Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[CG Didymus]

I am currently reading the Dawn Breakers and the introductory has geological charts and charts of succession in both Shia and Sunni.

There is copyrighted issues I think.

Regards Tony

Can you give a little rundown of the succession without the charts? If you could give any information on other movements in Islam that made similar claims as The Bab. I would imagine that those other movements are rather small, but it would be interesting to see what they have to say. Thanks Tony.

 

[CG Didymus]

Isaiah 2:3 "Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.4 The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

OP answered.

Regards Tony

I know you or one of the others has commented on this before, but it's pretty important, so if you could give a Baha'i explanation on some of these prophesies again. The "mountain", "Zion", and "Jerusalem", I was taught, was all talking about the same place... that is where the temple is, that is where Jesus is supposed to return and that is where the "gate" that faces east is. The "law" is not going out of Zion and the "word" of the LORD is not going out of Jerusalem. No one is judging the nations and settling disputes from Jerusalem. And no is beating their swords into plowshares.

Because of that, it makes it difficult for Christians to believe that the "end" has already happened... that "Jesus" has already returned. What is the Baha'i explanation. Thanks again Tony.

 

[Deeje]

adrian009 said: ↑

Hey, I'm well acquainted with the God of Abraham. He's the same God I worship too. Of course you don't believe that.​

If each religion describes and defines this One God differently, then it's not necessarily the same God.

According to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, the one true God of the Bible is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is also the God of Jesus Christ.

When Judaism rejected their Messiah, after centuries of disobedience, they then lost Yahweh as their God. They had abandoned him way too many times to be forgiven by just relying on their lineage. Jesus said that it was over for them. The God of Abraham no longer recognizes them as his people. (Matthew 23:37-39) This of course, they will hotly deny...but it doesn't matter. The die is cast. There is nothing preventing individuals out of any nation or belief system from coming to know the true God. (Acts of the apostles 10:34-35)

Baha'is may say that they worship the same God but they are an offshoot of Islam, not Judaism. The promise to Abraham was to be fulfilled in Isaac, not Ishmael. Their prophet is not my prophet and because their god is the god of Islam, he is not my god either.

Christendom's god is a trinity, so he is not the god we worship......there is no such god.

There are literally thousands of gods in different belief systems of this world, but in reality, there is only one true God who created all things. If we are genuine in our search for him, he will find us.

This God would not have a bar of those false gods, nor the people who support beliefs systems in opposition to him, his laws and to his incoming Kingdom.

 

[Deeje]

We just got started. (about 5 years) Kids all moved out, so we had this big empty unused house, and we're too lazy to downsize, and I like my garden. So renting a couple of rooms was the obvious solution ... travel money.

Sorry guys, not the thread for this discussion...can you take it to PM....thanks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If you have time, and I hope you do, could you do something similar about how Islam evolved and eventually led to the sect of Shia that led to The Bab and Baha'u'llah?

It would be good if @Tony Bristow-Stagg could cobble something together from Dawn Breakers. Otherwise I'll work on it when I've got some time. It would be helpful if you had a few more specific questions.

In regards to the JWs I thought it interesting to better understand the conditions that led to 'both' the expectation of the Return of Christ and how the JW movement fits in. The Dawn Breakers certainly captures the social millieu from which the Babi movement arose. Its essential reading for any Baha'i and a good read for anyone investigating the Baha'i Faith.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

We just got started. (about 5 years) Kids all moved out, so we had this big empty unused house, and we're too lazy to downsize, and I like my garden. So renting a couple of rooms was the obvious solution ... travel money.

Our situation is similar. Big house...daughter married and has her own house...too lazy to downsize (and what would I do with the horses?) but leery about getting into renting out anything again.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know you or one of the others has commented on this before, but it's pretty important, so if you could give a Baha'i explanation on some of these prophesies again. The "mountain", "Zion", and "Jerusalem", I was taught, was all talking about the same place... that is where the temple is, that is where Jesus is supposed to return and that is where the "gate" that faces east is. The "law" is not going out of Zion and the "word" of the LORD is not going out of Jerusalem. No one is judging the nations and settling disputes from Jerusalem. And no is beating their swords into plowshares.

Because of that, it makes it difficult for Christians to believe that the "end" has already happened... that "Jesus" has already returned. What is the Baha'i explanation. Thanks again Tony.

