Which One do you think is more faithful and loyal ?

[LuisDantas]

Not always true

Not when applied to Philippines politicians.

Or to slave owners. Or ambitious people in general. Or inconsequential people of many kinds. Or so many others.

 

[Iti oj]

History shows one answer to.be wrong.

 

[Sabour]

That is something I just can't bring myself to believe. A person who has no intention to do good is an ill person.

I agree. But "ill" people do exist.

Belief in God will not make him or her any less of an ill person, at least directly.

Yep, not directly, but through trying to avoid punishment as much as he can.

It may well lead the person into environment with better encouragement and healthier company, however. That may well be helpful.

Belief in God in and of itself, though? Hardly.

Such a person is far more likely to interpret God in a way to justify his or her worst behaviors than to somehow improve out of belief in God.

I don't think that anyone who tries to justify what he is doing using religion is not aware that he is actually doing the exact opposite. My concern is what God tells us to do, not what sick minds want to interpret it the way they want.

That, too, sounds unlikely or at least unconvincing. It amounts to saying that a self-interested motivation is morally more productive than an altruistic one.

Or you can interpret it as teaching the person that he can be good to people in every single moment he lives. For example, smiling in the face of the stranger you don't know and greeting anyone you pass by. These are two concepts I learned to do when becoming a practicing Muslim. I was a good person before and I had respect for everyone. But becoming a practicing muslim took this to a different level. Something much higher.

But if you want to view it as you described, well there are many different styles and each one is motivated in a different way. Essentially, a religion must bring the best out of everyone.

When wisely practiced that is true. Not always, alas.

So religions are not to be blamed. Individuals are.

Uh, sorry, that is simply not at all true.

I've seen it happen brother

 

[Sabour]

Not always true

Not when applied to Philippines politicians.

Politicians have political agendas disguised by religious confirmation. Which is not a confirmation.

 

[BSM1]

There are two kind of persons.

1st: The one who believe in the existence of God
2nd: Who Doesn't believe in the existence of God.

Which One do you think is more faithful and loyal towards others and why ?

It's a jump ball, C. It always depends on the individual.

 

[kashmir]

The second. He knows that there is no Higher Power protecting us, and therefore that is our own duty and need.

How does people like stalin, the crooked leaders of non religious countries, such as N Korea and China, and sicko's like Jeffery Dalhmer that said he did what he did because there was no god to hold him accountable, and many of the guards who tortured Jews, that also said there was no God to hold them accountable either, fit into that sort of logic you are suggesting?

I agree with the majority here, depends on the person, titles say nothing about loyalty.

Might as well ask...
Who do you trust more, blondes or redheads, left handed or right handed people, blue eyes or green eyes, tall people or short people?

 

[edwinic]

Politicians have political agendas disguised by religious confirmation. Which is not a confirmation.

The basketball ring has moved.

believing in God brings out the best of us, no matter who we are

 

[Altfish]

The first.

If the person has no intention to do good, believing that God exists would prevent him from doing bad things towards people for his knowledge that God exists and he will be accountable for all his actions.

If the person has the intention to do good, believing that God exists would take this intention to a much higher level because he knows that he would be rewarded for every single good deed he goes.

Let's not forget that all religions are about peace and loving each other.

So believing in God brings out the best of us, no matter who we are.

But don't most religions have repentance or confession? So you can be evil all week, turn up at your place of worship and be exonerated.

I am a non-believer, I do good because it pleases other people, it pleases me too; I don't do good because I fear a higher power or punishment in an after-life.

Which peaceful religion did Fred Phelps or the 9/11 bombers belong to?

I would like some evidence to back up your assertion that "...believing in God brings out the best of us, no matter who we are." because I see too much evidence to the contrary.

 

[kashmir]

believing in God brings out the best of us, no matter who we are." because I see too much evidence to the contrary.

The exact same thing can be said for non-believers too.
:yes:

Billions and Billions of people on this planet...
Einie minie Minie moe.....which one is moral and perfect head to toe.
not a one, not a one..its time to go.

 

[Altfish]

The exact same thing can be said for non-believers too.

