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Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Are any of the verses of Isaiah Messianic and do any refer to Christ?

  • I don’t know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
WAS MARY REALLY A VIRGIN?

Yes! Right up until the act by which she conceived her first born son, Jesus, who was sired by her half brother, Joseph ben Heli.

Isaiah 7: 14; Jewish Translation: “Therefore the Lord, of his own, shall give you a sign; behold the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.”

Isaiah 7: 14; Erroneous KJV Translation; “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his neme Emmanuel.”

“The Greek word parthenos (παρθένος) is ambiguous but the Hebrew term “Almah”[Unmarried Female] is absolute, and is erroneously translated from Isaiah 7: 14, to Greek in Matthew 1:23; as “virgin,” whereas according to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, the Hebrew term “Almah,” carries the meaning, (Concealment---unmarried female.)”

The word “Virgin” in reference to the mother of Jesus was not introduced until the Latin Bible ‘The Vulgate’ was translated to English, when the Latin word ‘VIRGO’ was translated to Virgin. For just like the early Greek language, the Latin did not have a specific term for ‘VIRGIN’, their word “Virgo” refers to any young woman of marriageable age, whether or not she had previous sexual relations with a man.

In translating the Hebrew words of the prophet Isaiah, that an “Almah” an “unmarried female” would be with child and bear a son,” into Greek, which unlike the Hebrew language, does not have a specific term for ‘virgin,’ the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, correctly used the Greek word ‘Parthenos,’ which carries a basic meaning of ‘girl,’ or unmarried youth, and denotes ‘virgin’ only by implication. To translate something from the Hebrew to the Greek, or from any language to another, one must not lose the essence of the original, and the original was, that “An unmarried woman would be with child.”

The Hebrew have a specific term for 'virgin' which is, 'Bethulah' which word is used in every instance in the OT where a woman is specifically to be seen as a girl who had never had any sexual experience with a man, and the word that Isaiah would have used if it was the Lords intention to State that a virgin would be pregnant, etc.

Go to “A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature,” by David Jeffery. There you will find written, “Many scholars consider the new Revised Standard Version of the King James translation, which is probably the most widely used version of the English bible today, and considered by most modern scholars to be to be the most accurate translation of the Old Testament. It follows the modern consensus in translating ‘Almah’ as ‘Young Woman’ in Isaiah 7: 14.

In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible. A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England, all translate Isaiah 7: 14; “A young Woman is with child, and she will bear a son.”

Also The Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition, with imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon reads, Isaiah 7: 14; “A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc.”

As these religious bodies all now accept that Isaiah was not referring to a virgin in that famous passage, they must now accept that the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, who were forced to use the Greek term “Parthenos” in reference to Isaiah’s prophecy, were in no way implying that the pregnant Mary, was still a virgin.

Matthew 1: 22-23; should now read; ‘Now all this happened to make come true what the Lord had said through the prophet [Isaiah],’ “An unmarried woman/Almah who is pregnant will bear a son and he will be called immanuel: (“which means God is with us.”)

The point of the prophecy is not in the fact that an unmarried woman would bear a son, but that a child conceived out of wedlock (A *******) would be seen as the vessel that the Lord would fill with his spirit, and through whom the Lord would reveal himself to us, (“God is with us.”)

Luke states the child would be born according to the power o/workings of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 4: 29; At that time, the child born according to the flesh [Ishmael] despised and persecuted him, [Isaac] who was born according to God’s promise and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Isaac, who is the prototype of Jesus, was born of a brother/sister relationship and born of God’s promise according to the power/workings of the Holy Spirit, and Isaac was the biological son of Abraham and his half sister Sarah, who were both sired by Terah, as Jesus, who was born of God’s promise according to the power of the Holy Spirit, was the biological son of Joseph and his half sister Mary, who were both sired by Alexander Helios III/Heli.
It’s useful to be reminded of the argument why Mary wasn’t a virgin based on a mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14.

The overall narrative about Mary in both Matthew and Luke supports the authors intention to present her as a virgin. It is possible of course for her to be both a virgin and a young unmarried women.

For most of those who believe in a God that can perform miracles it probably won’t change much. For those who disbelieve in such a God it’s another useful argument.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh. The book of Isaiah is one of the most cited books. I’m wanting to better understand the reasons for and against the fulfilment of certain verses. Anyone with anything sensible and respectful to say is welcome to contribute. Thank you.

Isn't the title a bit redundant?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't the title a bit redundant?
Not for me it isn’t. I suspect many others feel the same.

I know you are not a Muslim but you often think like a Muslim. For many Muslims the gospel and Torah are corrupted and superseded by the Quran.

Is that what you mean?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
WAS MARY REALLY A VIRGIN?

Yes! Right up until the act by which she conceived her first born son, Jesus, who was sired by her half brother, Joseph ben Heli.

