Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

[URAVIP2ME]

Isiah 14:21
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
Leviticus 26:39
And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
There are contradictions in the bible. And this is one of the most glaring and undeniable ones.

The 14th chapter of Isaiah is dealing against the king of Babylon and Babylon's overthrow. Isaiah 14:21 is the orders of the conquering Medes and Persians. They are the ' you men ' preparing for the ' sons ' ( Not minor children ). The fall of Babylon would be permanent. In other words, the Babylonian dynasty would be rooted out forever. Future generations of Babylon would suffer because of the error their father's made. They would suffer the bad consequences made by their fathers. That prideful spirit found in Babylon is a reflection of Satan's pride causing suffering for the ' sons ' of mankind.

Lev. 26:39 is giving the result or bad consequences for disobedience. The iniquities or lawlessness of their fathers would pine away or rot away with the fathers. In other words, the sons or future generations would Not pine or rot away because of the errors of the fathers. In the iniquities of their fathers shall the father's iniquities pine or rot away with the fathers.

Exodus 20:5 the 3rd or 4th generations as in meaning the troubles that the father's caused could or would affect not only children but grand or great-grand children. Not that God caused the trouble, but disobeying God was causing the troubles. Also please notice that would not go on through all generations. Remember Jesus will undo all the troubles caused by all nations - Rev. 22:2

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The 14th chapter of Isaiah is dealing against the king of Babylon and Babylon's overthrow. Isaiah 14:21 is the orders of the conquering Medes and Persians. They are the ' you men ' preparing for the ' sons ' ( Not minor children ). The fall of Babylon would be permanent. In other words, the Babylonian dynasty would be rooted out forever. Future generations of Babylon would suffer because of the error their father's made. They would suffer the bad consequences made by their fathers. That prideful spirit found in Babylon is a reflection of Satan's pride causing suffering for the ' sons ' of mankind.

I am aware of the contexts. It does not change the fact that god laid up the slaughter of descendants of people he didn't like. End of story. It doesn't have to mean children it means that he killed them because of their ancestors doing.

Exodus 20:5 the 3rd or 4th generations as in meaning the troubles that the father's caused could or would affect not only children but grand or great-grand children. Not that God caused the trouble, but disobeying God was causing the troubles. Also please notice that would not go on through all generations. Remember Jesus will undo all the troubles caused by all nations - Rev. 22:2

This is not the universal understanding of this verse and it seems to be far reaching at best in terms of how much rationalization is needed to pull out of it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am aware of the contexts. It does not change the fact that god laid up the slaughter of descendants of people he didn't like. End of story. It doesn't have to mean children it means that he killed them because of their ancestors doing.
This is not the universal understanding of this verse and it seems to be far reaching at best in terms of how much rationalization is needed to pull out of it.

What slaughter of descendants of people are you referring ?
Each stands on their own. Sometimes descendants suffer because of their fathers or grandfather's bad choices.
God acted for the sake of the righteous so that the righteous would Not be removed from the earth.
Only the upright will remain - Proverbs 2 vs 21,22

Since parents are responsible for minor children - 1st Cor. 7:14 - that is why the Flood included even minors.
We do Not know the point of No return because we can not read hearts of when people are past the point of repentance.
According to Revelation 19:11 Jesus' war is a righteous war. Meaning No one righteous will be eliminated.
Since Jesus can read hearts - Isaiah 11vs 3,4 - then Jesus will know the ' cut off ' time of everlasting cutting off.
Just as the Flood, etc. was a divine execution for the sake of the righteous so too will be the soon coming ' time of separation ' taking place on earth - Matthew 25 vs 31,32. Only those judged by Jesus as wicked will be executed by the words from Jesus' mouth - Rev. 19:15 It is the wicked who will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7; Jeremiah 25 vs 31-33
That means the whole earth will end up filled with only righteous people living by the Golden Rule. - Rev. 22:2

 

[Monk Of Reason]

