If there was no 'mosaic' law, and please note the word mosaic is clearly indicating from Moses, what do,you make the ten commandments? And also, Christ does not fulfill any of the Jewish criteria for the messiah. Since we know this to be true, how can you deny that fact?
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Who caused Satan or the devil rebel
- Thread starter upperroom
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I see you do know or acknowledge what the ancient people of the Bible stated as to what they believed.
' Many ' that would include denominations come ' in Jesus' name ' but prove false according to Matthew chapter 7.
They often prove false because of teaching church traditions or customs outside of Scripture as being Scripture.
The real truth - religious truth - of religion would be ' according to Jesus ' - John 17:17 - the Scriptures.
Jesus believed in religious truth, or what the Bible really teaches, would be found in the Scriptures.
The 66 books of Bible canon are in harmony with each other.
The apocryphal books exclude themselves because of being out of harmony with the 66.
The ancient manuscripts are what support the 66 books of Bible canon or the collection of 66 Bible books.
As to whether one agrees or disagrees with the 66 does Not take away from what the Bible really teaches.
In God's eyes, according to the Bible, responsibility to Not practice fornication is required.
Monk Of Reason
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Even without going into all of the contradictions and tone shifts as well as attitude changes that god has undergone throughout those 66 books, I will simply state that I disagree that the bible is in any kind of harmony. Secondly, how do you know your scripture is the correct scripture? How do you know that it hasn't been corrupted long long ago?
Yes, starting from the time of Moses comes the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law covenant or contract for ancient Israel.
As I know of No criteria Jesus did Not fulfill, please list some of the criteria for Messiah that Jesus did Not fulfill ?
I make of the ten commandments or laws as being the first ten commandments out of the 600+ Mosaic Laws.
In other words, out of 600+ commandments, the ' ten commandments ' where the beginning or first ten out of the 600+.
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What Bible standard or principle has changed over thousands of years ?
Man's self-help books keep being updated or revised, yet the Bible's timeless principles remain the same.
Jesus Nor his followers would be willing to die if there wasn't the harmony within the Scriptures.
Attitude changes were due to changing circumstances.
Was it God who changed or was it the people of Nineveh who changed after Jonah preached to them?______
According to the book of Jonah it was the people of Nineveh who repented and changed.
According to Isaiah 11:4 B It would be for striking the wicked to death with the breath of his lips .
All the wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalm 92:7.
All who would bring ruin to earth will be ruined - Revelation 11:18 B
Monk Of Reason
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The need of sacrifices for sin. The view of women and their place in the church. Views on authority of the church. Ect.
I will respectfully disagree and state that the bible's timeless principles remain outdated.
Jesus nor his followers ever even knew of the bible or scripture. The cannon was made some three hundred years after the man he was based off of died. The vast majority of what we know of Christianity developed out of Paul's writings and the four authors of the gospels who were more than likely not first person eye witnesses.
You may believe what you will.
The Mosaic Law sacrifices showed that No one could remain sinless, thus the need for Messiah to come.
The counsel given three times for the Corinthian congregation for those women to keep silent was for the same reason at 1st Cor. 14:40 that all things should take place decently and by arrangement. Not meaning never to speak, but there was a time to be silent.
Men were given the position to take the lead. If a woman did Not understand something, she was Not to disrupt the congregation meeting, but first she would go to her husband, then if it was still unresolved, then they would go to the spiritually older men in the congregation.
The Hebrew Scriptures are and were very much older than the Christian Scriptures.
By age 12 - Luke 2 vs 42 - 47 - Jesus already was educated in those old existing Hebrew Scriptures.
By Jesus saying ' God Word is truth ' - John 17:17 - Jesus meant the the words already recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus even quoted or referred to those old Scriptures when rebuking Satan at Luke chapter 4. See verses 4,8,10,12; Deut 6:16
Starting from the time of Moses to Christ the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was in existence.
Jesus often prefaced his statement with the words, " it is written " meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
- Matthew 4:4,7,0; 11:10; 21:13; 26:32; Mark 9:13; 14:27; Luke 24:46; John 6: 45; 8:17
The Bible is full of corresponding cross-reference verses and passages between the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures.
Bible canon was completed by gospel writer John at the end of the first century.
Constantine set up Christendom - false Christianity - in the 3rd century.
