a "manifestation"? It's a special person that is like a perfect reflection of God and a person speaks through, like a prophet, but more than a prophet. Abraham and Moses are supposed to be that kind of person. Anything like that in Judaism?

This sounds like they conflated some Christian and Hindu concept and ret-conned it into all the other religions. This is not Jewish.

 

[2ndpillar]

You would have a view of Christianity that most Christians would disagree with. The acceptance of Paul as an apostle of Christ and the truth of his teachings was supported by 2 Peter 3:15-16 and Peter was appointed by Jesus, However although I believe in Moses, Christ and the apostles I also believe that Muhammad and Bahá’u’lláh we anointed from God few Christians would accept either.

You might want to keep in mind that the consensus is that 2 Peter was written after Peter's death by some one other than Peter. The fact that it is in the Roman Catholic (daughter of Babylon) canon of 367 AD, does not give it any credibility. One is supposed to "escape" from the "daughter of Babylon" (Zechariah 2:7).

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would add Isa 60: 1-7.

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord.
All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isaiah 60:1-8

It does sound remarkably Messianic though I freely admit I'm not a Jewish scholar and have been heavily influence by both my Christian upbriinging and many years as a Baha'i.

The wise men or Magis bearing gifts perhaps.

There's reference to a cloud and a dove too. Its really sounding Messianic now!

 

[CG Didymus]

You might want to keep in mind that the consensus is that 2 Peter was written after Peter's death by some one other than Peter. The fact that it is in the Roman Catholic (daughter of Babylon) canon of 367 AD, does not give it any credibility. One is supposed to "escape" from the "daughter of Babylon" (Zechariah 2:7).

I wonder how any of the NT stories can ever be verified? Like if Matthew really wrote something out, what did he do with it after that? He took to a scribe to make a bunch of copies, so he could hand them out to all the churches? But, if he didn't sign his name on it, what if someone else wrote it and took it to his Church and said that he has a gospel written by Matthew and they should send copies to all the other Churches? Or, was he such a good writer that he never had to make revisions or have an editor revise it for him?

But, whatever did get approved and canonized and given an author's name attached to it, is now something special... it is the "Word of God". But anyone can find legitimate issues with so many things in all the NT books. Like, isn't there a question as to how many "Isaiah's" did the writing of those stories and prophecies? Then on top of that interpreting them. Then, finding chapters or verses... or even just one verse, that supports a view and gets called a prophecy? Like with Isaiah 7:14, so that's a prophecy about Jesus being born from a virgin, but then all the rest of the chapter, that continues with the things the "sign" will be, have nothing to do with Jesus? I don't know. It seems like it's all a game of making the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Really? If the signs were clear, Jews would be Christians, then Christians, Moslems, and Moslems would be Baha'is. But, what would a Jew gain by becoming a Christian back then? Weren't the Jewish Christians seen as having heretical beliefs by wanting to keep the Law? And then, what did Christianity evolve into? Were there prophecies about what would become of the Church?

My understanding on this matter is that if we each accepted the Messenger that appeared subsequent to our own Faith then humanity would all be united and things like WW1 and WW2 would never have even occurred as world peace would have been established by then.

May I put to you the question - what advantage is there in humanity’s current disunity? Of what use is having all this hate and prejudice between religions? Wouldn’t and friendship and fellowship be preferable?

The different religions are as classes in a school. From kindergarten to university all are equally important and necessary for our spiritual and social development. Without our abc we could never have advanced to university so all religions have been essential parts of humanity’s progress.

It’s only bias, prejudice and hate which keeps us from being united as it’s always our freedom of choice that determines who we really are and our current choices indicate we much prefer to put down anything that could lead us to peace and exalt those concepts that lead to war and division.