But, I wasn't addressing non-believers, I was answering an assertion made by 'One-answer'.

Yes, non-believers do bad things; but few do those bad things in the name of their non-belief.

What I am trying to say is that believing in a deity does not put you on a higher moral plane than a non-believer.

As Steven Weinberg said, “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

 

[Sabour]

Well first Thank you Altfish for approaching the subject in such a manner. I am used to being attacked lol. Anyways here is my answer.

But don't most religions have repentance or confession?

What is meant by confession? I didn't understand?

Repentance grants us forgiveness.

But what is the meaning to repent?

1-To be true about it.
2- Stop doing it again.
3- You have to regret it. Like you don't say I used to steal ,,,, wow they were good old days. You have to regret doing it.
4- Decide not to go back to the same sin in the future
5- If you can return the rights to people you have done damage do, you should

So it is not like okay let us do this and that and than we will repent. God know what is inside of us. For example, if you give money for the poor to be viewed a good person this won't be accepted. So things don't go in the way you describe.

I am a non-believer, I do good because it pleases other people, it pleases me too;

I am a believer and I have the same reasons plus, but not all people have that mentality. Some do need to know that punishment exists so they would stay out of trouble.

Which peaceful religion did Fred Phelps or the 9/11 bombers belong to?

Whenever I face such comments, I like to refer to this video

I would like some evidence to back up your assertion that "...believing in God brings out the best of us, no matter who we are." because I see too much evidence to the contrary.

Well okay first in our five pillars of Islam, there is "Zakat" which is money we must give to the poor in case our salary was more than a certain away. The rate is 2.5 %. There is Fasting Ramadan also which its main purpose is to remember the poor.

Now let us take a look at some verses in the Quraan.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

41:34-36

34 And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend.

35 But none is granted it except those who are patient, and none is granted it except one having a great portion [of good].

36 And if there comes to you from Satan an evil suggestion, then seek refuge in Allah . Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

6:108 And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.

5:8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.


I hope you also take time to read my comment number 16 in the thread Righteous

 

[kashmir]

But, I wasn't addressing non-believers, I was answering an assertion made by 'One-answer'.

Yes, non-believers do bad things; but few do those bad things in the name of their non-belief.

What I am trying to say is that believing in a deity does not put you on a higher moral plane than a non-believer.

As Steven Weinberg said, “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Does it even matter why anyone does bad things?
This ironic justification some atheists try to make is mind boggling.
"when we do bad things, its not in the name of a non-belief"
"your honor, my client robbed a bank, but he is atheist, its not as bad as the religious guy who robbed a bank too and asked for forgiveness last sunday"

What the heck does that even mean?

that weinberg quote doesn't even make sense either, its just a redundant paradox of words.
If religious people do evil things, they are not good to begin with.
The only reason atheists like that quote is because it seems like atheists are less evil for being evil too by adding a paradox to the end of the statement.

I could twist that to make atheists seem the exact same way, as like with Jeffery Dalmer, who said he did those horrible things, because there was no god to hold him accountable.
Want me to actually produce the statement?

Frankly, you seem like the one trying to put atheists on some higher moral plane, so you really have no justification to point fingers at religious people for doing it too.

It's like you are saying, atheists and religious people both can be evil or good, but religious are more evil then us because when we do evil things, its because we want to, not because we have twisted the word of god to do them

One last point.
A kid that shoots up a school is evil, and a terrorist that blows up innocent people is evil too.
Is one actually less evil to you?

 

[Sabour]

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

I disagree, good people will never do evil things. They either understand the religion well and see it doesn't promote evil things. Or they turn to atheists because they think religion is promoting evil.


Those who are doing evil are disguising their acts in the name of religion. Their motives are purely political. Let me add that they have a good skill of taking skills out of context, which religion must not be blamed for. Actually, religion is totally against what they are doing

 

[Altfish]

Grief !
I've set the hare running here, haven't I?

Too many posts to answer quickly as I'm at work and can take a minute or twos break but this will take an age to comment/clarify and explain. The trouble is, there will probably have been many more made by then!

But I must quickly address one comment you made One-answer, "I am used to being attacked" - why did you think I was attacking you? It certainly wasn't meant as an 'attack' it was meant as a reasoned response to your post.