:facepalm: Why would anyone suggest that Mary was not as the Bible presents her?

One part of "Christianity" wants to make her out to be 'ever virgin' and another wants to make he out to be pregnant to Joseph before she is married?

Seriously....doesn't the Bible itself tell us what kind of people God chose to raise his son? Would he choose lawbreakers?

Matthew 1:25...."But he [Joseph] did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son, and he named him Jesus."

or as other translations render it....

"but he had no marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son and he called him Jesus ". (Mounce Interlinear)

"but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." (NASB)

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (NIV)

Why would anyone want to suggest a slight on the character of two of the Bible's most admirable people...why would God entrust the upbringing of his son to people who failed his test of acceptability?

Mary was betrothed to Joseph, which according to Jewish custom was as good as being married. Remember that Joseph, when he found out that Mary was pregnant was going to "divorce" her secretly? They were not married, but it would still have required a divorce.

A marriage in Bible times entailed a man taking his betrothed home. Friends and family, along with well wishers, lined the route to convey their congratulations to the bride and groom. There was no ceremony...the betrothal was a binding of the two for their future lives together as husband and wife. The marriage was not consummated until the groom took his bride home.

When Joseph took Mary home, he did not touch he until after Jesus was born. He was a very honorable man, married to a very honorable woman. To suggest anything else is to insult the God who produced his holy son Jesus by his holy spirit.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Are there any prophecies from Isaiah that might refer to the second coming of Christ or another who has been anointed?

I know of none. But I see plenty of verses that describe what life will be like under his rulership.

Paradise Restored! — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I am very fond of the opening verse of Isaiah 2:2-4....

"In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it all the nations will stream.
3 And many peoples will go and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
To the house of the God of Jacob.
He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.”
For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
4 He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore."


These are the verses that speak of the impact that Jesus' teachings would have on many people in the final part of the days....
God will rectify matters on this earth and those coming to Jehovah's mountain to worship will have beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears...never to learn or experience war again.

Since the world has lost its ability to make true peace and security a reality, that is a very comforting thought.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Not for me it isn’t. I suspect many others feel the same.

I know you are not a Muslim but you often think like a Muslim. For many Muslims the gospel and Torah are corrupted and superseded by the Quran.

Is that what you mean?

I'm just actually referring to the title you know Messianic and Christ....
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh. The book of Isaiah is one of the most cited books. I’m wanting to better understand the reasons for and against the fulfilment of certain verses. Anyone with anything sensible and respectful to say is welcome to contribute. Thank you.
I'd have to go back and read the whole of Isaiah before I could say whether any of the passages in it are messianic, so I'll pass on that one.

However, some Christians like to assert that the 'Suffering Servant' passages in Isaiah 52-53 refer to Jesus. In fact the 'Suffering Servant' is the nation of Israel, none of the passages involved is messianic, and like everything else in the Tanakh they're not prophecies of Jesus.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I’m wanting to better understand the reasons for and against the fulfilment of certain verses.
When we realize YHVH said it will 'become' ('our Salvation') 'Yeshua' (Exodus 15:2-3, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2)...

Then when YHVH/Yeshua is talking, Isaiah is all about the coming of the Messianic age in someway.

The references H3444 is the symbolic essence of the Lord's Salvation (Yeshua), which then makes it all become a lot more explanatory.

The clearest specific reference of this is from the start of the Isaiah 53 passage in Isaiah 52:10, where we will see the salvation from God appearing in the form of an 'anointed' son of man...

There is an additional yod in the dead sea scrolls on the word blemished in Isaiah 52:14, which then makes the word 'my anointed' or 'i anointed'.

So Isaiah 53 is literally about Yeshua Elohim, being the anointed one in the form of a son of man.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh. The book of Isaiah is one of the most cited books. I’m wanting to better understand the reasons for and against the fulfilment of certain verses. Anyone with anything sensible and respectful to say is welcome to contribute. Thank you.


By Christ you mean the eternal Christ who will reign forever. There are many.
bottom line He is the one who takes you from having sins as scarlet to being white as snow

He is the root of Jesse (David's father) who the nations (aka non Jews) will hope in
He is the one who the government will rest on His shoulders (even Solomon's kingdom split)
He is the one who is El Gibor (mighty man and mighty God)
He is the one who won't blow out a smoldering wick or break a bent leaf being gentle
He is the one who will sprinkle nations and shut the mouths of kings
He is the high one who dwells with the lowly contrite humble (and opens pure mouths)
He is the servant(singular) in ch 40-53 who has a posterity of servants (plural) in ch 54-66
He is the bridegroom behind the wedding language in the last chapters