What slaughter of descendants of people are you referring ?
Each stands on their own. Sometimes descendants suffer because of their fathers or grandfather's bad choices.
God acted for the sake of the righteous so that the righteous would Not be removed from the earth.
Only the upright will remain - Proverbs 2 vs 21,22

Since parents are responsible for minor children - 1st Cor. 7:14 - that is why the Flood included even minors.
We do Not know the point of No return because we can not read hearts of when people are past the point of repentance.
According to Revelation 19:11 Jesus' war is a righteous war. Meaning No one righteous will be eliminated.
Since Jesus can read hearts - Isaiah 11vs 3,4 - then Jesus will know the ' cut off ' time of everlasting cutting off.
Just as the Flood, etc. was a divine execution for the sake of the righteous so too will be the soon coming ' time of separation ' taking place on earth - Matthew 25 vs 31,32. Only those judged by Jesus as wicked will be executed by the words from Jesus' mouth - Rev. 19:15 It is the wicked who will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7; Jeremiah 25 vs 31-33
That means the whole earth will end up filled with only righteous people living by the Golden Rule. - Rev. 22:2

I see you still don't get how you're giving god a free pass to murder children or pretty much anyone at this point. So many different times in the bible he has killed people, lots of people, to further goals that often had little to do with what he had planned. He was pissed that the world became sinful even though it was part of his plan to have humans fall, so he destroyed them all with a giant flood. (doubtful it ever happened but for the sake of argument let's say this is legitimate). Then he murder's all of the first born in Egypt to prove a point? A point that ultimately failed so he had to kill the King's army with the red sea. Its just littered with stories like this.

And when in the bible it states that he will destroy them you suddenly say its not that "he" will its just the natural consequences?

 

[Thief]

digression.....

Did I miss it?
was there a definitive cause for God's favored angel to rebel?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

digression.....
Did I miss it?
was there a definitive cause for God's favored angel to rebel?

All angels were favored by God. As far as Satan ( Ezekiel 28 vs 13-17 ) he allowed his position to become so important to the point that Satan wanted humans to worship him instead of God - James 1vs 13-15 - each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I see you still don't get how you're giving god a free pass to murder children or pretty much anyone at this point. So many different times in the bible he has killed people, lots of people, to further goals that often had little to do with what he had planned. He was pissed that the world became sinful even though it was part of his plan to have humans fall, so he destroyed them all with a giant flood. (doubtful it ever happened but for the sake of argument let's say this is legitimate). Then he murder's all of the first born in Egypt to prove a point? A point that ultimately failed so he had to kill the King's army with the red sea. Its just littered with stories like this.
And when in the bible it states that he will destroy them you suddenly say its not that "he" will its just the natural consequences?

There is a difference between killing, murder and an execution for the sake of justice.
Nowhere does the Bible teach it was God's purpose for man to fall or fail.
God granted all in heaven and on earth the gift of free will.
We are all created as free-moral agents with the ability to choose. - Deut. 30:19
Joshua chose of his own free will to obey God - Joshua 24:15
Noah was Not just an Ark builder but a preacher - 2nd Peter 2:5 - warning people in advance to repent.
The ten plagues were a warning too.
Today, the international spreading about the good news of God's kingdom government coming is also a warning - 2nd Peter 3:9
Parents are responsible for minor children - 1st Cor. 7:14 - because God can read hearts then He knows the point when those minors will grow up to be like the unrepentant warned-in-advance parents.
The words from Jesus' mouth - Isaiah 11 vs 3,4 - will be as sharp as an executioner's sword to rid the earth of the wicked.
In other words, those who would bring ruin to earth ( Literal or moral ) will be brought to ruin - Rev. 11 v 18 B; Psalm 92:7

 

[Monk Of Reason]

There is a difference between killing, murder and an execution for the sake of justice.

and the killing of first born children for the sake of the father's sins in Ancient Egypt is murder not justice.

Nowhere does the Bible teach it was God's purpose for man to fall or fail.