This becomes quite a detailed explanation, that I will keep condensed with a few thoughts.

The way I see it we must consider other biblical passages to give us a broader view on what the specifics may be.

Consider when Christ first came all things were made new, 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Then we can consider what it says about Jerusalem in Revelation 21:2, "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband." Note it talks about a New Jerusalem and all things made new.

Consider the common interpretation of the name Jerusalem is "The City of Peace" or "Abode of Peace"

So we need a Mountain that will be the New Zion, we Need a city that will be the new Jerusalem, we need a promised Temple, a Gate and the word and law issuing forth that supports swords being changed to plowshares.

Now we can consider the prophecy that says Mt Carmel will be blessed, will bloom and shall see the 'Glory of the Lord'.

Thus we have a Mountain of the Lord where all nations flow up to the tomb of the Gate, the seat of the Universal House of Justice where the law goes out from Zion, where swords are now plowshares, we can have the new Jerusalem "The City of Peace" now the city of Haifa (The new Jerusalem is the new Message)

The temple is Baha'u'llah and this is what He has written;

"..Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words “Be and it is”.

A Picture says a thousand words;

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, good luck, and I hope you find the perfect tenants quickly.

Thanks, me too.

 

[Trailblazer]

We just got started. (about 5 years) Kids all moved out, so we had this big empty unused house, and we're too lazy to downsize, and I like my garden. So renting a couple of rooms was the obvious solution ... travel money.

Join the crowd. We bought this house 10 years ago because we had 19 cats and that was too many for the house we were living in (the one that is now a rental). This house is about twice that size and we needed it 10 years ago with al those cats, but since then 12 cats have passed on so we would have had only 7 cats but we adopted three cats so we now have 10 cats. But we do not need a house this big for two people and 10 cats so we do not even use half the house anymore (the downstairs).

I rationalize that a good reason to keep this house is because we have no children so in our older age if necessary we could have a nursing assistant living downstairs, since it could be made fully self sufficient if we just added some kitchen appliances to the large laundry room.

If we needed the money we could rent the downstairs right now, but we are private people so we do not want anyone else in the house. That of course would be different if we were ever unable to care for ourselves, and needed the nursing assistance. It would be far preferable and cheaper to stay in this house and have a nursing assistant living here than going into a nursing home.

Meanwhile, I do not think we are lazy, we just don't like moving and see no reason to move because we can afford to keep this house. We do not heat the downstairs so it does not cost anything to have it. The only problem we have had is that the mice made themselves at home in one bedroom and we are still in the process of cleaning up that big mess they made.

 

[Trailblazer]

A Picture says a thousand words.

A thousands words most people are too blind to see.
How can anyone who knows the Bible be this blind?

 

[Trailblazer]

If each religion describes and defines this One God differently, then it's not necessarily the same God.

It does not matter what people believe or worship. Just because different religions have different ideas about what God is like, that does not mean there is more than one God. That is patently illogical.

There is ONLY ONE GOD, the God who revealed all the major religions. I am sorry if some Christians believe they have the only true God and nobody else knows who that God is... They are simply wrong.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because of that, it makes it difficult for Christians to believe that the "end" has already happened... that "Jesus" has already returned. What is the Baha'i explanation. Thanks again Tony.

It is also good to consider that prophecy also unfolds over time, there is not just a day of miraculous unfolding.

Thus the Guardian in a talk given to some pilgrims was reported to have said that catastrophic events as described by biblical prophecy can still be a material reality.

Regards Tony

Can you give a little rundown of the succession without the charts? If you could give any information on other movements in Islam that made similar claims as The Bab. I would imagine that those other movements are rather small, but it would be interesting to see what they have to say. Thanks Tony.

A brief extract...I'm no speed typist

In the Shiah line there is the line of the 12 Imams (Church of the 12)

1 Ali-ibn-i-Abi-Talib - Assassinated a.d 661
2 Hasan, son of Ali and Fatimih - poisoned a.d 670
3 Husayn, son of Ali and Fatimih - killed at Karbila a.d 680
4 Ali, son of Husayn and Shahribanu - poisoned
5 Muhammad-Baqir - poisoned
6 Ja far-i-Sadiq - poisoned
7 Musa-Kazim - poisoned
8 Ali-ibn-i-Musar-Rida - poisoned a.h 203
9 Muhammad-Taqi - poisoned a.h 220
10 Ali-Naqi - poisoned a.h 254
11 Hasan-i-Askari - poisoned a.h 260
12 Muhammad - called the Imam-Mihdi a.h 260 - Held that he did not die and will come forth heralded by Jesus Christ.