We could very easily be united and at peace tomorrow should we so desire.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wonder how any of the NT stories can ever be verified? Like if Matthew really wrote something out, what did he do with it after that? He took to a scribe to make a bunch of copies, so he could hand them out to all the churches? But, if he didn't sign his name on it, what if someone else wrote it and took it to his Church and said that he has a gospel written by Matthew and they should send copies to all the other Churches? Or, was he such a good writer that he never had to make revisions or have an editor revise it for him?

But, whatever did get approved and canonized and given an author's name attached to it, is now something special... it is the "Word of God". But anyone can find legitimate issues with so many things in all the NT books. Like, isn't there a question as to how many "Isaiah's" did the writing of those stories and prophecies? Then on top of that interpreting them. Then, finding chapters or verses... or even just one verse, that supports a view and gets called a prophecy? Like with Isaiah 7:14, so that's a prophecy about Jesus being born from a virgin, but then all the rest of the chapter, that continues with the things the "sign" will be, have nothing to do with Jesus? I don't know. It seems like it's all a game of making the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

In this age and subsequent ages we would know from latter Messengers and Prophets Who can confirm the truth.

For instance, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, if you read Their Writings They distinguish between truth and falsehood. So let’s take a concept like the trinity. These Messengers all confirmed it was an incorrect interpretation. Likewise They also all confirmed that the Virgin Birth was in fact true. They also explain many misinterpreted passages of the Holy Books to set the truth straight.

The Prophets and Messengers of God we Baha’is believe, have both the Authority and Perfect knowledge to be able to confirm the authenticity and validity of past scriptures as well as clear up misunderstandings which have led to division and strife.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Really? If the signs were clear, Jews would be Christians, then Christians, Moslems, and Moslems would be Baha'is. But, what would a Jew gain by becoming a Christian back then? Weren't the Jewish Christians seen as having heretical beliefs by wanting to keep the Law? And then, what did Christianity evolve into? Were there prophecies about what would become of the Church?

It wasn’t that the signs were not clear but that the people were not pure in heart as in the saying ‘blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God’.

No matter what proofs or how clear they may be only the pure in heart can recognize the signs of God. So it was the lack of a pure spiritual condition of people’s souls which led them to reject the Manifestations of God even to this day.

 

[Trailblazer]

The title of your thread is very confusing... All Messianic verses are about Jesus. God says nothing about multiple christs...

The entire Old Testament is full of prophecies that refer to a Messiah. Some of these prophecies refer to Jesus but most of them do not refer to Jesus because Jesus did not fulfill those prophecies. For one example of many:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder or that it would be His judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Jesus cannot ever fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah of the latter days because Jesus is not coming back to earth. There is not one verse in the Bible wherein Jesus says He is going to return to earth. Since there is no scripture in the Bible that speaks of the same Jesus returning, Christians can only try to misinterpret scriptures to suit their fancy.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

There is only one plain meaning to John 17:4 and John 17:11. Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

That's as polite as the truth can be.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The entire Old Testament is full of prophecies that refer to a Messiah. Some of these prophecies refer to Jesus but most of them do not refer to Jesus because Jesus did not fulfill those prophecies. For one example of many:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder or that it would be His judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Jesus cannot ever fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah of the latter days because Jesus is not coming back to earth. There is not one verse in the Bible wherein Jesus says He is going to return to earth. Since there is no scripture in the Bible that speaks of the same Jesus returning, Christians can only try to misinterpret scriptures to suit their fancy.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

There is only one plain meaning to John 17:4 and John 17:11. Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

That's as polite as the truth can be.

Trailblazer this is so beautiful! One more thing to add and that’s Jesus said the pure in heart would see God so it’s not that the signs and proofs are not there but purity of heart is required not rhetoric, argument or debate. Only purity of heart enables one to be able to recognise God and His Manifestations.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer this is so beautiful! One more thing to add and that’s Jesus said the pure in heart would see God so it’s not that the signs and proofs are not there but purity of heart is required not rhetoric, argument or debate. Only purity of heart enables one to be able to recognise God and His Manifestations.