All things are his will are they not?

God granted all in heaven and on earth the gift of free will.

According to scripture we stole free will by eating the fruit of knowledge. Prior to that we didn't have an awoken consciousness of good and evil to make decisions.

We are all created as free-moral agents with the ability to choose. - Deut. 30:19
Joshua chose of his own free will to obey God - Joshua 24:15
Noah was Not just an Ark builder but a preacher - 2nd Peter 2:5 - warning people in advance to repent.
The ten plagues were a warning too.

Deadly warning shots are still murder. If cop comes to your house and then tells you to come out with your hands up but then immediately shots your dog just to show you he's serious....

Today, the international spreading about the good news of God's kingdom government coming is also a warning - 2nd Peter 3:9

Neat.

Parents are responsible for minor children - 1st Cor. 7:14 - because God can read hearts then He knows the point when those minors will grow up to be like the unrepentant warned-in-advance parents.

Bull****.

The words from Jesus' mouth - Isaiah 11 vs 3,4 - will be as sharp as an executioner's sword to rid the earth of the wicked.
In other words, those who would bring ruin to earth ( Literal or moral ) will be brought to ruin - Rev. 11 v 18 B; Psalm 92:7

So you admit is is god's plan that the majority of mankind will fail and be struck down during the end of days? Or is this not part of his plan?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.....Then he murder's all of the first born in Egypt to prove a point? A point that ultimately failed so he had to kill the King's army with the red sea.

Those ten plagues humiliated those Egyptian gods:

1] Nile into blood humiliated Hapi the Nile god.
2] Frogs were sacred to the goddess Heqt
3] The magic-practicing priest were defeated by the gnats humiliating the god Thoth
4] gadflies only invaded the Egyptian homes.
5] The next humiliated the cow-goddess Hathor, Apis and the sky goddess Nut.
6] Boils disgraced the healing gods such as Thoth, Isis, and Ptah
7] Hailstorm put to shame Reshpu who was the god in control of natural elements.
8] The locusts shamed the harvest god Min
9] Darkness humiliated the sun gods Ra and Horus
10] Death of the firstborn humiliated Pharaoh himself because Pharaoh was styled as a god being the son of god Ra or Amon-Ra
So, the death of their first born to them meant the death of their god. Their false gods could Not save their firstborn.
Unlike in the movie, both, the King (Pharaoh ) along with his army, drowned in the Red Sea.
- Exodus 15:1; 15:21; Jeremiah 46:25

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Those ten plagues humiliated those Egyptian gods:

1] Nile into blood humiliated Hapi the Nile god.
2] Frogs were sacred to the goddess Heqt
3] The magic-practicing priest were defeated by the gnats humiliating the god Thoth
4] gadflies only invaded the Egyptian homes.
5] The next humiliated the cow-goddess Hathor, Apis and the sky goddess Nut.
6] Boils disgraced the healing gods such as Thoth, Isis, and Ptah
7] Hailstorm put to shame Reshpu who was the god in control of natural elements.
8] The locusts shamed the harvest god Min
9] Darkness humiliated the sun gods Ra and Horus
10] Death of the firstborn humiliated Pharaoh himself because Pharaoh was styled as a god being the son of god Ra or Amon-Ra
So, the death of their first born to them meant the death of their god. Their false gods could Not save their firstborn.
Unlike in the movie, both, the King (Pharaoh ) along with his army, drowned in the Red Sea.
- Exodus 15:1; 15:21; Jeremiah 46:25

Even worse. You realize you are trying to convince me this god is a good god right? Someone who is just? Fair? All loving? Something to that effective nonsense?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and the killing of first born children for the sake of the father's sins in Ancient Egypt is murder not justice.
All things are his will are they not?
According to scripture we stole free will by eating the fruit of knowledge. Prior to that we didn't have an awoken consciousness of good and evil to make decisions.
Deadly warning shots are still murder. If cop comes to your house and then tells you to come out with your hands up but then immediately shots your dog just to show you he's serious....
So you admit is is god's plan that the majority of mankind will fail and be struck down during the end of days? Or is this not part of his plan?

