Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Popularized into a Christmas song.
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Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Popularized into a Christmas song.
rosends
Well-Known Member
What I find is that the first part of your opening statement is important -- "Christians believe...". To a Jew, that has the same value that "Raelians believe that Rael was foretold in the Spanish version of the gospels" might have to a Christian.
Most, if not all, of the claims based in mistranslated/misinterpreted (or out of context) verses have been dealt with on websites like www.drazin.com and Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums among many others.
Most, if not all, of the claims based in mistranslated/misinterpreted (or out of context) verses have been dealt with on websites like www.drazin.com and Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums among many others.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Adrian009……..It’s useful to be reminded of the argument why Mary wasn’t a virgin based on a mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14.
The Anointed…….. it is also useful to be reminded of the argument that the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine which was established in the fourth century A.D. changed Luke 3: 22, which originally read; “After all the people had been baptised, Jesus also was baptised. While he was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit came down on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven; “You are my Son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee.”
In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.”
The Roman Church in their recorded canon have changed this to; “You are my beloved son in whom I am pleased,” in order to support their lie, that the physical birth of Jesus occurred through the union of some alien lifeform that pre-existed the creation of the Cosmos, and some supposed earthly ever virgin.
Whereas the scriptures reveal that it was on the day that he was baptised, when he was born a Son of God not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, The Son of Man, the most high in the creation, which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; “You are my Son [My chosen heir and successor] THIS DAY, [The day of his baptism] I have begotten thee.
it is also useful to be reminded of the fact that it was the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine, from whose body of false teachings many denominational daughters were spawned, who added the interpolation in brackets, in Luke 3: 23; When Jesus began his work, he was about thirty years old. He was the son [SO PEOPLE THOUGHT] of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios/Heli.
Again, this was done in order to cast doubt on the fact that Jesus was born of the flesh, as are all human beings, who are born of the seed of Adam.
Adrian009…….. The overall narrative about Mary in both Matthew and Luke supports the authors intention to present her as a virgin.
The Anointed…….. The authors that you refer to, are of course Jerome and other obedient scribes of the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine, who translated the Hebrew bible into Latin and the Gospels according to their erroneous interpretations.
Adrian009…….. It is possible of course for her to be both a virgin and a young unmarried women.
The Anointed……… Not in the Hebrew language as used by Isaiah, she cannot be. If she was a woman who had never had sexual intercourse with a man, she would have been a “BETHULAH/a virgin,” but as she was a PREGNANT, young unmarried woman, she was an “ALMAH,” and no longer a virgin.
Adrian009…….. For most of those who believe in a God that can perform miracles it probably won’t change much.
The Anointed………. You are correct there my friend. . . . . Ian Wilson...Jesus The Evidence....In Alexandria, by the second century, ‘Docetism,’ the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out. But still, there persisted the belief that their Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and excretion, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, who was later to become a Saint in the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.” [Satan must have been some idiot thinking that this Jesus of theirs who had no need of food, was so hungry, he could tempt this false Jesus of theirs into turning stones into bread.]
This is the same Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, who, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, (Non-biblical) told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.
Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clements life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.
"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right. But by then the falsehood was so entrenched in the minds of the gullible, and their minds are now so mixed up and set as hard as concrete, one would need a Sledge Hammer to crack them and allow the light of truth to enter in.
So you were correct in saying that for most of those who believe in a God [Who was conceived from the union of an alien father who pre-existed the creation of the cosmos, with a human mother who has never experienced a sexual relation with another human male] and which God can perform miracles, it probably won’t change much.
Adrian009…….. For those who disbelieve in such a God it’s another useful argument.
The Anointed…….. It most certainly is.
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Beautifully explained. The signs are so clear.
One more thing. There were prophecies in Isaiah referring to the ‘government being upon His Shoulder’ as well I think that ‘of the increase of His government there shall be no end’ and ‘ the wolf and the lamb laying down in peace. None of these things happened in Christ’s time nor could the Jews see how Christ fit the description. They were right in that Jesus did not fulfill all of Isaiah’s prophecies as they weren’t all referring to only Him but some of them to Another to come at a later date.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
GNB. Isaiah 63: 1-6, "Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?" It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. "Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?"
The Lord answers, "I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I DECIDED THAT THE TIME TO SAVE MY PEOPLE HAD COME; it was time to punish their enemies.
I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth."
The Lord answers, "I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I DECIDED THAT THE TIME TO SAVE MY PEOPLE HAD COME; it was time to punish their enemies.
I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth."
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
This may not be a prophecy of Isaiah, but it certainly reinforces Isaiah 63; Numbers 24: 14-19; The message of Balaam son of Beor. "The words of the man who sees clearly. Who can hear what God is saying, and receive the knowledge that comes from the Most High. With staring eyes I see in a trance, a vision from Almighty God.
I look into the future and I see the nation of Israel. A king like a bright star, will arise in that nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel; He will strike the leaders of Moab, and beat down the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land His possession, while Israel continues victorious. The nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
From the lack of response from the members of the Roman Church and her denominational daughter bodies, could I be wrong in believing that they are not too fond of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Israelites, who is coming to save his people and establish his throne in the literal city of "Jerusalem?"
The Anointed- colossal misnomer.
It seems to me that, by your name, you do not really understand what lt means to be Anointed. Please inform me as to what Anointed means to you, today, and what your future holds, for all Anointed ones.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
The word “CHRIST” means “The Anointed One.” Enoch was the one anointed by the Most High in the creation as his heir and successor.
Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."
Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year: the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.
Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.