You must be psychic... I was just arduously searching for a passage I saw earlier today to post to another one of your posts, but it is even more appropriate as a response to this post.

“We have forbidden men to walk after the imaginations of their hearts, that they may be enabled to recognize Him Who is the sovereign Source and Object of all knowledge, and may acknowledge whatsoever He may be pleased to reveal. Witness how they have entangled themselves with their idle fancies and vain imaginations. By My life! They are themselves the victims of what their own hearts have devised, and yet they perceive it not. Vain and profitless is the talk of their lips, and yet they understand not.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 204-205​

 

[loverofhumanity]

You must be psychic... I was just arduously searching for a passage I saw earlier today to post to another one of your posts, but it is even more appropriate as a response to this post.

“We have forbidden men to walk after the imaginations of their hearts, that they may be enabled to recognize Him Who is the sovereign Source and Object of all knowledge, and may acknowledge whatsoever He may be pleased to reveal. Witness how they have entangled themselves with their idle fancies and vain imaginations. By My life! They are themselves the victims of what their own hearts have devised, and yet they perceive it not. Vain and profitless is the talk of their lips, and yet they understand not.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 204-205​

Here, Baha’u’llah’ indicates that finding truth and God depends upon our own spiritual condition.

When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy.... He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth.

 

[OtherSheep]

John 10:1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep."

The entire Old Testament is full of prophecies that refer to a Messiah. Some of these prophecies refer to Jesus but most of them do not refer to Jesus because Jesus did not fulfill those prophecies. For one example of many:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

THE Messiah is not A, as in one of many. The Messiah of the Israelite Bible is the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18 who is like unto Moses, and comes to Galilee.

In Context

Esaias 9:1 "O land of Zabulon, land of Nephthalim, and the rest inhabiting the sea-coast, and the land beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. 2 O people walking in darkness, behold a great light: ye that dwell in the region and shadow of death, a light shall shine upon you. 3 The multitude of the people which thou hast brought down in thy joy, they shall even rejoice before thee as they that rejoice in harvest, and as they that divide the spoil. 4 Because the yoke that was laid upon them has been taken away, and the rod that was on their neck: for He has broken the rod of the exactors, as in the day of Madiam. 5 For they shall compensate for every garment that has been acquired by deceit, and all raiment with restitution; and they shall be willing, even if they were burnt with fire. 6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon His shoulder: and His name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to Him. 7 His government shall be great, and of His peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this."[LXX]

Esaias 22:20 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim (God of raising) the son of Chelcias (portion of Jah): 21 and I will put on Him thy robe, and I will grant Him thy crown with power, and I will give thy stewardship into His hands: and He shall be as a father to them that dwell in Jerusalem, and to them that dwell in Juda. 22 And I will give Him the glory of David; and He shall rule, and there shall be none to speak against Him *: and I will give Him the key of the house of David upon His shoulder; and He shall open, and there shall be none to shut; and He shall shut, and there shall be none to open. 23 And I will make Him a ruler in a sure place, and He shall be for a glorious throne of His Father’s house. 24 And every one that is glorious in the house of His Father shall trust in Him, from the least to the greatest; and they shall depend upon Him in that day. 25 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, 'The man that is fastened in the sure place shall be removed and be taken away, and shall fall; and the glory that is upon Him shall be utterly destroyed: for the Lord has spoken it." [the cup of crucifixion... 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?']

John 10:17 "Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father." [Eliakim, God of raising]

Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name." John 12:48 "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

In Context

Isaiah 11:1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from His root: 2 and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness shall fill Him; 3 the spirit of the fear of God. He shall not judge according to appearance, nor reprove according to report: 4 but He shall judge the cause of the lowly, and shall reprove the lowly of the earth: and He shall smite the earth with the word of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall he destroy the ungodly one. 5 And He shall have His loins girt with righteousness, and His sides clothed with truth."