It is more like one gospel according to four writers:
The gospel according to Matthew
The gospel according to Mark
The gospel according to Luke
The gospel according to John
What I meant by forever timeless principles for example is what is recorded at:
Matthew 7:12 - the Golden Rule
Be mild, kind, compassionate - Colossians 3:12
Conquer evil with good - Matthew 5:44; Romans 12:21
Love neighbor - Matthew 22:39
Honor or respect others - Romans 12:10
Pursue peace - Mark 9:50; Romans 12:18; 14:19
Be forgiving - Matthew 6:12
Be loyal- Proverbs 5 vs 15-20
Be honest - Micah 6:11
Be truthful - Amos 5:15; Zech. 8:16; Ephesians 4:25
Be a good worker - Proverbs 22:29; Colossians 3:23
There are several, several of which he alleged does fulfill.
1. He must be jewish
2. He must, through his biological father, come from the line of king David and king Solomon.
3. He must rebuild the temple,of Jerusalem.
4. He must, through his biological father, be a member of the tribe of Judah,
5. He must remove all the Jews from exile and return them to Israel.
6. He will rule at a time of world peace.
And so on. Since he does not complete this list, he is not the messiah of the OT or more accurately, the Tanakh.
Thank you for your reply. It would be helpful if it the Bible passages were mentioned.
Since Jesus had Jewish parents, then Jesus would be Jewish and living as he did under the Mosaic Law.
Matthew 1:2 does list Jesus as son of David. Solomon is listed in verse 6.
See also Luke 3:31 son of Nathan which was also the son of David.
Matthew traces Jesus lineage through Jesus' Paternal line.
Since Joseph was Jesus' foster father, then through adoption Joseph gave Jesus the ' legal right ' to David's throne.
Luke chapter 3 traces Jesus' lineage through Mary his Maternal line. Thus Mary gives Jesus the ' biological right ' to David's throne.
Matthew 24 starts with Jesus talking about the temple being destroyed - that happened later in the year 70 by the Roman armies.
That was the last days for that former Jewish system of things.
Since Pentecost it is now ' Jerusalem above ' according to Galatians 4:26. Now heavenly Jerusalem as the seat of government.
Also, since Pentecost it is the ' spiritual ' Israel of God - Galatians 6:16 - a holy or spiritual nation - 1st Peter 2:9,5 - a spiritual house of worship. The former temple, or house of worship, was abandoned by God according to Matthew 23:38
Yes, according to 1st Thess. 5:2,3 Jesus will rule at a time of world peace. The 1000-year reign of Christ over earth will be peaceful. First however, there will be the ' final signal', so to speak, when the powers or rulers on earth will first be saying ' Peace and Safety ' or ' Peace and Security ' as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 which happens before Jesus, as King of God's kingdom government, ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
And yet, Jesus was the son of Mary, and not from the line of David as he came from Mary, which negates the paternal line as noted. In the Jewish POV, this about Mary does not work. I am merely stating what I have learned in my studies, which have been extensive in this regard. And also, Jesus did NOT rebluid the temple, nor did he rule during a time of peace. You are free to believe he will at some future date but the rules, per Judiac law, was that he would have ruled then under a term of peace which we know he did not. Nor did he remove all the Jewish tribes from exile and return them to Israel. ALL of the critera must be met to make this correct and clearly, he did not meet those criteria.
Monk Of Reason
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Indeed that is the story. Though Jews currently disagree and I haven't seen a good argument yet why sacrifice was needed in the first place
Paul has in some cases praised women and condemn them for speaking in the church. Though even if he had only stated the above that in and of itself is a "moral" that I do not abide by or see as moral.
There is a mass of scripture from Hebrew sources. They themselves did not make a cannon of it until after Jesus's time. There was no single book that he could have referenced and many of the Hebrew scriptures that he would have learned about have been since thrown out.
What is the evidence you have that the Author (who is unknown) of John created a cannon?
Have you ever read any analysis of the four books and the change in tone they have and even some minor contradictions?
Homosexuals are abominations
Women should know their place
Love no other god before me
Don't have sex before marriage
ect. There are some good moral stories in the bible. I just don't think that its unanimously true of the bible as a whole.
Any who practice fornication, homosexual or not, is considered as deliberately sinning.
Men should know their place - see Ephesians 5:25 - because husbands are to love your wives as Christ loved the congregation and gave himself for it. In other words, husbands should love their wives to the point of begin willing to die for them.
Ephesians 5:28 also says men are to love their wives as their own bodies...... verse 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it.... verse 33 love wife as he loves himself.
Just a ship has only one captain, the final say or decision was assigned by God to the man.
Men should take into consideration what the wife says before deciding.
Remember when God told Abraham he should listen to his wife Sarah ? ______- Genesis 17:16; 21:12
Since the God of the Bible, as Jesus taught is the True God, then yes we would have No false gods before Him.
Jews today disagree with a lot. One Jew told me he was Not looking for Messiah to come.