Yes, Adam was told in advance that choosing to eat the forbidden fruit meant death.
There was No prohibition on the tree of life.
Didn't Adam steal from God's one-and-only don't-touch tree ?
How many trees are on earth ?_______
Out of all the trees on earth only one don't-touch tree belonged to God.
By saying don't touch, don't eat, God was in effect putting up a No trespassing sign on His tree.
By Adam taking from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, then Adam was now choosing for himself what was right and wrong.
Adam was ignoring what God said was good and bad, right or wrong. Adam chose to set up People Rule as superior to God Rule.
God did Not interfere with Adam's choices. Mankind's history has shown what man-rule or people-rule has brought to earth.
Mankind has proven beyond doubt that man independent from God can Not establish Peace on Earth.

What does 2nd Peter 3:9 say about God's purpose but that ' ALL ' should repent rather than perish [ be destroyed ]
So, God's purpose is that ' everyone ' Not perish [ be destroyed ]
As the people were violent in Noah's Day - Genesis 6:11 - that day of judgment was to clear things up to make things better.
The words from Jesus' mouth will clear the way to make things better for a new world of righteousness.
People choose by their own choice whether they want to be a humble sheep or be a haughty goat - Matthew 25 vs 31,32

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Yes, Adam was told in advance that choosing to eat the forbidden fruit meant death.
There was No prohibition on the tree of life.
Didn't Adam steal from God's one-and-only don't-touch tree ?
How many trees are on earth ?_______
Out of all the trees on earth only one don't-touch tree belonged to God.
By saying don't touch, don't eat, God was in effect putting up a No trespassing sign on His tree.
By Adam taking from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, then Adam was now choosing for himself what was right and wrong.
Adam was ignoring what God said was good and bad, right or wrong. Adam chose to set up People Rule as superior to God Rule.
God did Not interfere with Adam's choices. Mankind's history has shown what man-rule or people-rule has brought to earth.
Mankind has proven beyond doubt that man independent from God can Not establish Peace on Earth.

To be fair it was his lady friend who changed his mind. We all know when the wife isn't happy no one is happy. And the wife was tempted by the snake *wink*. And who made the snake with a deceptive nature? And was god's plan to have them live for eternity in eden? Was the rest of it god making it up as he went along? You're saying some very contradictory stuff here.

What does 2nd Peter 3:9 say about God's purpose but that ' ALL ' should repent rather than perish [ be destroyed ]
So, God's purpose is that ' everyone ' Not perish [ be destroyed ]
As the people were violent in Noah's Day - Genesis 6:11 - that day of judgment was to clear things up to make things better.
The words from Jesus' mouth will clear the way to make things better for a new world of righteousness.
People choose by their own choice whether they want to be a humble sheep or be a haughty goat - Matthew 25 vs 31,32

See if everything goes according to god's will then it happened exactly according to god's will. So you need to either admit that there isn't a plan and that the crap that happens just happens and god had no role in it OR god has to accept some responsibility for what happens. Its as simple as that. If god says everything happens according to his will and he knew that people would screw up merely saying "oh well I hope everyone makes it" while knowing full well they won't...that isn't kindness or fairness.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

To be fair it was his lady friend who changed his mind. We all know when the wife isn't happy no one is happy. And the wife was tempted by the snake *wink*. And who made the snake with a deceptive nature? And was god's plan to have them live for eternity in eden? Was the rest of it god making it up as he went along? You're saying some very contradictory stuff here.
See if everything goes according to god's will then it happened exactly according to god's will. So you need to either admit that there isn't a plan and that the crap that happens just happens and god had no role in it OR god has to accept some responsibility for what happens. Its as simple as that. If god says everything happens according to his will and he knew that people would screw up merely saying "oh well I hope everyone makes it" while knowing full well they won't...that isn't kindness or fairness.