John 1:32 "And John bare record, saying, 'I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him. 33 And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.'"

John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, 'Peace [be] unto you: as [My] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.' 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.'"

Jesus cannot ever fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah of the latter days because Jesus is not coming back to earth. There is not one verse in the Bible wherein Jesus says He is going to return to earth.

[many, actually]

Esaias 11:4 but He shall judge the cause of the lowly, and shall reprove the lowly of the earth: and He shall smite the earth with the word of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall he destroy the ungodly one. 5 And He shall have His loins girt with righteousness, and His sides clothed with truth." [see context, above]

Esaias 63:1 "Who is this that is come from Edom, with red garments from Bosor? thus fair in His apparel, with mighty strength?"

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. 13 And He [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Revelation 1:16-18 "And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, 'Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.'"

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

There is only one plain meaning to John 17:4 and John 17:11.

[yep, but not the one you think... and BTW, there again, Jesus says that He and His Father are one.]

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you."

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

You're forgetting the penalty phase of Mosaic Law... and you seem never to have read the Revelation.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."

________________________
Only Jesus' sheep hear only Jesus' voice. (John 10)

* "and there shall be none to speak against Him"... is obviously unfulfilled prophecy... to date.

 

[Trailblazer]

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."

I am not going to debate with you over the meaning of Bible verses since I already know which ones refer to Baha’u’llah, who was the Messiah and the Return of the Christ Spirit, and the Promised One of all ages. You are free to believe whatever you want since God gave everyone free will.

The Bible can mean just about anything people want it to mean and Christians do not agree what it means, except within the same denominations; so that alone demonstrates that the Bible cannot be deciphered accurately. Christians misinterpret the OT and the NT to try to make Jesus into the Messiah who will return in the latter days, but He is not and never will be because Jesus died on the cross and His soul ascended to heaven where it is to this day and will remain forever.

The OT and NT prophecies prove that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah and the return of Christ Spirit. If Jews or Christians want to look at the prophecies and how they were fulfilled they can read the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Baha’u’llah was the third woe, the seventh angel and the Lord of Hosts.

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” (Rev. 11:14) The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muḥammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” (Ez. 30:1–3)

Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15)

The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57​

(Continued on Post #80)

 

[Dawnofhope]

[I certainly do see Jesus returning... but not according to Paulianity.]
[I follow that which Paul persecuted... not 'christianity.']

I’ve never heard of any Christian denomination rejecting Paul. Are part of any faith community? I imagine it would be difficult opening having such a belief in many denominations.

And BTW... only Paul called Paul an apostle. 2 Peter has been called a fraud since day one. Someone coming in his own name, pretending to have the authority of Jesus... telling you that Satan comes as an angel of light... apparently the same light that he saw [his men saw or didn't see, heard or didn't hear... playing to the audience].

I personally believe 2 Peter is the real deal but appreciate many scholars believe it may not have been written by Peter at all on account of literary styles diverging with 1 Peter.

For the whole prophecy to be fulfilled, this blood-guilt has to be
assigned to Paul the Phariseeet al... the one who literally fulfilled it.

Jesus: 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Paul: 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].
Jesus: 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Jesus' prophecies cannot fail.

That’s the whole point of the saving Grace of Christ. If someone like Paul can arise to champion the cause of Christ, anyone can.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ OtherSheep

In God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith describes the names and titles given to Baha’u’llah and how He fulfilled the prophecies of various religions.