I think this is Sunni Line

Abu-Bakris-Siddiq-ibn-i-Abi-Quhafih 632-34 a.d
Umar-ibn-i'l-Khattab 634-44 a.d
Uthman-ibn-i-Affan 644-56 a.d
Ali-ibn-i-Abi-Talib 656-61 a.d
Umayyad Caliphs 661-749 a.d
Abbasid Caliphs 749-1258 a.d
Fatimite Caliphs 1258-1517 a.d
Ottomon Caliphs 1517-1924 a.d

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

Its a lot of cut and paste from Wikipedia but I think it captures some of the essential background and millieu leading to the formation of the Jehovah Witness movement.

LOL...all you had to do was ask Adrian. In "the time of the end" God was going to 'cleanse, whiten and refine' his people and supply them with "knowledge" that only they would understand. The "wicked" would go on in their way, unclean in their worship and happy to stay that way. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

Seeds of this knowledge were sown at that time, and some were ready for the restoration of true worship that God was going to bring about. Christendom was corrupt and its unscriptural doctrines had gone unchallenged long enough.

We firstly have to thank the man responsible for the Reformation....Martin Luther, because this gave the Bible back to the common man.....Luther didn't intend to start a reformation, but he changed history by breaking the power of the corrupt Roman Church. That was the start. But Protestantism was not going to unify Christianity....just the opposite in fact. It broke it up into many bickering factions, who all claimed that their particular leader had the truth. So again we have confusion as to who was teaching the truth. The devil has never changed his tactics. How do you hide a tree...plant a forest! The bigger the forest, the more confusion you see.

The last days of this present system were to be characterized by a "sign" that Jesus gave his disciples to indicate that he had begun to rule as King. (Matthew 24:3-14) We have seen all the features clearly since 1914....a year calculated from Daniel's prophesy.

In his parable of the' wheat and the weeds' we see how the scenario was to be played out....Jesus planted seeds of truth in his disciples, but while "men were sleeping" (either in death or spiritually asleep), the devil sowed seeds of a well known and poisonous weed in the Middle East....in all probability, bearded darnel.

In its early growing stages it looks for all the world like real wheat, but as the harvest time nears, the characteristics of the two plants show which is which, and then each is easily identifiable. This is the time of the separation, which Jesus says he will carry out. He likened this to a shepherd separating sheep from goats.

The angels are said to be the reapers in this harvest, who first gather the "weeds" and burn them in the fire. Then the master has them gather his wheat into his storehouse.

If we take the parable of the wheat and the weeds at face value, then its the difference that makes the wheat stand out from the weeds. The two do not resemble one another at all at this point in time.

When we look at the churches of Christendom, what do we see? They are all basically the same....same doctrines, same tired tired old rituals and only minor differences separating them. At this time of the end, we have those who do not resemble Christendom at all. Among these is the wheat....and viva la difference!

We believe that we are the present day wheat because the one thing that Jesus commanded his disciples to do, was to go out and preach the kingdom message to everyone. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
There is no other global brotherhood who is preaching about "the good news of God's Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus said they would. And we have done this consistently for over 100 years. Have any of the churches of Christendom called on you lately? I have never had them call on me.

If you ask them what the good news of the Kingdom is, you will most likely get a blank stare. They do not preach because they have no message. They do not preach because they do not have Christ's backing. He said he would be 'with' his disciples in this work right up to the end of the age.....we believe that we are staring down the barrel of the great tribulation right now.....soon to take an unsuspecting world by surprise. (Matthew 24:37-39)

That is how we got here..... That is what we believe.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I disagree. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies written about his role. He even purposely orchestrated some of the features so that they would be fulfilled as written.

Here's a list of prophecies the Jews would agree are prophetic.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

Most clearly haven't been fulfilled at all so I agree the Jews have a point.

Jesus said at Luke 22:37..."For I tell you that what is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘He was counted with lawless ones.’ For this is being fulfilled concerning me.”

If you listen to Jewish sources, of course you will get a different story. According to their interpretation of scripture, he did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophesies. Not because he didn't fulfill them, but because he didn't do so in the way they thought he should.