Who made the serpent (Satan) with the deceptive nature was Satan himself - James 1 vs 13-15 - each one is drawn out by his own desire. Satan's desire was that he wanted the worship that belongs to God. Thus, Satan turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.

Adam and Eve (Romeo and Juliet ) remember Eve was deceived - 1st Timothy 2:14 - Adam was Not deceived.So, in effect then Adam committed suicide. Eve blamed the serpent - Genesis 3:13 - Adam blamed God - Genesis 3:12.

Eden was a sample garden. Adam and Eve along with descendants were to expand or enlarge that small paradisaic Garden of Eden until the whole earth looked liked that beautiful blooming edenic garden. So, physical creation (us) is designed to live forever on earth.
If you were out working in your garden and someone interrupted you, would you then say that you were never going to go back to your garden ?______ Most likely after the interruption was over you would return to your garden.
Satan threw a monkey wrench into God's garden purpose and Jesus will take care of that interruption or monkey wrench so that we - the majority of mankind - can go back to the garden and live on a beautiful paradisaic earth forever and ever.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Who made the serpent (Satan) with the deceptive nature was Satan himself - James 1 vs 13-15 - each one is drawn out by his own desire. Satan's desire was that he wanted the worship that belongs to God. Thus, Satan turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.

This gets back into some other things but let met ask two questions.
1) Is everything created?
2) Is god the original creator of everything created?

Adam and Eve (Romeo and Juliet ) remember Eve was deceived - 1st Timothy 2:14 - Adam was Not deceived.So, in effect then Adam committed suicide. Eve blamed the serpent - Genesis 3:13 - Adam blamed God - Genesis 3:12.

This takes some reaching when reading the story.

Eden was a sample garden. Adam and Eve along with descendants were to expand or enlarge that small paradisaic Garden of Eden until the whole earth looked liked that beautiful blooming edenic garden. So, physical creation (us) is designed to live forever on earth.

Really doubtful.

If you were out working in your garden and someone interrupted you, would you then say that you were never going to go back to your garden ?______ Most likely after the interruption was over you would return to your garden.
Satan threw a monkey wrench into God's garden purpose and Jesus will take care of that interruption or monkey wrench so that we - the majority of mankind - can go back to the garden and live on a beautiful paradisaic earth forever and ever.

I kept thinking you were trying to say parasitic.
also it is worth noting that Adam and Even didn't leave of their own free will. God cast them out cuz he got all pissy they gained knowledge.

 

[Thief]

All angels were favored by God. As far as Satan ( Ezekiel 28 vs 13-17 ) he allowed his position to become so important to the point that Satan wanted humans to worship him instead of God - James 1vs 13-15 - each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.

The story I got.....

God made Man a little less than the angels.....Psalms...

I then heard somewhere....
God said to the angels....'Go after Man, for he is less than you and see that he not stub his toe nor dash his head.'

One third of heaven (led by God's favorite) said ...'nay'.

That Man is less, he should be made to serve us!

There is nothing wrong with that logic.
shall I continue?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The story I got.....
God made Man a little less than the angels.....Psalms...
I then heard somewhere....
God said to the angels....'Go after Man, for he is less than you and see that he not stub his toe nor dash his head.'
One third of heaven (led by God's favorite) said ...'nay'.
That Man is less, he should be made to serve us!
There is nothing wrong with that logic.
shall I continue?

Please notice the three heavens mentioned at 2nd Peter 3 vs 5,7,13

The first heaven mentioned is the heavens of OLD or the heavens of Noah's day
The second heaven is the heavens of NOW or the heavens since Noah's day to our day.
The third heavens is the NEW heavens which will be under Jesus' 1000-year governmental rule over earth.
That NEW righteous heavens means only righteous will dwell on that righteous new earth.

