Who does not believe in freedom of choice in religion?

[Jimmy]

Assume what, that a frivolous post might demand an equal response?

Could you rephrase the question Alex?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Could you rephrase the question Alex?

No one of that name here. Sorry.

 

[Secret Chief]

I can inform you, that if Islam necessitates that apostates be killed, I have no problem with that

How ironic that you started this thread.

 

[eik]

Christians keep talking about my "heathen" lifestyle. Yet there is nothing in my lifestyle that I could not do if I were a Christian. While some individual Christians measure up, Christianity itself does not rise to my minimum moral standards.

Why should anyone credit your vain claims? You've already tried to confine me to a denomination of one, by way of trying to undermine me and seeking to pretend that Christianity confines all to denominations: consistent with purile heathenism but not with the Christian religion. So you've been proved economical with the truth just in that.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Why should anyone credit your vain claims? You've already tried to confine me to a denomination of one, by way of trying to undermine me and seeking to pretend that Christianity confines all to denominations: consistent with purile heathenism but not with the Christian religion. So you've been proved economical with the truth just in that.

Can us heathens add your 'purile' slander to our list (of such - asinine was the last I accepted)? Except actually it's spelt puerile.

 

[Valjean]

I believe whatever Islam teaches, however, I don't understand well what Islam teaches regarding your question.

I already gave a simple answer; I don't know. You might be OK making careless assertions, but I take the topic seriously. Anyway, since you're just brushing up your ego with this, I can inform you, that if Islam necessitates that apostates be killed, I have no problem with that, so don't worry — if I knew that to be a fact, I would inform you about that.

Just following orders?

So your level of moral development is nil? You don't know right from wrong, don't have personal moral values or make your own moral choices? You just just accept what you're told, and submit?

 

[Piculet]

Just following orders?

So your level of moral development is nil? You don't know right from wrong, don't have personal moral values or make your own moral choices? You just just accept what you're told?

You are beginning to understand the meaning of faith. I believe God will teach me right from wrong when I follow His orders. It is simple and easy. For nearly all my life's complicated problems and questions, I can find an answer to from Islam. If I ask a non-believing person, they would not be able to help in such a way. In fact, I have asked for advice from those who do not follow Islam. I am still awed how futile their attempts to recognize right from wrong are, how useless they advice is (though sincere), and how fragile my plans would be if I relied on mere guesses and individual experience like them.

 

[Secret Chief]

Can us heathens add your 'purile' slander to our list (of such - asinine was the last I accepted)? Except actually it's spelt puerile.

I thought you made a good asininist.

 

[Secret Chief]

You are beginning to understand the meaning of faith. I believe God will teach me right from wrong when I follow His orders. It is simple and easy. For nearly all my life's complicated problems and questions, I can find an answer to from Islam. If I ask a non-believing person, they would not be able to help in such a way. In fact, I have asked for advice from those who do not follow Islam. I am still awed how futile their attempts to recognize right from wrong are, how useless they advice is (though sincere), and how fragile my plans would be if I relied on mere guesses and individual experience like them.

I hope it is simple and easy for gay Muslims. You probably think it is.

 

[Piculet]

I hope it is simple and easy for gay Muslims. You probably think it is.

Yes, it is. It is perfectly clear that they should not act on their deviant desires.

It does not mean that it is easy not to do so. Just as it is easy for a Muslim in the west to know which jobs are not permissable for them, it is by no means always easy to find a good job that is permissable.

 

[Polymath257]

You are beginning to understand the meaning of faith. I believe God will teach me right from wrong when I follow His orders. It is simple and easy. For nearly all my life's complicated problems and questions, I can find an answer to from Islam. If I ask a non-believing person, they would not be able to help in such a way. In fact, I have asked for advice from those who do not follow Islam. I am still awed how futile their attempts to recognize right from wrong are, how useless they advice is (though sincere), and how fragile my plans would be if I relied on mere guesses and individual experience like them.

If a faith dictates that an apostate should be killed, then that faith is evil.

This is the BIG moral problem with faith: when your faith becomes more important than actual lives, it automatically becomes evil and destructive.

It seems to me that your faith has blinded you to evil.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I thought you made a good asininist.

I've decided on both - being just slightly different enough.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You are beginning to understand the meaning of faith. I believe God will teach me right from wrong when I follow His orders. It is simple and easy. For nearly all my life's complicated problems and questions, I can find an answer to from Islam. If I ask a non-believing person, they would not be able to help in such a way. In fact, I have asked for advice from those who do not follow Islam. I am still awed how futile their attempts to recognize right from wrong are, how useless they advice is (though sincere), and how fragile my plans would be if I relied on mere guesses and individual experience like them.