 

[kashmir]

As Steven Weinberg said, “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

believers and non-believers can be good or evil, but it takes the non-belief in god for a good person to do evil, because there is no god to hold him accountable. :yes:
same exact quote Weinberg said, only turned around, and holds the same merit as his quote. none what so ever, but it sure sounds just as good.

Question, why do some atheists claim to be free thinkers, yet quote some of the most redundant, over used and pointless phrases of other atheists, without even realizing the paradox in the quote and thinking for themselves?

Odd.

 

[Altfish]

believers and non-believers can be good or evil, but it takes the non-belief in god for a good person to do evil, because there is no god to hold him accountable. :yes:
same exact quote Weinberg said, only turned around, and holds the same merit as his quote. none what so ever, but it sure sounds just as good.

Question, why do some atheists claim to be free thinkers, yet quote some of the most redundant, over used and pointless phrases of other atheists, without even realizing the paradox in the quote and thinking for themselves?

Odd.

Oh dear, you misunderstand Steven Weinberg's quote.
An example of what Wenberg's quote is relating to....let's us take (as just one example) the assassination of George Tiller. Tiller was killed during a Sunday morning service at his church, Reformation Lutheran Church, where he was serving as an usher. He was killed by Scott Roeder someone who had become very religious in the sense that he finally – he was reading the Bible. But then, after he was divorced, his religion took on a whole new right wing of itself.
Roeder believed he was good and doing god's work and would be guaranteed his place in heaven.
A non-believer carrying out a similar crime (and I'm not denying there are plenty) would not be expecting redemption and a place in heaven.
Another good example is Abraham in the Bible; he was a good man but was willing to sacrifice/murder his son Isaac because he thought that god was asking him to do so. There is little difference between Abram and Roeder apart from the fact that in the story of Abraham God provided a goat.

If quoting someone else stops one from being a Free Thinker we are all in a bad way; there are many people who can express things much more clearly than my grasp of English could ever achieve and to refer to them can help a discussion.

I do think it funny when an atheist is accused of, "...quote some of the most redundant, over used and pointless phrases of other atheists, without even realizing the paradox in the quote and thinking for themselves?" when I have already had verse after verse of scriptures quoted at me

 

[Sabour]

Grief !
I've set the hare running here, haven't I?

Too many posts to answer quickly as I'm at work and can take a minute or twos break but this will take an age to comment/clarify and explain. The trouble is, there will probably have been many more made by then!

But I must quickly address one comment you made One-answer, "I am used to being attacked" - why did you think I was attacking you? It certainly wasn't meant as an 'attack' it was meant as a reasoned response to your post.

Oh no lol.

I didn't say you are attacking me, what I meant is Thank you for not attacking me ( Or Islam) ... I suggest you reread when you finish working

 

[Altfish]

Oh no lol.

I didn't say you are attacking me, what I meant is Thank you for not attacking me ( Or Islam) ... I suggest you reread when you finish working

Ah, apologies, I understand, not a matter of re-reading, just a slightly ambiguous sentence (if you don't mind me saying)

 

[Sabour]

Ah, apologies, I understand, not a matter of re-reading, just a slightly ambiguous sentence (if you don't mind me saying)

Yep my bad, I reread it and noticed that. Excuse me, Arabic is my native language and not English

 

[Altfish]

I disagree, good people will never do evil things. They either understand the religion well and see it doesn't promote evil things. Or they turn to atheists because they think religion is promoting evil.


Those who are doing evil are disguising their acts in the name of religion. Their motives are purely political. Let me add that they have a good skill of taking skills out of context, which religion must not be blamed for. Actually, religion is totally against what they are doing

Well, ok, you are redefining the meaning of a religious person for me. I know it is a bit tired, but I am sure that the anti-abortionists murderers; jihadists; gay bashers; etc; etc all believe they are good religious people and will get their reward in heaven (or wherever they believe they are heading).

What I am saying is, take the religious justification/reward away and would they still carry out the crime? Some maybe, but without the promise of 72 virgins it wouldn't seem as attractive.