Jesus gave his disciples spiritual liberation, whereas the religious leaders were expecting a powerful political leader who would liberate the Jews from the Roman yoke and re-establish God's Kingdom on earth....(with themselves in positions of authority, no doubt) Any wonder they rejected him....not to mention his repeated castigation of them as the world's worst hypocrites. (Matthew 23)

I didn't realise the JWs were so anti-semetic.

Luke 22:37 refers to specific propheses being fulfilled in association with Christ's death, not 'all' prophecies.

Matthew 23 is certainly damning of the Pharisees but to apply the same verses to the Jews in this modern era nearly two thousand years later beggars belief! This type of attitude was a significant factor that led to the Jewish holocaust under Hitler's Germany. I honestly think you need to spend more time studying history.

I disagree again. Judaism has continued to be in denial about their Messiah and even about their flawed interpretation of scripture. They still think that their relationship with Abraham is significant, but Jesus put paid to that and so did John the Baptist before him. (Matthew 3:7-10; Matthew 23:37-39) Being a fleshly Jew was no longer important once the Messiah came. It is the reason why the Jews have not had a Temple since the destruction of the last one, as God never commanded it to be rebuilt.....because it was no longer necessary.

God's promise to Abraham included all nations receiving a blessing through the sacrifice of this special agent of God who was to come through Abraham's family line, specifically through the tribe of Judah.

I agree that the Jews failed to recognise Christ and a new Covenant was established through Christ. The Jews however do continue to have a relationship with God through Moses. I believe God has forgiven the Jews for their rejection of Christ. I don't see all the Jews damned to hell and under the influence of Satan, along with all the other religions and apostate Christian denominations (ie everyone but the JWs).

I agree that a physical temple is no longer necessary as Jesus established a temple through His own self as did Baha'u'llah.

The God I believe in has outstanding qualities of love, forgiveness, justice and compassion. You seem more preoccupied with God being ethnocentric, JW centric, vengeful and judgmental.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Much of it is literal and some of it is figurative. Once you know the Bible's overall message, the differences become clear. It is one story from Genesis to Revelation....for us, we need no other prophets or scripture. All we need to know is contained in God's word. We don't need to bridge faiths or to ignore scripture to arrive at our truth. Its all in one book.....with only one genuine faith. (Ephesians 4:5-6)

Ephesians 4:5-6 simply affirms there is One God, not multiple gods or no god. Jesus also said that man needs every word of God has spoken Matthew 4:4. For Muslims and Baha'is God has clearly spoken through other Prophets since Christ. Christ said He would return (Matthew 24:29-30). He spoke of "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16.

Two thousand years on, we agree that Christianity is hopelessly divided and corrupted. The extent to which the JWs are part of the problem or part of the solution is where we disagree. I find it interesting that the JWs are trying to restore a purified original Christianity. To me such an endeavour makes as much sense as the Jews trying to find an original purified Judaism. Eventually both parties will need to look beyond a theological work that emerged from an historic time very different from the modern era. Trying to recreate what work in the first few centuries will prove an exercise in frustration and futility IMHO.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Disagree again. Peter was entrusted with the "keys of the Kingdom" but nowhere is it said that he was above any of the other apostles as a successor to Jesus. Do you recall the argument that the apostles kept having over who among them was the greatest? Jesus told them that the greatest among them was the servant. (Luke 22:24-27)

The foundations of the heavenly Kingdom include all 12 apostles. (Revelation 21:14) None has supremacy.

Luke 22:24-27 is a counsel about humility, not succession after Christ passes away (John 21:15-17 and Matthew 16:13-20).

Revelation 21:14 is about a time of world peace with God's kingdom on earth being established so the verse is a metaphor for all the tribes of the world being united. It can't possibly be about succession after Christ died as it was written 60 - 70 years after Christ was crucified.

Since there were no "Popes" in original Christianity, I'm afraid that Roman Catholicism and Christianity are not remotely connected and never were, according to my understanding. Protestantism is just the daughters of the same mother.....all subscribe to the same core doctrines...the ones we discarded as unchristian teachings over 100 years ago.

The same situation occurred in Judaism.....by the time Jesus arrived, it was not remotely like the faith that was given to Israel at Mount Sinai. Jewish rabbinical teachers had added so much in their interpretation of the Tanach that it no longer resembled what God taught. It did not reflect the reasonableness or spirit of the Law but turned it into nit-picking legalism.