But religions have had how long to perfect the message? At least those without religious beliefs are free - given that we all are not free from our human nature - but otherwise we can use our reasoning, empathy, intuition, etc., to inform our behaviour, whilst if one obeys the diktats of any particular religion then one is essentially a slave to such. Your views on apostasy reflect upon what religions can do - in distorting the basic freedoms that we should all enjoy, but which seemingly some just cannot tolerate.

 

[Valjean]

This Fatawa describes how an Egyptian man turned apostate and the subsequent punishment prescribed for him by the Al-Azhr Fatawa council. The following translation is a rough guide: In the Name of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful. Al-Azhr Council of Fatawa. This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed Darwish and brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German nationality. A man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband would join the Christian faith and doctrine. 1) What is the Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments prescribed for this act? 2) Are his children considered Muslim or Christian? The Answer: All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and salutations on the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed, his family and all of his companions. Thereafter: This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah. As far as his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must be killed and Allah knows best. Seal of Al-Azhr Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr. Abdullah al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد‎) 23rd September 1978

I find this more than a little scary.
You would be fine with such a pronouncement if that is what Islam necessitates?
This is the point, in my mind, where religion becomes evil.

Some interesting implications here.

"In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent the Most Merciful?" Seriously? This ruling is neither beneficent nor merciful. It seems to me that almost every individual on this forum would be more merciful than this ruling portrays Allah and His agents to be.

What about Al-Barqara 256? "There is no compulsion in religion..." This ruling would seem to contradict the Quran.

From this and many other easily Googled judgements, I get the impression that some Muslims don't consider Islam to be a religion in the sense commonly understood in the West. It's treated more like a nationality, with an imposed membership, expectation of loyal patriotism, and compulsive authority.

In the West religion's usually treated more as a set of beliefs than a tribal affiliation. A religion here can no longer compel behavior; you can't be drafted by the Presbyterians, for example.[/QUOTE]

 

[Daemon Sophic]

You are beginning to understand the meaning of faith. I believe God will teach me right from wrong when I follow His orders. It is simple and easy. For nearly all my life's complicated problems and questions, I can find an answer to from Islam. If I ask a non-believing person, they would not be able to help in such a way. In fact, I have asked for advice from those who do not follow Islam. I am still awed how futile their attempts to recognize right from wrong are, how useless they advice is (though sincere), and how fragile my plans would be if I relied on mere guesses and individual experience like them.

then you must consider the question; “What is Islam?”.

You had stated that if God were to say X, Y, or Z you would follow it. Great.
But Islam is not God. Islam is a religion. It is simply words and ideas written out by humans. Mere fallible humans. And that’s just the Quran. It gets muddier when we introduce the words and teachings of modern Imams. These men are biased by current affairs and politics. You know that they are not above weakness.
If they are the speakers for “Islam” then you have to take their words with a grain of salt.
That grain of salt in all of us is our own personal morals.
Your statements above indicate that you lack personal morals. That you are an unthinking and uncaring robot, simply carrying out the will of “Islam”. So? What are you defining as “Islam”?

If you believe that Allah is talking to you directly, then that is an entirely other thread for discussion at another time.

 

[Piculet]

It seems to me that your faith has blinded you to evil.

Sounds to me like you have made your definition of evil and think the world should abide by it. Isn't that conceited?

 

[eik]

Can us heathens add your 'purile' slander ....

When you've proved its slander. I note you're very keen criticize others for having no evidence, but you are not exactly forthcoming with it.

 

[Valjean]

You are beginning to understand the meaning of faith. I believe God will teach me right from wrong when I follow His orders. It is simple and easy. For nearly all my life's complicated problems and questions, I can find an answer to from Islam. If I ask a non-believing person, they would not be able to help in such a way. In fact, I have asked for advice from those who do not follow Islam. I am still awed how futile their attempts to recognize right from wrong are, how useless they advice is (though sincere), and how fragile my plans would be if I relied on mere guesses and individual experience like them.

So, to you, 'faith' is allegiance, not a set of beliefs or moral code; and apostacy a form of treason. Religion is obedience; "following orders," not a set of beliefs. It's goal is not to effect justice, fairness or compassion, but submission.

This is totalitarian nationalism, not religion as we understand it in the West. Its "theology" is a deontological list of divine commands. Consequences are a secondary consideration.

 

[Valjean]

Sounds to me like you have made your definition of evil and think the world should abide by it. Isn't that conceited?

To me, evil is sowing unkindness or unfairness; it's lack of moral consideration. To you it appears to be non-submission, ie: not following orders.

 

[Mock Turtle]

When you've proved its slander. I note you're very keen criticize others for having no evidence, but you are not exactly forthcoming with it.

What has that got to do with silly remarks slandering a whole set of people just because they disagree with your beliefs?

Slander: Is an untrue spoken statement about someone which is intended to damage their reputation.