Gone will be the ' third of heaven ' or the ' third of the stars' of heaven or Rev. 13 vs 3,4
Those ' third of the stars ' symbolically stand for or represent the fallen angels who followed Satan as their king or ruler.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This gets back into some other things but let met ask two questions.
1) Is everything created?
2) Is god the original creator of everything created?
This takes some reaching when reading the story.
Really doubtful.
I kept thinking you were trying to say parasitic.
also it is worth noting that Adam and Even didn't leave of their own free will. God cast them out cuz he got all pissy they gained knowledge.

What knowledge did they gain? They were told you eat you die. They ate they died.
Did their human knowledge make life better for them and us ?
Adam took the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and put the Law into his own hands thus setting up People Rule as Superior to God Rule. How has humans ruling with human knowledge brought about Peace On Earth, etc. ?
Pick up the morning news and read about the bad news of men's kingdoms or governments.
Pick up the Bible and read about the good news of God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus - Rev.22:2

According to Scripture God is Not created but is the Creator. - Psalm 90:2; Rev. 4:11
Since only God was before the beginning, then He is creator of everything.
God's first creation was the pre-human heavenly Jesus as the beginning of the creation by God - Rev. 1:5; 3:14
That makes Jesus the other part of the ' us ' of Genesis 1:26
All other creation by God comes through Jesus. - Colossians 1 vs 15,16
Meaning Jesus was God's only direct creation.

Paradise of course is Not parasitic but paradisaic. The Paradisaic Garden of Eden. Genesis 1:28 replenish and subdue the ' earth '......

 

[Thief]

Please notice the three heavens mentioned at 2nd Peter 3 vs 5,7,13

The first heaven mentioned is the heavens of OLD or the heavens of Noah's day
The second heaven is the heavens of NOW or the heavens since Noah's day to our day.
The third heavens is the NEW heavens which will be under Jesus' 1000-year governmental rule over earth.
That NEW righteous heavens means only righteous will dwell on that righteous new earth.

Gone will be the ' third of heaven ' or the ' third of the stars' of heaven or Rev. 13 vs 3,4
Those ' third of the stars ' symbolically stand for or represent the fallen angels who followed Satan as their king or ruler.

and the heaven that is within you ......not important?

and you did not actually address my previous post.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

What knowledge did they gain? They were told you eat you die. They ate they died.
Did their human knowledge make life better for them and us ?
Adam took the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and put the Law into his own hands thus setting up People Rule as Superior to God Rule. How has humans ruling with human knowledge brought about Peace On Earth, etc. ?
Pick up the morning news and read about the bad news of men's kingdoms or governments.
Pick up the Bible and read about the good news of God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus - Rev.22:2

According to Scripture God is Not created but is the Creator. - Psalm 90:2; Rev. 4:11
Since only God was before the beginning, then He is creator of everything.
God's first creation was the pre-human heavenly Jesus as the beginning of the creation by God - Rev. 1:5; 3:14
That makes Jesus the other part of the ' us ' of Genesis 1:26
All other creation by God comes through Jesus. - Colossians 1 vs 15,16
Meaning Jesus was God's only direct creation.

Paradise of course is Not parasitic but paradisaic. The Paradisaic Garden of Eden. Genesis 1:28 replenish and subdue the ' earth '......

And god was powerless to stop man from taking this leap?

They gained knolwedge of good and evil. It says so right in the bible.

 

[Thief]

And god was powerless to stop man from taking this leap?

They gained knolwedge of good and evil. It says so right in the bible.

and I believe that action was essential.

How do you know with certainty the 'Man and Woman' have freewill?
If they obey every spoken word at face value and never fault......how is that freewill?

So you give them a choice.
Learn and die.
Obey and live as is.

Obey and live...is not actually an option.
I don't believe Man, as created on Day Six was immortal.

I believe Adam is a chosen son of God. (see new testament)

An alteration was dealt unto Adam.
His body and spirit was manipulated.
He was given his twin sister for a bride.
Eve is a clone....not born of woman....no navel.

The experiment needed to play out to be sure....
Man must be that creature curious....even in the face of pending death.

We ARE that creature.