The devil has his way of leading men to distort the truth so that lies come to be accepted as doctrines....truth comes to be viewed as lies. (1 John 5:19) He is a master deceiver....believe it or not.

The term Pope simply referred to one who like Peter was the head of the church and appointed for a special purpose. It was an important aspect that maintained the unity of the church for centuries. The role as legitamcy from the words of Christ himself as above.

Christianity was in trouble long before then. By the start of the second century, the foretold apostasy began to infiltrate to undermine the truth of the gospels. By the 4th century, they were in the right state of spiritual drowsiness to accept the counterfeit Christianity offered by Constantine. Christendom was born and the rest, as they say, is history. Divisions have never been mended, and after the Reformation, "Christianity" (or what passed for it) was divided even more into the ridiculous state it is in now. This was foretold, so no surprises there.

There were challenges from an early stage I agree. We could even take it back to the betrayal of Judas Iscariot. Other early problems were Gnosticism and Marcion. So the need to maintain the purity and integrity of Christ's Teachings has always been a promiment concern. Despite the problems with the Nicene Creed it created a unity of sorts. The 4th century also witnessed the agreement of biblical Canon which has been hugely important for the Protestant reformation in trying to establish Christianity's true roots as it had clearly strayed for anyone with eyes to see throug the Middle ages. Its been over 400 years since the KJV was published. Various denominations have been trying to find a purified Christianity since then. The JWs seem to be just another group trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Deeje]

Here's a list of prophecies the Jews would agree are prophetic.

Here is my list.....

"OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT

Prophesy

Event

Fulfillment

Ge 49:10
Born of the tribe of Judah
Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14
Ps 132:11; Isa 9:7; 11:1, 10
From the family of David the son of Jesse
Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23; Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12
Mic 5:2
Born in Bethlehem
Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42
Isa 7:14
Born of a virgin
Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35
Jer 31:15
Babes killed after his birth
Mt 2:16-18
Ho 11:1
Called out of Egypt
Mt 2:15
Mal 3:1; 4:5; Isa 40:3
Way prepared before
Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14; 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76; 3:3-6; 7:27; Joh 1:20-23; 3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4
Isa 61:1, 2
Commissioned
Lu 4:18-21
Isa 9:1, 2
Spoke with illustrations
Mt 13:11-13, 31-35
Isa 53:4
Carried our sicknesses
Mt 8:16, 17
Ps 69:9
Zealous for Jehovah’s house
Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17
Isa 42:1-4
As Jehovah’s servant, would not wrangle in streets
Mt 12:14-21
Isa 53:1

 

[Deeje]

continued....

Not believed in
Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16
Zec 9:9; Ps 118:26
Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an ***; hailed as king and one coming in Jehovah’s name
Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11; Lu 19:28-38; Joh 12:12-15
Isa 28:16; 53:3; Ps 69:8; 118:22, 23
Rejected but becomes chief cornerstone
Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14; 4:11; 1Pe 2:7
Isa 8:14, 15
Becomes stone of stumbling
Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33
Ps 41:9; 109:8
One apostle unfaithful, betrays him
Mt 26:47-50; Joh 13:18, 26-30; Ac 1:16-20
Zec 11:12
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Mt 26:15; 27:3-10; Mr 14:10, 11
Zec 13:7
Disciples scatter
Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32
Ps 2:1, 2
Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against anointed of Jehovah
Mt 27:1, 2; Mr 15:1, 15; Lu 23:10-12; Ac 4:25-28
Isa 53:8
Tried and condemned
Mt 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26; Joh 18:12-14, 19-24, 28-40; 19:1-16
Ps 27:12
Use of false witnesses
Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59
Isa 53:7
Silent before accusers
Mt 27:12-14; Mr 14:61; 15:4, 5; Lu 23:9
Ps 69:4
Hated without cause
Lu 23:13-25; Joh 15:24, 25
Isa 50:6; Mic 5:1
Struck, spit on
Mt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Joh 19:3
Ps 22:16, ftn
Impaled
Mt 27:35; Mr 15:24, 25; Lu 23:33; Joh 19:18, 23; 20:25, 27
Ps 22:18
Lots cast for garments
Mt 27:35; Joh 19:23, 24
Isa 53:12
Numbered with sinners
Mt 26:55, 56; 27:38; Lu 22:37
Ps 22:7, 8
Reviled while on stake
Mt 27:39-43; Mr 15:29-32
Ps 69:21
Given vinegar and gall
Mt 27:34, 48; Mr 15:23, 36
Ps 22:1
Forsaken by God to enemies
Mt 27:46; Mr 15:34
Ps 34:20; Ex 12:46
No bones broken
Joh 19:33, 36
Isa 53:5; Zec 12:10
Pierced
Mt 27:49; Joh 19:34, 37; Re 1:7
Isa 53:5, 8, 11, 12
Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins and open way to righteous standing with God
Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29; Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1Co 15:3; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pe 2:24; 1Jo 2:2
Isa 53:9
Buried with the rich
Mt 27:57-60; Joh 19:38-42
Jon 1:17; 2:10
In grave parts of three days, then resurrected
Mt 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23; 27:64; 28:1-7; Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:3-8
Ps 16:8-11, ftn
Raised before corruption
Ac 2:25-31; 13:34-37
Ps 2:7
Jehovah declares him His Son by spirit begetting and by resurrection
Mt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11; Lu 3:21, 22; Ac 13:33; Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5; 5:5"

