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Which religion has the best fruit?

idea

Question Everything
It means you are generalizing from too small a sampling. This is why anecdotes are never evidence.

When I was in the Mormon church serving as a records keeper, a homeless girl came to our meeting. I collected her information as I did all new people to the area... She ended up living with us for almost a year, with no help from the church. Other churches in the area gave her an old car, but it was secular help that got her back on her feet. She is not the only homeless person I have gone through the system with.

I work with a very large organization, in the bible belt. I've seen who helps.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The issue is not only about prevalence but also how it is addressed. Society at large tends to be more prone to persecute pedophiles than religious communities.
That is not what I've found to be the case at all.

1. Taking pedophilia seriously is something very new in history. If you go back to, say, the 1950s in the US, what you found is people denying it happened, and minimizing it when they admitted it. That was across the board, religious, nominal, and non-religious people alike. If little Suzy told Mommy that Daddy was... Mommy would smack her and tell her to stop lying. Today, thank goodness, the culture is gradually changing, but there are still many living in the past. Even today, only 50-70% of police reports made result in prosecution.

2. All institutions, whether they are religious or secular, protect themselves from scandal. All of them. In every case of pedophilia being made known, whether it was Little League, or Boy Scouts, or USA Gymnastics, or a school, the leaders of the institution circled the wagons and covered it up. All of them.
Religious groups often view themselves as self-regulating entities and may not adhere to mandated reporting requirements, believing instead in priest–penitent privilege. Most religious communities are male-dominated hierarchies, protecting males, hiding and perpetuating abuse. In contrast, the secular world has mandated reporting laws and makes efforts to address and prevent such issues.
All this is good. And we should add that religious institutions have gotten on board with this as well. I'll address the Catholic church since that scandal is the best known. The CC in the US now requires every person working for it, paid or volunteer, to complete a course in recognizing and reporting abuse. They run background checks on every worker, both paid and volunteer. Any priest or church worker credibly accused of abuse is permanently removed from ministry. Allegations of abuse must be reported to civil authorities. No place will ever be 100% safe, but I'd say that right now, the Catholic Church is probably one of the safest places for a kid to be.
By far, the most charity is provided through secular governments, not religious groups.
Excuse me? The government is paid for by the tax dollars of everyone, both secular AND religious. Our representatives are voted for by everyone, both secular AND religious. Government workers are both secular AND religious. I'm sorry, but you don't get to claim government aid as a ribbon for secular people.

If you really want compare, show me the atheist organizations that give heavily to charity. Does American Atheists give generously to feed the poor? Does the Freedom From Religion Foundation raise funds to house the homeless? Does the Secular Coalition for America visit the old and sick?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
When I was in the Mormon church serving as a records keeper, a homeless girl came to our meeting. I collected her information as I did all new people to the area... She ended up living with us for almost a year, with no help from the church. Other churches in the area gave her an old car, but it was secular help that got her back on her feet. She is not the only homeless person I have gone through the system with.

I work with a very large organization, in the bible belt. I've seen who helps.
You are repeating the same logical error, so I will repeat the same response:
It means you are generalizing from too small a sampling. This is why anecdotes are never evidence.

Since we are flinging around anecdotes (which prove nothing) let me counter with a couple of my own.

In the last town where I lived, there was an interfaith food bank. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus... everyone helped stock it and keep it running.

In the town where I currently live, there is an interdenominational homeless assistance program. Each participating church houses the men for two weeks out of the year, so that no one church gets overwhelmed. They not only provide clean and safe housing, but assistance with resumes and job searches, so that these men can actually get OUT of homelessness.

Does this mean all churches are this lovely? Of course not. Like I said, anecdotes are worthless. There are plenty of people, both religious and secular, who really don't give a rats about those who suffer. Nevertheless, the statistics hold true: people who are devoutly religious are more inclined to be generous.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There are quantifiable, measurable, data that can be seen from these.

Love: what religious group runs the most homeless shelters? Which group donates the most to hospitals? Whose members have given what they have to the poor and follow Jesus, living without excess sacrificing - showing love to all? (Has to be legit charity, NOT missionary fake charity - but real - like paying hospital bills)

Joy: which religious group isn't on anti-depressants? Which group has the least number of suicides? Which group's meetings are filled with the most laughter and dancing?

Self-control: which group has the fewest overweight members? Which group has the most educated people? The least alcoholics? The least living in debt?

Words are cheap.

I'm interested in data.

If anyone can show their group is the best in the world for something like the above, show me the research, show me the data, and I'll be interested in learning more about your group.
It's not a competition about statistics, it is a way of life.

Regards Tony
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
There are quantifiable, measurable, data that can be seen from these.

Love: what religious group runs the most homeless shelters? Which group donates the most to hospitals? Whose members have given what they have to the poor and follow Jesus, living without excess sacrificing - showing love to all? (Has to be legit charity, NOT missionary fake charity - but real - like paying hospital bills)

Joy: which religious group isn't on anti-depressants? Which group has the least number of suicides? Which group's meetings are filled with the most laughter and dancing?