“To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

In the name He bore He combined those of the Imám Ḥusayn, the most illustrious of the successors of the Apostle of God—the brightest “star” shining in the “crown” mentioned in the Revelation of St. John—and of the Imám ‘Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, the second of the two “witnesses” extolled in that same Book. He was formally designated Bahá’u’lláh, an appellation specifically recorded in the Persian Bayán, signifying at once the glory, the light and the splendor of God, and was styled the “Lord of Lords,” the “Most Great Name,” the “Ancient Beauty,” the “Pen of the Most High,” the “Hidden Name,” the “Preserved Treasure,” “He Whom God will make manifest,” the “Most Great Light,” the “All-Highest Horizon,” the “Most Great Ocean,” the “Supreme Heaven,” the “Pre-Existent Root,” the “Self-Subsistent,” the “Day-Star of the Universe,” the “Great Announcement,” the “Speaker on Sinai,” the “Sifter of Men,” the “Wronged One of the World,” the “Desire of the Nations,” the “Lord of the Covenant,” the “Tree beyond which there is no passing.” He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sásáníyán dynasty. He was moreover a descendant of Jesse, and belonged, through His father, MírzáAbbás, better known as Mírzá Buzurg—a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fatḥ-‘AlíSháh—to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mázindarán.

To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,” the “Everlasting Father,” the “Prince of Peace,” the “Wonderful,” the “Counsellor,” the “Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse” and the “Branch grown out of His roots,” Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,” Who “will come with strong hand,” Who “shall judge among the nations,” Who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked,” and Who “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the “Lord of Hosts” and the “King of Glory.” To Him Haggai had referred as the “Desire of all nations,” and Zachariah as the “Branch” Who “shall grow up out of His place,” and “shall build the Temple of the Lord.” Ezekiel had extolled Him as the “Lord” Who “shall be king over all the earth,” while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the “day of Jehovah,” the latter describing it as “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.” His Day Ezekiel and Daniel had, moreover, both acclaimed as the “day of the Lord,” and Malachi described as “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” when “the Sun of Righteousness” will “arise, with healing in His wings,” whilst Daniel had pronounced His advent as signalizing the end of the “abomination that maketh desolate.”

To His Dispensation the sacred books of the followers of Zoroaster had referred as that in which the sun must needs be brought to a standstill for no less than one whole month. To Him Zoroaster must have alluded when, according to tradition, He foretold that a period of three thousand years of conflict and contention must needs precede the advent of the World-Savior Sháh-Bahrám, Who would triumph over Ahriman and usher in an era of blessedness and peace.

He alone is meant by the prophecy attributed to Gautama Buddha Himself, that “a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship” should, in the fullness of time, arise and reveal “His boundless glory.” To Him the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus had referred as the “Most Great Spirit,” the “Tenth Avatar,” the “Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna.”

To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.”

To Him Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, had alluded in His Book as the “Great Announcement,” and declared His Day to be the Day whereon “God” will “come down” “overshadowed with clouds,” the Day whereon “thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank,” and “The Spirit shall arise and the angels shall be ranged in order.” His advent He, in that Book, in a súrih said to have been termed by Him “the heart of the Qur’án,” had foreshadowed as that of the “third” Messenger, sent down to “strengthen” the two who preceded Him. To His Day He, in the pages of that same Book, had paid a glowing tribute, glorifying it as the “Great Day,” the “Last Day,” the “Day of God,” the “Day of Judgment,” the “Day of Reckoning,” the “Day of Mutual Deceit,” the “Day of Severing,” the “Day of Sighing,” the “Day of Meeting,” the Day “when the Decree shall be accomplished,” the Day whereon the second “Trumpet blast” will be sounded, the “Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the world,” and “all shall come to Him in humble guise,” the Day when “thou shalt see the mountains, which thou thinkest so firm, pass away with the passing of a cloud,” the Day “wherein account shall be taken,” “the approaching Day, when men’s hearts shall rise up, choking them, into their throats,” the Day when “all that are in the heavens and all that are on the earth shall be terror-stricken, save him whom God pleaseth to deliver,” the Day whereon “every suckling woman shall forsake her sucking babe, and every woman that hath a burden in her womb shall cast her burden,” the Day “when the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord, and the Book shall be set, and the Prophets shall be brought up, and the witnesses; and judgment shall be given between them with equity; and none shall be wronged.” God Passes By, pp. 94-96​