Messiah — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I think he fulfilled enough of them according to this list.

 

[Deeje]

I didn't realise the JWs were so anti-semetic.

We are no more anti-Semitic than Jesus was. Telling the truth is not anti-semitism. Israel were serial covenant breakers.....why do you want to sugar coat it?

Luke 22:37 refers to specific propheses being fulfilled in association with Christ's death, not 'all' prophecies.

It was an example of Jesus purposely fulfilling prophesy, which is why I mentioned it.

Matthew 23 is certainly damning of the Pharisees but to apply the same verses to the Jews in this modern era nearly two thousand years later beggars belief! This type of attitude was a significant factor that led to the Jewish holocaust under Hitler's Germany. I honestly think you need to spend more time studying history.

If the Jewish people still follow the teachings of the Pharisees then how do you not apply them today?
Have Jesus' words somehow lost their meaning? This is not hatred of the Jews...it is simply telling the truth.

We were in the holocaust with the Jews, remember? Many of them became Jehovah's Witnesses after the war because of seeing the way my brothers remained steadfast under severe trial. Jews were exterminated like vermin by Hitler....but he gave JW's options to renounce their faith or be executed. Many of my brothers lost their lives in those camps. We spoke out against Hitler and refused to salute him. Please do your own homework. We have no hatred for Jews, we preach to them too.....even in Israel. It is the Jewish religion that we have issues with, not the people.

I agree that the Jews failed to recognise Christ and a new Covenant was established through Christ. The Jews however do continue to have a relationship with God through Moses. I believe God has forgiven the Jews for their rejection of Christ. I don't see all the Jews damned to hell and under the influence of Satan, along with all the other religions and apostate Christian denominations (ie everyone but the JWs).

Jesus words....at Matthew 23:37-39....
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’"

For the last 2,000 years, have the Jews acknowledged the one who came in Jehovah's name?
Her house was "abandoned". She paid the price for her disobedience and as a nation, God did not forgive her, because she has never repented. Individuals from the Jewish nation have come to re-establish their connection to God through Jesus Christ, but as a nation God gave them back to the world. They have neither his blessing nor his backing, but are just one of the blood spilling nations, like all the rest. (Isaiah 1:15)
That is just a fact, backed up by scripture.

I agree that a physical temple is no longer necessary as Jesus established a temple through His own self as did Baha'u'llah.

According to the Bible, the Temple where Jesus and his under-priests now serve is in heaven. There will never be a need for a physical Temple on earth again.

The God I believe in has outstanding qualities of love, forgiveness, justice and compassion.

The God I believe in has these qualities too, but his justice is not tempered by sentiment. He forgives only on the basis of repentance....there has never been any repentance on the part of the Jewish nation concerning the murder of Jesus Christ. They still deny to this day that he was the Messiah. God applied his love, forgiveness and compassion to this nation for hundreds of years, whilst time after time they failed him....then after they murdered his son, his patience ran out. His justice is all that is left. Again that is just fact.

You seem more preoccupied with God being ethnocentric, JW centric, vengeful and judgmental.

We are not vengeful or judgmental....we just know the God we worship.