Who threw out Hebrew Scriptures, Not God but men.
Yes, the Bible did Not make up the 66 collection of books until about 70 years after Jesus.
According to Scripture John was Not the unknown writer. No one around the 1st century wrote otherwise.
Gospel writer John was the last to write. Revelation written around 96, and his gospel and 3 letters around 98.
Thus Bible canon was completed by the end of the first century.
What change in tone, and is it contradictions or viewpoint ?
Minor mistakes that crept into copies does Not mean the Bible as a whole is wrong.
The Bible's theme is the same from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation.
Through God's kingdom government the promised ' seed ' of Genesis 3:15 would bring an end to Satan - Rev. 12 vs 9,12
No one else, just Jesus as Messiah will soon usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Monk Of Reason
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And I simply do not agree with this assessment.
Yet women have to have their voices heard through their husbands. Why would god, knowing full well that men and women are of equal intelligence, make it so women do not have an active voice but a passive one?
What of places that do not know of him? What of others gods that have an equal amount of evidence? For example why am I to believe the Christian account rather than the Islamic one?
I believe to be Jewish is to disagree.
Who wrote the bible? Not god but men. It runs both ways.
Possibly not even that or possibly more. The Hebrew collection of works were scattered at best and aside from the Torah it was slightly up in the air. The rest of the Tanakh wasn't fully developed and many books were removed.
What portion of the scripture gives accurate dates of when the scripture was written? Because as it stands the historical evidence points to later. Also again, no. There was no Christian Cannon at the end of the first century. I will need to see evidence that it was compiled prior to the end of the 2nd century.
The change in tone of what god's nature is would be the most glaring. At times he is a vengeful jealous god (both of which are sins by his own account) who allows his wrath to consume all that defy him. Then at other times he is an all loving and compassionate god. At some times he has commanded the Jews to murder in his name even women and children. Others he has told that we are to love the sinners like our brothers and sisters. Jesus was a huge change in tone. His message was by and large vastly different than the message found in the old testament. The concept of "grace" was introduced. The concept of loving your enemies was introduced. There was a change in how god was to be questioned (if at all depending on your interpretation).
I think I have already listed some specific contradictions in the bible earlier in this thread. Or perhaps it was a different one.
But one of my favorite is about the sins of the father. Does the child inherit them or do they not? This is fairly significant and there are contradicting verses on the subject. If you care for it I can look up the scripture if you are not familiar with it already.
Since rather busy right now, for now I'll make mention about the sins of the father.
What are your thoughts about:
Ezekiel 18:20 B
and 2nd Chronicles 25:4 B
and Deuteronomy 24:16
I am Not sure what verses you have in mind about a child inheriting the sins of the father.
Father Adam was created sinless. Meaning Adam could only sin on purpose, deliberately, willfully, premeditated.
Because we are all born ' after ' father Adam sinned we inherited his then acquired imperfection meaning we all lean / toward sin.
Unlike Adam, we can sin by mistake, by accident, unintentionally.
No matter how hard we try we can Not avoid what the Bible calls sin or sinning.
So, we do Not inherit father Adam's sins, we die because of our own sins.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we cannot stop sinning we die.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can do that for us.
According to Scripture, Jesus can and will resurrect people.- Revelation 1:18
Why do good, or as Romans 12:17 mentions to return evil for evil to No one..... verse 20 if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty give him something to drink; (why) for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head. Verse 21 Do Not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good. - Compare with Proverbs 25 vs 21,22
We do Not literally heap fiery coals on another's head, but meaning to soften the person and melt his hardness.
In other words we are to be ' both ' -> Human Kind.
The reason for doing good to ' all ' is that according to 2nd Peter 3:9 God desires ' all ' to attain to repentance.
In other words, God wants everyone to repent so as to be classed as being one of the humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31,32
We are nearing that soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth.
Those who would bring ruin to earth - literally or morally - will be brought to ruin - Revelation 11:18 B
We are being forewarned so that we can be forearmed, so to speak, in that we could repent rather than perish ( be destroyed ).
Theist1961
New Member
The devil doesn't exist.
Demons don't exist.
Angels don't exist.
The world is efficient enough at trying our souls and God doesn't need help.
Demons don't exist.
Angels don't exist.
The world is efficient enough at trying our souls and God doesn't need help.
Monk Of Reason
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Deut. 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Mmm .. many concepts appear to be contradictory ..
Take complex numbers, for example .. does the root of -1 exist?
We certainly have a responsibility to our children .. if the parents are careless, they might well follow in their footsteps..
..however, anybody who repents to Almighty God with sincerity will be forgiven..