Self-control: which group has the fewest overweight members? Which group has the most educated people? The least alcoholics? The least living in debt?

Words are cheap.

I'm interested in data.

If anyone can show their group is the best in the world for something like the above, show me the research, show me the data, and I'll be interested in learning more about your group.

So if one virtuous person lives in a society full of corrupt people, but belongs to the same religious group as the rest according to the statistics.
Does that make the person's religion not good enough?

If you find a group that fits best all these expectations you've established for yourself to measure which religion is the most "fruitful", and this becomes common knowledge, it's likely a matter of time until many belonging to that group will grow arrogant, complacent, and jealous.
This always seems to happen in my experience.
The "religious" identity won't change per sé, but the people will.
 

idea

Question Everything
So if one virtuous person lives in a society full of corrupt people, but belongs to the same religious group as the rest according to the statistics.
Does that make the person's religion not good enough?

If you find a group that fits best all these expectations you've established for yourself to measure which religion is the most "fruitful", and this becomes common knowledge, it's likely a matter of time until many belonging to that group will grow arrogant, complacent, and jealous.
This always seems to happen in my experience.
The "religious" identity won't change per sé, but the people will.

Exactly. Groupthink doesn't work. Even if one day one group achieved something cool, it wouldn't last. Pride, contention with other groups, arguments with other groups - groupthink will never work.

Data reveals that no single group has divine authority, no group has a monopoly on good fruits; rather, the greatest welfare and love emerge when we transcend group identities and work together in a secular, collective effort. True benevolence is found not in individual factions but in our unified, shared commitment to the common good. Humanism.

We must elevate the welfare of all above the interests of any single group; only by valuing every human being equally, seeing everyone as individuals- no groupthink - can we break free from the chains of war, envy, and hatred.

"Not affiliated" wins :)
 
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Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Groupthink doesn't work. Even if one day one group achieved something cool, it wouldn't last. Pride, contention with other groups, arguments with other groups - groupthink will never work.

Data reveals that no single group has divine authority, no group has a monopoly on good fruits; rather, the greatest welfare and love emerge when we transcend group identities and work together in a secular, collective effort. True benevolence is found not in individual factions but in our unified, shared commitment to the common good. Humanism.

We must elevate the welfare of all above the interests of any single group; only by valuing every human being equally, seeing everyone as individuals- no groupthink - can we break free from the chains of war, envy, and hatred.

"Not affiliated" wins :)

What do words such as "secular" and "Humanism" mean to you?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Post the accomplishments of your chosen group

Im atheist, no group and no god but even though i say so myself i grow some pretty amazing strawberries with a good supply from may until October.
Today i picked a load of black muscat grapes (very sweet and juicy) I'll be making several jars of grape jelly.
And the the figs are coming on nicely but it may just get to cold before they're ready to eat. Still, you cant win them all.

You did mean that sort of fruit didn't you?

Oh yes, and it's been
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Post the accomplishments of your chosen group

I'm atheist, no group and no god but even though i say so myself i grow some pretty amazing charlotte strawberries with a good supply from may until October.
Today i picked a load of black muscat grapes (very sweet and juicy) I'll be making several jars of grape jelly.
And the the figs are coming on nicely but it may just get to cold before they're ready to eat. Still, you cant win them all.

You did mean that sort of fruit didn't you?

Oh yes, and it's been shown that the people who have most birthdays live longer
 

idea

Question Everything
What do words such as "secular" and "Humanism" mean to you?

Secular: By the people for the people, everyone paying their taxes, everyone pitching in for welfare. Secularism is the dance of collective responsibility where each person, in harmony with others, contributes to the well-being of all, free from the shadows of divine mandate.

Humanism - for humans - one world, under the best interest of humans, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Humanism is the celebration of our boundless potential and intrinsic worth.

Im atheist, no group and no god but even though i say so myself i grow some pretty amazing strawberries with a good supply from may until October.
Today i picked a load of black muscat grapes (very sweet and juicy) I'll be making several jars of grape jelly.
And the the figs are coming on nicely but it may just get to cold before they're ready to eat. Still, you cant win them all.

You did mean that sort of fruit didn't you?

Oh yes, and it's been

Strawberries can be challenging to grow, sounds like a divine spread :)
 

idea

Question Everything
Way if life is a personal choice. The best way to live our life is given by God by Annointed Messengers.

Regards Tony

The best way to live our life is given by anything that invites understanding, love, and connection for all.

god is not God who who only chooses a little flock, who only cares for one small group.

3:16 For humans so loved one another that they joined together to take care of each other, that whosoever should live on this Earth should feel loved and cared for.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The best way to live our life is given by anything that invites understanding, love, and connection for all.

god is not God who who only chooses a little flock, who only cares for one small group.

3:16 For humans so loved one another that they joined together to take care of each other, that whosoever should live on this Earth should feel loved and cared for.
Which is the advice I talk about.

Regards Tony
 

idea

Question Everything
Which is the advice I talk about.