"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” (Romans 12:17-19; Hebrews 10:30)

God is the one who seeks vengeance on his enemies. We leave that to him.

Nahum 1:2....
Jehovah is a God who requires exclusive devotion and takes vengeance;
Jehovah takes vengeance and is ready to express his wrath.
Jehovah takes vengeance against his foes,
And he stores up wrath for his enemies."

Have you turned God into your own version of him? If you make yourself God's enemy, you can expect his anger. He does not take kindly to those who water down his word.

This is the danger of not acquainting yourself fully with personality of the God of the Bible. Straddling so many belief systems does not allow you to get to know the true God at all. He makes no secret of the fact that he will mete out justice. (1 Peter 4:16-19) We don't ever want to be on the wrong side of that

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus did not come to start a new faith....he came to clean up the old one and to teach the "lost sheep" how to worship their God acceptably. By instituting a new covenant (something foretold in their scripture) on the night before his death, Jesus dispensed with the old covenant and released them from "the curse" of the Law. (Galatians 3:10-14) He had fulfilled it just as he said.

To us, Jesus was God's last prophet and the Christian scriptures (particularly Revelation) were to take his disciples 1000 years into the future. Why would God confuse people by introducing prophets from Gentile religions when he had kept Israel screened off from what he identified as false worship? The promise to Abraham was to be carried through Isaac and Jacob, not Ishmael. Israel was the only nation with whom God made his covenant. They were the only ones under his Law.

A new Faith was started as prophecised (Zechariah 14:1-9). Jesus brought a new Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) and the Old Covenant was no longer relevant to those who followed Christ (Hebrew 8:13). The Old Covenant was clearly still relevant to the Jews and remains so. Mosaic law was no longer applicable in its entirety. Christ and His Apostles were right to abrogate it. The fact remains that Jesus brought a new Covenent (Luke 22:19-20) and with it a new Faith and Religion. It wasn't simply a clean upor reformation of the old.

God blessed Ishmael too and from him made a nation. There is nothing in Genesis to indicate that a prophet could not come from the lineage of Ishmael. God loves and guides all people and is not an ethnocentric God. Why would a loving God abandon the descents of Ishmael when He clearly promised to make a Great nation from Him (Genesis 22:17-18) meaning a Great prophet will arise from His lineage.

God has never backed Christendom because she is the mirror image of Judaism. When Jesus comes as judge he will reject the majority of Christians as those he "never knew" for the simple reason that they apostatized from the truth that he taught very early in the piece. (Matthew 7:21-23) Only at "the time of the end" was God going to 'cleanse and refine' his worshippers. Those who refused the cleansing would not be given insight or understanding about anything. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Christendom still teaches the same old lies.

You claim to know the mind of God and the future? You make it sound as if you have some special knowledge or insight into how God operates and what is to happen. I really think Matthew 7:21-23 is just as applicable to the JWs as other faiths if not more so. Especially given your tendancy to avoid working alongside others towards the betterment of the world. Of course you believe its all going to come crashing down as a literal apocalypse unfolds. There may well be another catastrophe as there has been through the twentieth century. Often we are judged by God not for what we do but what we fail to do. The JWs have a tendancy to inaction as you wait for supernatural events to unfold that have no precedence in history or the phenomenal world. So perhaps one of the clearest and greatest theological problems with the JWs is their interpretation of Daniel and the book of Revelation. If the JWs are wrong, and I believe they are, ironically they deprive themselves of the favour of God. The wrath of God they so freely imagine afflicts everyone but themselves, will be closer than they know (Matthew 7:1-4).

Your interpretation is interesting but far from the truth as I understand it. I do not see how anything that comes from Ishmael is even in the picture. He is clearly not the heir of the promise.

My take on history is mainstream. The first University established was the House of wisdom in Bagdad as far back as the 8th or 9th century.

House of Wisdom - Wikipedia

Copernicus bebunked the geocentric view of the universe as believed by Christians for over a thousand years and replaced it with the heliocentric view based on the work of Islamic scholars.

2007HisSc..45...65R Page 65

Cosmology in medieval Islam - Wikipedia

Many terms in medicine, astronomy and commerce have Arabic derivatives reflecting the influences of Islam on Western culture.

Islamic world contributions to Medieval Europe - Wikipedia

At least take the time to read the links. Understanding world history is vitally important for a proper understanding of faith and religion.