The only man to have ascended to the ends of all time and was translated so as to never see death, and this man, plays absolutely no part in the belief of the universal/Catholic church of Constantine: “The Stone that the builder's rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all."
The great and glorious one who, clothed and girded in fire was anointed to serve God before the body of Adam=Mankind into all eternity, the heavenly Simulacrum of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, which simulacrum=blue-print, is the sin offering that God has prepared for us, the blueprint, of the new species of light beings that comes from mankind (THE SON OF MAN)
Enoch is the anointed successor to the throne of “THE MOST HIGH’ in the creation: Enoch is the CHRIST who stands, clothed and girded in fire, where he serves God before the body of Adam [Mankind] into all eternity.
The oldest known Jewish work not included in the canon of Constantine’s universal church, is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, the known COPIES of which were written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE.
The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls
Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.
I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.
Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.
Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.
Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.
"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."
And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord's face.
[Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]
And the Most High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.
The Great and glorious simulacrum which is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us, and the blue-print of the new Temple of God [The glorious incorruptible bodies of Light] which is to replace his old temporary earthly tabernacle/tent [The Body of Mankind] as the ruler of the creation, of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, dies in the process of involution, to be the saviour of we in evolution, This he does by releasing all the righteous spirits of mankind which had been gathered to him in his ascension to the ends of time, from the least to the greatest, and Enoch was the first.
And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead. He is CHRIST=The anointed one]
And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.
I see the book of Daniel as strongly prophetic from a Baha'i perspective. No doubt the perspective in Judaism varies.
There are many references in the Tanakh that refer to clouds in association with G_d's presence. The first reference is found in Exodus 13:21.
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
Exodus 40:35 associates the cloud with G_d’s glory:
“And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” In order for it to fill the tabernacle, the “glory of the Lord” must have had a physical manifestation recognizable to the people.
The Lord told Moses, “No man may see me and live" (Exodus 33:20-23). He allowed Moses only a fleeting glimpse of His Glory in passing. Those who encountered the cloud of G_d’s glory in the Old Testament were often unable to approach it (Exodus 40:34-35; 2 Chronicles 7:2) and 1 Kings 8:11).
Ezekiel truly experienced the glory of the Lord. He writes, “Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking” (Ezekiel 1:28, Ezekiel 44:4).
Tumah
Veteran Member
I do not deny that clouds are sometimes used in association with G-d's Presence, although perhaps for the reason you are describing here. That doesn't mean that every mention of clouds is meant to be associated with G-d's Presence. And in fact here the verse specifies "clouds of the heavens", you do not find the word clouds in plural or "of the heavens" ever connected to the clouds associated with G-d's Presence. The reason is, as I said earlier, that the clouds are meant to contrast between the "sea" that the creatures come from: the source of the Messiah is the height of the heavens, while the source of the beasts are the depths of the sea. They're not meant to indicate a connection between the Messiah and G-d. G-d does not appear in "clouds of the heavens", He appears with a single cloud.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
According to the compilers of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, they date the exodus at somewhere in the year of 1500 BC about the period when the island of Santorini or Thira blew its top, when seismic waves flooded Egyptian croplands, causing a famine and other catastrophic events.
The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the heavens, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.
A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.
Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.
Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”
Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.
The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.
All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity of the future, was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.
In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.
Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.
Each morning the desert floor was covered with mounds of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.
Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.
The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.
As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'm sure in most circumstances you would say that context is of great importance... that people can't take one verse and say it means something that isn't supported by the context. Here is verse 7:14 and those that come after. Do any of the other verses refer to the Messiah? If so, how? If not, what do they refer to?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a rasor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep; 22 And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
23 And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns.
24 With arrows and with bows shall men come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.
25 And on all hills that shall be digged with the mattock, there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns: but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of lesser cattle.
To be fair, I don't think we have a shred of evidence from established historical and archaeological methods that the Israelites were in Egypt at the time of Moses. That doesn't mean they weren't. We just can't prove any of the events in Exodus actually happened and that's just a the nature of history. Most events just disappear into the mists of time.
Same deal with a virgin birth. We can't prove or disprove it. Christians over the centuries may have been totally misguided to associate the virgin birth with Isaiah 7:14. There is certainly no direct reference to this verse in either Matthew 1 or Luke 1.
I'd be interested in understanding your take on the bible a little better. Do you belong to any established Christian denomination?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I totally agree. Taking verses out of context can be made to say anything the author wants. I asked about Isaiah 7:14. Why that one verse? Why not the verses that follow that describe other things that will happen and are part of the sign? Actually, I think I know why... because the rest don't fit and can't be woven into the Jesus story. If some cult was doing this, Christians would call them out and demand the verse be taken in context. But, I guess, in the beginning, the Jesus movement was a cult and I'm sure they were called out for taking verses out of context.
But now what? Now that they are the largest religion in the world? What do they say about other religions that take their NT verses out of context?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Christians have their favorite loophole when it comes to things that are Messianic prophecies... they'll say that this part of the prophecy won't be fulfilled until Jesus returns in the Second Coming. Oh, are there Jewish prophecies that the Messiah will come twice?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Really? If the signs were clear, Jews would be Christians, then Christians, Moslems, and Moslems would be Baha'is. But, what would a Jew gain by becoming a Christian back then? Weren't the Jewish Christians seen as having heretical beliefs by wanting to keep the Law? And then, what did Christianity evolve into? Were there prophecies about what would become of the Church?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I can see why Cyrus would be a Messiah. He delivered the Jewish people from bondage in a foreign land to freedom in their own land.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I would add Isa 60: 1-7.