And of course in Isaiah 53 it is said over 7 time each that he will be rejected, suffer, die and overcome death. It is no wonder that Isaiah is the 2nd most quoted Old Testament book in the New testament
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
I’ve heard some Jews propose the gospel writers use of the Tanakh as a whole to create legend and myth around a Jewish historic figure like Jesus. In other words a real person has been created into the main character for Christians. Verses such as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 would be relevant. Matthew would be the gospel that has the most references to the Tanakh, over 60 in total. Three of those refer to the second Isaiah.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

In my own study of Matthew I looked at multiple explicit references in just the first five chapters...most I thought were a little or a lot taken out of context. This seems to demonstrate the knowledge of an inspired but imperfect author.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I've made a flow-chart for decoding Christian-claimed Messianic prophecies.

upload_2018-10-13_22-22-16.png
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In my own study of Matthew I looked at multiple explicit references in just the first five chapters...most I thought were a little or a lot taken out of context. This seems to demonstrate the knowledge of an inspired but imperfect author.

The genealogy is certainly has inconsistencies and is likely to be theological rather than historic. For example the genealogy of Matthew 1 appears to have a central purpose to focus our attention on the Eternal Covenant of God? The genealogy begins with Abraham and ends with Jesus, with David and the Babylonian exile being the other landmarks. Therefore we consider the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, the consequences for the Hebrew people of abandoning those Covenants culminating in the Babylonian exile along with the promise of a New Covenant (Daniel 9:23-27, Jeremiah 31:31). In that way it suggests Jesus came to fulfil the Old Covenant and bring the New Covenant (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 22:20). If we're taking it literally or as an accurate history it detracts from its central purpose IMHO.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Some verses refer to Christ while others refer to His return. The description however of the one read at Christmas refers word for word to Baha’u’llah if you are familiar with His Cause and claims.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Some verses refer to Christ while others refer to His return. The description however of the one read at Christmas refers word for word to Baha’u’llah if you are familiar with His Cause and claims.

We've gotta walk before we can run lol. All the Christians so far believe all the Messianic verses of Isaiah relate to the first coming of Jesus and not the second. I personally think there's overlap...

There are verses in the bible that relate to BOTH Jesus coming AND His return.

An example is Isaiah 40:3-5
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

These verses were clearly relevant to the coming of Christ and specifically John the Baptist (the return of Elijah).

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

But we also find reference to similar versea in the book of revelation in regards Christ's second coming.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:7

In regards the clouds, Christ makes mention of these in the Olivet discourse.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

But these very signs are those the Jews would have expected as they are mentioned in Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The signs in regards the heavenly bodies that Jesus spoke with his return in Matthew 24:29 are also part of the text in Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 24:23 and Isaiah 34:4

These are all signs that accompanied Christ's advent and also the Returned Christ.

That was the point of my thread. Do you think I was being a little too subtle lol?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
But these very signs are those the Jews would have expected as they are mentioned in Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
No, we would not. Daniel is describing events that he sees happening in his present, not the future. Clouds are not a sign of the Messiah, they're used here to contrast the origin of the Messiah, with the beasts that come from the depths of the sea in the earlier part of the chapter. They're not being given as a sign of the Messiah, so there is no reason why we would expect clouds when the Messiah's advent.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The genealogy is certainly has inconsistencies and is likely to be theological rather than historic. For example the genealogy of Matthew 1 appears to have a central purpose to focus our attention on the Eternal Covenant of God? The genealogy begins with Abraham and ends with Jesus, with David and the Babylonian exile being the other landmarks. Therefore we consider the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, the consequences for the Hebrew people of abandoning those Covenants culminating in the Babylonian exile along with the promise of a New Covenant (Daniel 9:23-27, Jeremiah 31:31). In that way it suggests Jesus came to fulfil the Old Covenant and bring the New Covenant (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 22:20). If we're taking it literally or as an accurate history it detracts from its central purpose IMHO.

Re-reading Matthew 1 now I see just how ironic it is that Matthew ends the whole patrilineal genealogy with "...Joseph, the husband of Mary..." who is Jesus' mother. But if God put the seed in Mary what did Abraham through Joseph have to do with it?

And also it is suggestive that Joseph has a father named Jacob...remind you of anyone (from Genesis)?
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I just have a bit of a nitpick here. Christ means anointed, so it's like saying 'There are messianich verses but none refer to the messiah', which is just weird.
Yes and no. While messiah(moshiach), or anointed one, and Christ is also an anointed one, there is also a major difference. The Jewish concept of moshiach has no savior or atonement requirement whereas the term Christ requires those.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes and no. While messiah(moshiach), or anointed one, and Christ is also an anointed one, there is also a major difference. The Jewish concept of moshiach has no savior or atonement requirement whereas the term Christ requires those.
This is correct, but on a purely logical basis the words are intended to mean the same thing. He should have put 'Jesus'.
 
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