Regards Tony

I noticed that your profile indicates you're Baha'i rather than not affiliated. While the Baha'i Faith does aim to unify various religious beliefs, it unfortunately has a hierarchical structure centered around Baha'u'llah, which which makes it an authoritarian group. Personally, I prefer to avoid hierarchical systems, as I believe they can lead to groupthink and tribalism over individual thought and personal freedom of individual beliefs. I support "by the people, for the people" systems rather than "by the dictator/prophet/king, for the authoritarian leader" type systems.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I noticed that your profile indicates you're Baha'i rather than not affiliated. While the Baha'i Faith does aim to unify various religious beliefs, it unfortunately has a hierarchical structure centered around Baha'u'llah, which which makes it an authoritarian group. Personally, I prefer to avoid hierarchical systems, as I believe they can lead to groupthink and tribalism over individual thought and personal freedom of individual beliefs. I support "by the people, for the people" systems rather than "by the dictator/prophet/king, for the authoritarian leader" type systems.
I can understand why you take that path. My issues in life are that I am very self opinionated, that by its very nature, that very self is very divisive. Thus the freedom.of thought needs moderation. Baha'u'llah has told us that Liberty is a pernicious influence, we must be able to submit to the good of the whole and that submission requires us to embrace a code of laws. The wisdom of this is unfolding in Nations who's desire for liberty is eroding their unity as a nation.

We have to submit to a global Authority that will enact the laws set for all humanity, which will be elected by the people of all Nations.

The rule of Dictatorships and Kings and Queens has been abolished in the Message of Baha’u’llah and no Messenger wants to rule, that is entirely up to humanity. What Baha'u'llah has given (and past mMessemgers gave), is the foundation of the required morals and values that need to be embraced by humanity for us to live in peace and harmony with our environment.

Regards Tony
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I noticed that your profile indicates you're Baha'i rather than not affiliated. While the Baha'i Faith does aim to unify various religious beliefs, it unfortunately has a hierarchical structure centered around Baha'u'llah, which which makes it an authoritarian group. Personally, I prefer to avoid hierarchical systems, as I believe they can lead to groupthink and tribalism over individual thought and personal freedom of individual beliefs. I support "by the people, for the people" systems rather than "by the dictator/prophet/king, for the authoritarian leader" type systems.
I am a great supporter of democracy. But there are also other areas of life that you really do NOT want some sort of averaging of opinions. For example, I don't base my understanding of physics on the sum total of what people believe. Rather, I look to those geniuses such as Newton, Einstein, and Hawking, and others. IOW, there are times when you want experts, not common wisdom. The only question that remains is this: when it comes to religion, are we better off looking for an average, common view? Or are we better off learning from some sort of spiritual genius?
 

idea

Question Everything
That is not what I've found to be the case at all.

1. Taking pedophilia seriously is something very new in history. If you go back to, say, the 1950s in the US, what you found is people denying it happened, and minimizing it when they admitted it. That was across the board, religious, nominal, and non-religious people alike. If little Suzy told Mommy that Daddy was... Mommy would smack her and tell her to stop lying. Today, thank goodness, the culture is gradually changing, but there are still many living in the past. Even today, only 50-70% of police reports made result in prosecution.

2. All institutions, whether they are religious or secular, protect themselves from scandal. All of them. In every case of pedophilia being made known, whether it was Little League, or Boy Scouts, or USA Gymnastics, or a school, the leaders of the institution circled the wagons and covered it up. All of them.

...

Today's news:

The Mormon church was where I experienced abuse - called by god - believed leaders were actually called by god. It doesn't sink in until its your kids. Until you get the phone call from the detective.

Thank God for secular court systems, he's in jail - the one who hurt my kids is now in jail, despite being protected by the church...

So many other cases out there. For others going through this - know your church friends are NOT your friends. Choose who you confide in carefully. The stranger down the street in police station - confide to police, NOT to anyone at church.
 

idea

Question Everything
I am a great supporter of democracy. But there are also other areas of life that you really do NOT want some sort of averaging of opinions. For example, I don't base my understanding of physics on the sum total of what people believe. Rather, I look to those geniuses such as Newton, Einstein, and Hawking, and others. IOW, there are times when you want experts, not common wisdom. The only question that remains is this: when it comes to religion, are we better off looking for an average, common view? Or are we better off learning from some sort of spiritual genius?

Yes, checks and balances, the laws of physics apply. The best system involves a democracy with an educated population.

Separation of church and school. Secular education is the other essential ingredient to create good fruit.

Education - we follow data, we follow logic, NOT people. Newton, Einstein - they are great, but just people. Have to try experiments for ourself, educate with multiple sources, and rely on our own experiences.

Spiritual leaders?? If someone went through war, survived unspeakable things, that gives them clout - but we each must be captain of our own ship - no one else knows our circumstance, no one else guides us - have to guide ourselves, study for ourself.

No such thing as a spiritual leader. There are cult leaders, yes.... There are those who reveal partoal truths, but study it for yourself, use balanced approach, no single teacher, no single leader. Heirarchies are evil. Religious or political Heirarchies - one person calling the shots? Evil.

By the people.
Not by king, dictator, prophet, or pope.

The best systems out there are by the people. Secular.
 
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